[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by GeneralJazz

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/zBG...t-account.html

RBI removes the Rs.5000 cash deposit limit for KYC compliant bank accounts.

The bank chaps may have landed themselves into a bigger soup. How many banks, esp PSU renew/redo the KYCs every two years? So now if the chap is caught so will be his bank officials. I personally think KYC every two years is silly since both PAN and UID are permanent in nature, and can be verified digitally.

[KA09_BIKER_GPER]

Pardon my limited knowledge of the law.

What really happens after someone gets caught, say with 100Cr in hard cash and 25kgs of Gold ?

Where does that money/gold go ?
To whom does it belong to now ?
What is the punishment ?
Does the person face jail time ?
Does the person pay some sort of penalty ?
Does the person loose his job(govt/private employed) ?

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by KA09_BIKER_GPER

Pardon my limited knowledge of the law.

What really happens after someone gets caught, say with 100Cr in hard cash and 25kgs of Gold ?
...

The end result depends on how well this SOMEONE is able to use Money (Yes more money) and power to get out of the situation with minimum damage. And no institution is sacred including Income Tax.

[perty]

Originally Posted by KA09_BIKER_GPER

What really happens after someone gets caught, say with 100Cr in hard cash and 25kgs of Gold ?

...

In theory :
-> The money/gold is confiscated by the raiding agency (ED/IT/CBI) and stored in a strong room somewhere. Cases are filed. The courts will decide if the person is guilty and if so, the punishment for corruption could range from 3 months to 5 years of imprisonment along with a fine.

In practice :

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by perty

In theory :
-> The money/gold is confiscated by the raiding agency (ED/IT/CBI) and stored in a strong room somewhere. Cases are filed. The courts will decide if the person is guilty and if so, the punishment for corruption could range from 3 months to 5 years of imprisonment along with a fine.

In practice :

This implies that the person is guilty till proven innocent. Is this legal, confiscating money and gold without proving that it's illegal? Not in the current "punisher " mentality, but generally?

[sachinpk]

Originally Posted by mayankk

This implies that the person is guilty till proven innocent. Is this legal, confiscating money and gold without proving that it's illegal? Not in the current "punisher " mentality, but generally?

That money, gold etc. is basically "evidence". And evidence can be kept in strong rooms, till the courts hear the case and pass their verdict. If the prosecution cannot prove the case, the money and gold back goes back to the owner.

[drmohitg]

In reality usually once the media created storm settles down, a deal will be reached with money exchanging hands and the final report will document much lesser quantities of gold, cash etc.

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

- PSU banks - they are gonna be big beneficiaries here. Hopefully they are gonna start rolling and trigger the larger economy into business

Incase you wondered how banks are going to benefit and in turn the larger economy.
A v. v. good read: http://ttrammohan.blogspot.in/2016/1...rm-indian.html

[sgiitk]

My own guess, once the next salary rush is over, say by the tenth then things should ease out. barring the NCR region, no real queues in the banks and/or the ATMs. I personally expect a major relaxation in both the ATM limits (to say 10,000) and cash withdrawals (say 50,000) to be announced. I do not expect a total relaxation in a single shot.

[sachinpk]

1) ED finds Rs 104 cr in BSP a/c
2) Govt may bring in ordinance to legalise note ban
3) Major parties decline Cong invite for meeting

[longhorn]

Originally Posted by sukhoi30

It is not always easy in our country to hold a moral high ground. I remember when I go to a hardware shop, jewelers shop, local cloth shop etc, and try to pay them by card, they used to only laugh at me, as if I was committing a crime by not keeping enough cash with me..

While I agree in principle with what you say, the root of the problem lies elsewhere. Ease of doing business in this country is next to zilch. You need of get a hundred approvals/clearances to start a small business, with no one but 'Gandhi' speaking at every stage. Even after the business is opened, there are more Gandhis needed during inspections, which are nothing but a sham. Where can the business man fit these 'expenses' in his accounts books. To be fair the current tax structure is nothing but a loot of the salaried class. The government, instead of attacking the root of the problem, has assumed every citizen is guilty of holding black money, instead of trying to find out and bring the culprits to law. If the tax slabs were meaningful, people would be more than willing to pay. IMO, this is what the government should have aimed for.

[nowwhat?]

Originally Posted by sukhoi30

It is not always easy in our country to hold a moral high ground. I remember when I go to a hardware shop, jewelers shop, local cloth shop etc, and try to pay them by card, they used to only laugh at me, as if I was committing a crime by not keeping enough cash with me. They would simply say , "Sir, we prefer only cash. If you want, ATM is just opposite the road".
In fact, I did feel guilty in a way that I did not carry enough cash in my pocket. Never realized that I was party to a practice that was helping tax evaders.
But now, if I go to the same shops they say , "Sir, pay by cash or card?".
Definitely, there is some change on the ground. Now, I can also hold my head high and say , "I will pay by card only". If they refuse, I go to the next shop.

Around 7 years ago when we were bitten by the real estate bug, we checked out an apartment building that was under-construction in my area thinking we will move into a flat whenever we retire. Even though the real-estate market in Bangalore was red-hot back then, most of the flats there were unsold.

We met the builder, he quoted ₹45 lakhs but he wanted it ALL in cash. He refused to accept even part-payment by cheque, consequently Home Loan, etc. was out of the question. We were dumbfounded and decided to drop out.

It made no iota of sense to me back then to reverse-launder our white money to make it black so that the builder can evade tax. I certainly felt a loser back then as property prices subsequently appreciated, but I'm laughing all the way to the bank now. If I had purchased that flat, I would also have had to incur a hit on improper LTCG. Taking the moral high ground is becoming a lot easier now.

When I look at a number of builders in my area, all except the established ones have been hit by demonetization. Only those who corporatized their construction business seem to be surviving right now.

[binand]

Originally Posted by KA09_BIKER_GPER

What really happens after someone gets caught, say with 100Cr in hard cash and 25kgs of Gold ?

The money/gold is taken into custody by the "catching" officer. A notice is issued to the person hoarding it, to provide the source of the money/gold. It is conceivable that someone with a high enough income had a whim to hold Rs. 100 Cr. in cash (and 25 kg in gold), so this would be their chance ot explain that. The investigating officer will check their sources of income, expenses to make sure that they could possibly have that much left over, and if yes, the money+gold is released back to them. If they are unable to explain the money, it is confiscated and criminal proceedings as per applicable law is initiated.

Originally Posted by mayankk

This implies that the person is guilty till proven innocent. Is this legal, confiscating money and gold without proving that it's illegal? Not in the current "punisher " mentality, but generally?

If someone is found with currency of Rs. 100 crore, then it gives rise to a legal concept called a "reasonable suspicion", so then the "burden of proof" now rests with the person to prove that all this money is legally earned and tax paid and so on. During any investigation, the burden of proof switches between the official and this person several times, with each iteration raising the bar of proof by that much. The theoretical aspects are well-documented and balances society's requirements vis-a-vis the individual's rights, but the practical implementation in India I suspect leaves a lot to be desired.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

In reality usually once the media created storm settles down, a deal will be reached with money exchanging hands and the final report will document much lesser quantities of gold, cash etc.

If the final report differs from the inventory then the investigating officer will have a lot to explain; so such a deal has to be struck before the inventory is taken (usually during the raid time itself).

[sgiitk]

@sachinpk; At the moment the money is a liability on the books of the RBI. It can only be extinguished after there is some act of the Govt. cancelling the 'unsurrendered' currency. Then it is a bonus to the RBI and the Govt.

[aaggoswami]

01-Jan-2017 is about to be here, barely a few days away. As the tax payers and citizens continue to hope for things to get smooth, a few things remain unanswered.

What amount of black money is elicited ? How much percentage of total money deposited ?
Will there be legal steps against those who have stashed the money ?
Can we expect details of all political party's spending prior to this move on Nov 8, 2016 ?
Why not bring the political parties under ambit of RTI ? Any deadline or something ?

The whole move, IMO, has not brought forward solution to real problem which includes corruption in govt. too. What is achieved is best known to the govt., and real benefits, if any, will have to be observed for.

Remember, the govt. wanted to tax the already taxed PF, and "De-regulated" fuel prices are known to us all.

Originally Posted by longhorn

Ease of doing business in this country is next to zilch. You need of get a hundred approvals/clearances to start a small business, with no one but 'Gandhi' speaking at every stage. Even after the business is opened, there are more Gandhis needed during inspections, which are nothing but a sham. Where can the business man fit these 'expenses' in his accounts books.

To be fair the current tax structure is nothing but a loot of the salaried class. The government, instead of attacking the root of the problem, has assumed every citizen is guilty of holding black money, instead of trying to find out and bring the culprits to law. If the tax slabs were meaningful, people would be more than willing to pay. IMO, this is what the government should have aimed for.

Very true. Where I used to work earlier, we used to ship containers. For each container there would be inspections carried out by Excise. And for each container they took Rs. 2000-2500/-, demand was for over Rs. 5000/-. A few of us were always kept out of such inspections as my team feared our reaction for such bribe. And bribe for what ? Creating employment ? Exporting to N.America and Europe ?

These excise guys have so much rights, there is no point in complaining. Will the, err, any govt. act against these govt. employees ? What would be the scale of such transactions ? Who is responsible if these random acts of bribe continue in new notes ?

The govt., or rather any govt. in India blames citizens, and they have different rules or vision for govt. employees and those employed in private sector. Why so ?
The recent data of only 3.65 crore citizens filing ITR is shocking. Less than 3%. Source : Link
There are more car buyers than tax payers in India. I am aware of "loans", but then we are not taking into account the used car market which is quite large.
Corruption in govt. has to be checked first.