[AltoLXI]

How defaulting tenants are made to leave.

http://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-talles...vat-1520845632

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

I have a question to the owners here who listed their difficulties.
Children damaging the walls or some sort of stains or scratches etc are granted to be present when you are renting out. Isnt this sort of thing covered in your agreement ? I think the amount required to paint the apartment again after the tenant moves out should be written on to the agreement and that should take care of minor damages like this.

Yes it is all covered in the agreement. And we go by it. However, we do not charge the full amount, since that will wipe off the advance amount and then lead to such initiatives like these. It is a mutually agreed sum of money, unless the tenant is really hell bent on not paying up for the damage caused. The exception is when they have stayed for a long time, ie more than 3-4 years. Its obvious that the paint itself would have aged by then and hence thats mentioned in the agreement too. The problem is the short term tenants. Its not financially feasible to get the interiors painted and cleaned once a year or two.

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

When you give your apartment for somebody else to live in, I think you should reset your expectations. Sparkling tiles, squeaky clean bathroom ware, clean walls etc may not be expected from every tenant, not particularly because they deliberately want to damage. Some people do not care that much about pristine furnishings.

This is the issue. It is not like we go and inspect the house every month and then instruct the tenants to be clean. That is not correct. You live the way you want to. But leave it the way you take it. That is basic decency. If I leave a dirty house to a tenant, I cant expect them to clean up things for me. However, when I give a clean house, I want a clean house in return. If not cleaning during the period of tenancy, at least get it cleaned before one leaves. Thats the case anywhere not only in our country or bangalore. However, if an owner really doesnt mind being left with a dirty place, then thats their goodwill. It cant be the norm.

[Altocumulus]

But isn't it a norm in Bangalore to deduct 1 month's rent from the deposit for repainting the house? So the owner does get the money to repaint his house.

I think there should be a cap to deposit, like 6 month's or 1 Lakh whichever is lower. 1L is still considered a substantial amount and that should mitigate the owners have. 10 month's rent on a house of 25k rent is quite a lot to be blocked by anyone.

[Parth46]

C'mon guys, Waseem has kicked off a great initiative here, IMHO.

Generally, deduction equaling one month's rent is mentioned in the agreement - this amount is earmarked for cleaning/painting/general maintenance etc at the time the tenant vacates the place. Children scribbling on the walls is obviously covered in this particular amount.

What causes problems is owners trying to increase that deduction amount citing reasons like any particular damage, the severity of which will always differ in the eyes of the two parties, and other miscellaneous items.

I've personally experienced cases where owners have provided really shoddy fittings/furnishings since they never intended to live in that place and only wanted to give it out on rent - in this case if things start crumbling even with careful usage whose fault is that?

A lot of times owners come up with excuses like "yahan aise hi hota hai" (Here things are like this only).

And I agree, this 10 month's deposit is daylight robbery. With rents anyway being sky-high, you need 2.5 lacs advance AND 25k rent for a 2 BHK?

I want to rent it, not make a down payment to buy it, thank you very much!

It's purely due to mismatches like these that shady orgs like Nestaway are thriving, making really captive situations for freshers, folks who've recently moved to the city etc. This extortion needs to stop.

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

Renting is a business, so you protect your capital with the right agreements. The fact that someone is renting means you can expect them to move out any time with sufficient notice. That it is not financially feasible to paint once in a year does not mean it automatically becomes feasible when you collect a ten month advance. How is the 10 month advance helping here ? Thru the interest it generates ?

Agree with you.

So basically owners want to have the best of everything - an asset that stays in shipshape condition forever at the tenant's expense, generates high rent, and is protected by the amazing 10 months deposit that can then be locked to further adjust things to their liking. Sorry for the harsh tone towards the person you quoted but that's the reality this PIL is trying to address.

The advance is kept floating in the banking system till perpetuity, benefiting the landlord, and the tenant loses out on the interest income as well. Double whammy.

Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD

I will refrain from quoting posts to avoid unnecessary arguments.I have learnt this on the RTO thread.Many people felt that a state is at liberty to frame its own laws and can tax vehicles whenever they want and the rest is history.

I am not any sort of a messiah.I am like any average joe or i say average Waseem.

Thanks for all your efforts. We are with you. Keep it up and god bless.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by audioholic

This is the issue. It is not like we go and inspect the house every month and then instruct the tenants to be clean. That is not correct. You live the way you want to. But leave it the way you take it. That is basic decency. If I leave a dirty house to a tenant, I cant expect them to clean up things for me. However, when I give a clean house, I want a clean house in return. If not cleaning during the period of tenancy, at least get it cleaned before one leaves. Thats the case anywhere not only in our country or bangalore. However, if an owner really doesnt mind being left with a dirty place, then thats their goodwill. It cant be the norm.

By clean house you mean a house that is clean or a house that looks exactly like how it looked when you got it from a builder ? Sanitaryware, furnishings, floors, tiles etc age over time. Include a cleaning plus painting sum in your rental agreement. The fact that somebody is renting a place means that they want that flexibility of moving around. Lets face it, the owner is never going to agree the cleaning/painting was proper if the tenant does it.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD

This kept increasing with time and hence i decided to take this up.

I have helped many people recover their deposits which were otherwise held up with the flat/house owners.

Most of them pay up immediately after an receiving an email with these golden words (I will be constrained to seek legal recourse and will file a case against you under section ***** ***** if you fail to return my deposit in next 7 working days.)
The remaining guys pay up after they receive a legal notice from a lawyer.
... i fail to understand what is so special about Bangalore.

I had sent a .. The PIL (It was actually a Writ Of Mandamus) was filed after the representation fell on deaf years.

Appreciate your efforts doing this. Its true that excessive deposits to the tune of 10 months doesn't strike logic.

Add to that the inconvenience when landlord wont return the deposit. Loss of interest amount on capital blocked is another aspect.

Originally Posted by sdp1975

The local goons ( with political affiliations , of course ) were called in. The tenant along with his family and belongings were thrown out in a day. I hear that 50K was paid to get this done - much cheaper and faster than the so called "legal system" . This was a few years ago and the latest inflation adjusted figure would be over 70K for sure.

Considering that damage to property isn't done, in case deposit isn't returned by landlord, tenants should resort to similar activity ? Even tenants would have convenience to avoid legal hassle.

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

1) Very insensitive people think its a laughing matter that someones property is genuinely vulnerable. Shows a glimpse into the attitude how tenants may have a no conscience of the landlords loss.

2) One of my dads tenants hadn't paid rents for over a year. We could've chosen the "goon-route" paying 2 lacs, but we chose the legal route thinking the tenant will come to terms as we atleast had a well drafted agreement.

Outcome : Forget rent ... that was stored by tenant.

3) Granted your motive might seem to you as "for public good". But is your approach constructive ?


4) So you outright threaten people. Irrespective of what the contract says or their situation, irrespective of whether they can or cannot afford legal costs or not. Because ofcourse, thats not your problem, right?

1) In case landlords feel that tenants are not good/cant take care of property or the property is very vulnerable, why rent it out ? Or have it in agreement that a review would be conducted every 6 months and if the property is affected in a negative way, the tenant would vacate.

Landlord-Tenant relation is certainly not of charity and an exchange of money is involved as per agreed terms. But any firm logic that 10 months deposits would resolve all risk issues or maintenance in case of damage ? Usually, in most of cities its 3 months deposit amount. Also, what about loss of interest on the deposited amount, is that accounted for ?

What if RCC Column or Beam or Roof are damaged extensively ? Are there any defined norms or framework for agreement ?

We have a property at our native place which has pretty large plot area. In case of religious ceremonies and festivals, we are still asked if we wanted to rent it out for brief amount of time.

We didn't want to take risk and believe that our property could be vulnerable to damage. Hence didn't rent it out. As simple as that.

2) Its really good to know that you avoided the relatively convenient Goon-Route.
What transpired depicts that how much ahead we as a nation need to move as far as justice is concerned.

3) The route taken is a legal one as far as my understanding goes, just like the one you opted and its highly appreciable fact that illegal/convenient methods are avoided.
Is there any other legal recourse ?

4) Why hold up the deposit amount ? In that case, there is always an option to reply with legal notice which the landlords can do. And in case landlords have retained the deposit amount, just reply stating the agreement or damages, and let the tenant go the legal way.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Yes it is all covered in the agreement. And we go by it. However, we do not charge the full amount, since that will wipe off the advance amount and then lead to such initiatives like these. It is a mutually agreed sum of money, unless the tenant is really hell bent on not paying up for the damage caused. The exception is when they have stayed for a long time, ie more than 3-4 years. Its obvious that the paint itself would have aged by then and hence thats mentioned in the agreement too. The problem is the short term tenants. Its not financially feasible to get the interiors painted and cleaned once a year or two.

Renting is a business, so you protect your capital with the right agreements. The fact that someone is renting means you can expect them to move out any time with sufficient notice. That it is not financially feasible to paint once in a year does not mean it automatically becomes feasible when you collect a ten month advance. How is the 10 month advance helping here ? Thru the interest it generates ?

[SILVERWOOD]

I will refrain from quoting posts to avoid unnecessary arguments.I have learnt this on the RTO thread.Many people felt that a state is at liberty to frame its own laws and can tax vehicles whenever they want and the rest is history.

I am not any sort of a messiah.I am like any average joe or i say average Waseem.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

By clean house you mean a house that is clean or a house that looks exactly like how it looked when you got it from a builder ? Sanitaryware, furnishings, floors, tiles etc age over time. Include a cleaning plus painting sum in your rental agreement. The fact that somebody is renting a place means that they want that flexibility of moving around. Lets face it, the owner is never going to agree the cleaning/painting was proper if the tenant does it.

A clean house means a wall that is not painted with all kinds of alphabets and drawings, a bathroom that does not stink, a kitchen without grease stains everywhere. As I have already mentioned, we are sensible enough to ignore age related issues if at all there is any. If these things are supposed to be accepted, then the next tenant will cry about all these things, and no one will agree to move into such a property.

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

That it is not financially feasible to paint once in a year does not mean it automatically becomes feasible when you collect a ten month advance. How is the 10 month advance helping here ? Thru the interest it generates ?

There is no relation to advance and the period of stay and the feasiblity. I am curious to know how you would model out an agreement with your tenant. Consider this sample calculation:
Rent - 10k/month
Period of stay - 12 months

Vacated by one year with house in a mess. Amount spent in refurb - 40k(interior paint and cleaning, electrical switches broken, some carpentry work and misc labour). You end up spending 33% of the money you earn. If the house had been returned in a good shape, this expense would not be present. However, a 40k expense once in four years is less than 10% of what is earned. Hence, that is more feasible, and in such a case there is no reason to charge the tenant, since even with his best efforts of keeping the house in shape, the paint would have aged, and issues would have cropped up voluntarily. Thats the story behind the agreement terms.

If this is not sounding justified, then its better not to rent it out itself.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by audioholic

A clean house means a wall that is not painted with all kinds of alphabets and drawings, a bathroom that does not stink, a kitchen without grease stains everywhere. As I have already mentioned, we are sensible enough to ignore age related issues if at all there is any. If these things are supposed to be accepted, then the next tenant will cry about all these things, and no one will agree to move into such a property.



There is no relation to advance and the period of stay and the feasiblity. I am curious to know how you would model out an agreement with your tenant. Consider this sample calculation:
Rent - 10k/month
Period of stay - 12 months

Vacated by one year with house in a mess. Amount spent in refurb - 40k(interior paint and cleaning, electrical switches broken, some carpentry work and misc labour). You end up spending 33% of the money you earn. If the house had been returned in a good shape, this expense would not be present. However, a 40k expense once in four years is less than 10% of what is earned. Hence, that is more feasible, and in such a case there is no reason to charge the tenant, since even with his best efforts of keeping the house in shape, the paint would have aged, and issues would have cropped up voluntarily. Thats the story behind the agreement terms.

If this is not sounding justified, then its better not to rent it out itself.

An apartment that takes 40k to paint and clean being rented out for 10k... Are we talking about Bangalore ?
If your tenant is staying for lets say a year, unless he pulls out switches deliberately, I dont know how the electrical maintenance can go into thousands even.
In my experience, the cheapest painting for a 2bhk would cost about 15k, where a reasonable quality one would be around 25k. Even your 40k is 4 months of rent. Take that 4 months of rent as advance if that is the number you are arriving at and put that into the agreement.

I still do not know how the justification of 10 months is arrived at . Its the same type of people who rent out in other cities too.

[racer_ash]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

I have just rented( in Chennai, Hyderabad and Bangalore), never been an owner to a rented apartment.

Take a case of a newly married couple who are renting out. Do you expect the owner to predict when they are going to have children and then include all the consequential damage the new born child is going to do to their house? Or do you expect the owner to have a 'Manual of possible damages to the house' handy and include the same in the agreement?

Well, if the tenants expect a sparkling house to move in, squeaky clean bathrooms for their kids (so they can remain infection-free) and 'furnished to high-standards' houses to rent, what is wrong with the landlords expecting the same from tenants. Or is it a one-way traffic?

There should also be a PIL filed to protect the 'rights' of landlords who are victims of these extortionate and damage causing tenants.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by racer_ash

Take a case of a newly married couple who are renting out. Do you expect the owner to predict when they are going to have children and then include all the consequential damage the new born child is going to do to their house? Or do you expect the owner to have a 'Manual of possible damages to the house' handy and include the same in the agreement?

Well, if the tenants expect a sparkling house to move in, squeaky clean bathrooms for their kids (so they can remain infection-free) and 'furnished to high-standards' houses to rent, what is wrong with the landlords expecting the same from tenants. Or is it a one-way traffic?

There should also be a PIL filed to protect the 'rights' of landlords who are victims of these extortionate and damage causing tenants.

There is no difference between the need to repaint because of say stains of "pan spitting" vs. kids' drawing. Obviously stretching it to the personal lives of people occupying is pointless.

Yes, I expect the owner to ear mark a sum to repaint or such stuff including any maintenance in the agreement. If you have a "furnished to high standards" house to rent, obviously you are charging high rent on that. Just take 2-3 times that money just like owners from other cities do.

[SILVERWOOD]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

In my experience, the cheapest painting for a 2bhk would cost about 15k, where a reasonable quality one would be around 25k. Even your 40k is 4 months of rent. Take that 4 months of rent as advance if that is the number you are arriving at and put that into the agreement.

I got my 2 BHK painted yesterday (2 coats) and the cost was 8.2k. (4.1k for Royal emulsion and the rest as labor charges)

This paint costs 400 Rs a liter and cheap distempers are available for 50Rs/Liter as well.

Waseem.

[hserus]

Depends on whether the walls just have primer, or have wallcare putty finish + then two coats of emulsion. For a larger 3bhk the cost is rather higher. Figure 8 rupees a square foot labour and then the cost of the paint extra.

That can easily run to 25..30K. Of course if you plan to give the flat to a tenant you'd use a far cheaper paint and no wallcare - but I'd planned to move in myself and only had to drop that idea at the last moment due to family reasons, then had to rent the place out.

Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD

I got my 2 BHK painted yesterday (2 coats) and the cost was 8.2k. (4.1k for Royal emulsion and the rest as labor charges)

This paint costs 400 Rs a liter and cheap distempers are available for 50Rs/Liter as well.

Waseem.

[hothatchaway]

Kudos Waseem for taking up another worthy cause. Read through the thread and saw many rants against tenants, I suppose if I have had a bad experience with something or someone, it would colour my perception also, BUT, did not find any logical explanation for why Bangalore real estate and the renting out business is unique so as to warrant an extortionate 10 months security deposit. I read posts about how tenants refused to evict even after non payment of rent for months, wilful destruction of property etcetera. These are serious issues which need to be settled legally, or extra legally, if you are so disposed, as some of the members here have clearly shown themselves to be. I still do not see how a 10 month deposit helps here. If we are talking non payment of rent for a year or more/structural damages with exorbitant repair bills (and please lets not offer juvenile excuses like a child scribbling on walls/dirty bathrooms which a coat of paint and a days cleaning can resolve), what is the limit then? Ask the tenant to submit a blank cheque to be used suitably/returned at the time of vacating?

As someone pointed out, leasing is a commercial activity and with any such activity, there is a risk associated with it. It is the same as hiring a self drive car/taking an Ola Uber; am yet to hear of a renter developing an emotional attachment with the vehicle, he is renting it for chrissake! Should the renter take every pain to ensure the vehicle is given back in the same condition as he had rented it? Absolutely! If the owner of the rental fleet were to start deliberating about how his hard earned penny had gone into the purchase of the vehicles and how a certain car in his fleet had brought his newborn home from the hospital, he should not be in the business to begin with. At the same time, should the person renting the car put his slippers in his pocket before getting into the car every time for fear of leaving dirt on the floor mat? Now that would be ridiculous; every business model where the asset needs upkeep has to factor in a certain % of revenue to be spent on that, to demand almost a years rent - interest free at that - as some kind of an insurance policy is just absurd.

And to all the rants against tenants, this is just in bad taste. There are many landlords for whom this is the sole/primary source of income. Where would they be without people looking to rent? If there are bad tenants there would be an equal number of bad landlords also. I do not want to start a laundry list of 'typical behavior of bad landlords' as that takes away from the specific scope of the PIL, which is primarily to do with tenancy reforms in Bangalore. In any case, I do not think apartments are rented out to just anybody walking in from the street; most conduct a full blown interview with all kinds of antecedents checked. Worse, many discriminate on grounds of gender, marital status, community etc. Let me ask this, lets say a tenant, who had paid a 10 month security deposit vacates after staying for at least a year with no damage to the property. Will the landlord refund the security deposit + the BANK INTEREST that would have accrued on the sizeable principle amount? I suppose the answer is no in most cases, if not all, because neither party is doing charity to the other. So let us be respectful to both parties concerned and accept the risk that comes with deploying an asset for commercial purposes.