Team-BHP - Artificial Intelligence: How far is it?

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Originally Posted by Jeroen (Post 4284764)

Though my Dutch SSN I can access all local and national governemental organisations. I can pay my national and local tax, apply for child benefits, apply for various official documents, e.g. passport, driver licence, pay my traffic fines, look up the photographs of the speed camera etc etc. It's hugely convenient.

That's interesting. Did your government make it mandatory to surrender your biometric data? Did they give you a deadline to surrender your biometric data, before they threaten to cut off your phone line and bank account?

So, context is extremely important.

In India, the government's priorities, values and how they view citizens is entirely different compared to its Nordic counterparts. My concerns about the government's intentions and incompetency are entirely reasonable.

And, in a country that has a myriad of socioeconomic problems like lack of proper sanitation and human scavengers, Aadhar should be at the bottom of the list and NOT mandatory. AFAIK our government doesn't provide child benefits or social security.

Aadhar is a zero-sum game, which adds no value to an average citizen's life.

Traditionally, your name is your identity.
But certainly, more than one person can have the same name, and therefore your name is not a unique identifier.
Enter address -- within the same address it is extremely rare to have the same name. So, name and address based identification works better that way.
This is the reason why we have address and name in traditional ids. Like Passport, Driving license etc.

Now, coming to aadhar, it picks up your biometric information. Yes, it may repeat for some rare cases. But your name plus your biometric information becomes your identity. Which also means that a central database that collects this information invariably becomes extremely useful.

As to the threats written here, its mostly related to "government is watching me". That fear that people have on infringement on privacy, data etc, need not be limited with Aadhar. Its just a tool and is being now projected as a mechanism to ensure unique identification. If you do not trust your government, there is no reason why you should trust your government about your passport and PAN card either.

You may argue that a set of rules as to securing the citizen's data must be implemented before pushing for aadhar. But ultimately, it is controlled by your government, which you helped elect.

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Originally Posted by ashwin489 (Post 4284892)

Yes, once the passport with biometric data were introduced everybody that applied for a passport needs to surrender biometric data. So in the space of approx 5 years more or less everybody had done this. In a small country like the Netherlands everybody has a passport as it is also used as an I.D. for all sorts of reasons. (e.g. picking up a parcel at the postoffice).

The Dutch are very creative of enforcing rules, without setting hard deadlines. The process will sort it by itself.

If you would find yourself in the USA you can't do anything without a Social Security Number. You can't enter into contracts with the utilities companies, you cant open a bank account etc. So yes, there are many examples where you need to comply to certain rules and regulations, sometimes 'surrender'biometric data in order to get services or access to services that we would typically take for granted.

You enter the USA, they will take your fingerprints and it's in a huge database with a whole lot more data you had to surrender as you applied for a Visa. Without providing fingerprints you simple wont be allowed to enter the country. And the USA is not the only one. These days they can even demand your log in details to your social media.

I would be the first to admit that the situation in India cant be compared to the USA, Sweden or the Netherlands. Especially how these sort of mechanisms are introduced into society. From what I have seen and experienced it tends to be a bit abrupt with little notice. (no offense meant)

But there are a lot of parallels in it too. India is a fantastic county in many respects. But it also struggles in many areas on catching up with the more western orientated countries. There are plenty of examples where developments in India go faster compared to the same development in western countries.

E.g. India went from virtually no telecommunication infrastructure to a pretty good mobile infrastructure in the space of less then a few decades. It took the west probably more than a century and a huge fixed infrastructure and many more changes in technology to get where they are now. So India is truly leapfrogging here. With it comes all sort of hurdles and problems of course.

Yes, few would deny India has some real challenges, be it socio-economics or otherwise. But I dont think concentrating on solving only those is the correct way forward either. A lot of these developments need or are taken place in parallel. Sometimes not always in a logical order or so it appears. As the saying goes, you cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, unfortunately.

Having a lot of personal data accessible and available to the local and nationwide governemental bodies etc has undoubtely pro's and con's.
(Data) Privacy is a huge (political) topic in all/most (western) countries. So its always a bit of a balancing act what you allow and what you regulate.

Whether all of this, or Aadhar introduction specifically, will be beneficial for the individual citizen is a bit of personal belief.

I think there are two different areas of benefits:
- Personal: your interaction with local/nation wide governemental bodies is much more efficient, requiring less of your time
- Society at large; typically these sort of 'system' over time do have an impact on tax paying behaviour, black money etc. Although in the eye of the beholder, plenty of people think that's a good thing.

Let me give you a very concrete example:
My employer provides online details on my wages, pension payments, social securities, bonus etc to the Dutch taxauthorities
My mortgage firm provides online details on my mortgage, outstanding amount, dues paid, interest paid to the Dutch tax authorities
My bank provides online details to the Dutch tax authorities about all my accounts, amounts, interest etc. So do the various investment companies.
My council provides online details to the Dutch tax authorities about the various properties I have, value, local tax paid, etc.

So when I get my tax return form, the Dutch tax authorities have filled out just about everything for me already. I just check the data, amend it if needed, file it online and if I'm due a refund I will get that within a few months automatically into my bank account. Filing a tax return for the average Dutch person is a matter of minutes.

I find it very convenient. I like the fact that there is very little tax dodging possible by Dutch citizens. I know everybody in the Netherlands is treated equally in terms of rules and process. .

Some people hate all of the above. Now India might be a long way from this example.

By the way; let me tell you, so is the USA! Five years after leaving the USA I just go a note last week from the Kansas Tax office. They are sending me a rebate on my 2011 income tax of $123, by cheque! Not sure if a Dutch bank knows what a cheque is. My kids who are in their late twenties, early thirties have never owned a cheque book in their life! They only know online banking, debit- and credit cards.

Just to illustrate what these mechanism over time can do. Again, whether you approve or disapprove is very much a personal choice and or preference.

Jeroen

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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal (Post 4284917)

If you do not trust your government, there is no reason why you should trust your government about your passport and PAN card either.

You may argue that a set of rules as to securing the citizen's data must be implemented before pushing for aadhar. But ultimately, it is controlled by your government, which you helped elect.

Not entirely by the government. They've outsourced lot of it to private agencies, most of them small local ones who could easily (and they are!) making back-channel copies and using them for their own purposes. Some of the agencies contracted to collect and store data are foreign agencies with ties to military intelligence, and they have our biometrics.

So many people have incorrect entries in their aadhar cards, an agency which messes up at data collection itself, can you trust their competence if not intentions, at data security?

Multiple reports of breaches in aadhar security are met with staunch denial by UIDAI, like an ostrich with its head in the sand. Reportedly, 5000+ fingerprints have been duplicated after UIDAI's own biometric database was hacked. They have admitted to lakhs of false Aadhar IDs in existence and for all the lofty aims of verification, I read that Bangladeshi immigrants have aadhar cards issues. Not only that, genuine cases of old/poor folk whose biometrics failed to match the database, were denied benefits that they received before aadhar. Maybe the government did weed out many fakes, but if it comes at the cost of innocent too being denied, is it worth it?

Few days ago, several people lost lakhs each, in a fraud that involved leakage of aadhar biometric data. The scamsters managed to get fingerprints, changed the SIM/number associated to aadhar and withdrew money from banks using the new SIM as the new contact in the bank's netbanking app. How much more risk is the government going to put a largely cyber-ignorant public? Most of us in IT barely even understand the basics of computer/data security , let aside the general population.

As for trust?

This is the same government that passed 40 bills as money bills so as to subvert any debate and vetoing in LS-RS debate.
This is the same government that changed laws to make RTIs revocable and automatically close on the death of the applicant - so if bullying an RTI activist doesn't get him to revoke his RTI filing, he can be killed and the RTI dies automatically.
This is the same government that kept political parties out of RTI jurisdiction.
This is the same government that removed the 7.5% (of net profit)cap on anonymous corporate 'donations' , now any corporate can donate any amount to political parties, with no RTI or income tax investigation. That's opening the gates for wholesale corruption. I can imagine shell companies created only to divert their profit as political party funding.

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Originally Posted by ashwin489 (Post 4284892)

That's interesting. Did your government make it mandatory to surrender your biometric data? Did they give you a deadline to surrender your biometric data, before they threaten to cut off your phone line and bank account?

My concerns about the government's intentions and incompetency are entirely reasonable. AFAIK our government doesn't provide child benefits or social security.

Aadhar is a zero-sum game, which adds no value to an average citizen's life.

Precisely. Threats to close one's bank accounts and telephone subscriptions is a low blow, that reinforces the distrust of the government. If the same PAN has been filing IT returns for years, why the need to force them to getting aadhar?

Care enough to sign and spread the word? Here's a petition against aadhar.
https://www.change.org/p/prime-minis...ts-of-citizens

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Originally Posted by Ricci (Post 4285631)

Again, this argument is about the lack of rules around Aadhar implementation. Its a democracy, and if the people can vote accordingly, it will change. The incompetency of the implementing agent, is not really a point to criticise aadhar. Are you saying all MVIs, Passport officers, Income tax officers etc are perfect already ? The inefficiency in the rest of the system is there in Aadhar also, and there it stops. Incorrect entries in Aadhar, havent you seen anybody who has incorrect entry in any other document ?

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Multiple reports of breaches in aadhar security are met with staunch denial by UIDAI, like an ostrich with its head in the sand. Reportedly, 5000+ fingerprints have been duplicated after UIDAI's own biometric database was hacked. They have admitted to lakhs of false Aadhar IDs in existence and for all the lofty aims of verification, I read that Bangladeshi immigrants have aadhar cards issues. Not only that, genuine cases of old/poor folk whose biometrics failed to match the database, were denied benefits that they received before aadhar. Maybe the government did weed out many fakes, but if it comes at the cost of innocent too being denied, is it worth it?

Few days ago, several people lost lakhs each, in a fraud that involved leakage of aadhar biometric data. The scamsters managed to get fingerprints, changed the SIM/number associated to aadhar and withdrew money from banks using the new SIM as the new contact in the bank's netbanking app. How much more risk is the government going to put a largely cyber-ignorant public? Most of us in IT barely even understand the basics of computer/data security , let aside the general population.

These examples, which very much look like hearsay ( I may be wrong), is written as though it is the first time somebody's security is breached. On the pre aadhar days, all you need to do is to find someone who looks remotely like the person you want to steal from, copy the person's signature and the bank would directly give it to you.
I was dumbfounded when I could change the mobile number with two of my bank accounts ( one govt and one private) with just a signature, and a show up of a driving license taken 10 years before( I look nothing like that now) with an outstation address.

Now, imagine how aadhar would ease the whole thing. It would pretty much be like buying Jio phone. You go to your bank, place your fingers and you are identified. Or you do a iris scan and you are identified. Only you can identify yourself. Of course there would be a few thousands who have the issue with obscure/wrong details amongst the 100 crore indians. They would have to be handled separately.

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As for trust?

This is the same government that passed 40 bills as money bills so as to subvert any debate and vetoing in LS-RS debate.
This is the same government that changed laws to make RTIs revocable and automatically close on the death of the applicant - so if bullying an RTI activist doesn't get him to revoke his RTI filing, he can be killed and the RTI dies automatically.
This is the same government that kept political parties out of RTI jurisdiction.
This is the same government that removed the 7.5% (of net profit)cap on anonymous corporate 'donations' , now any corporate can donate any amount to political parties, with no RTI or income tax investigation. That's opening the gates for wholesale corruption. I can imagine shell companies created only to divert their profit as political party funding.

Would you still trust this government that has weakened citizen's means of tacking corruption?

To begin with, aadhar was intended to streamline the subsidies/benefits to poor impoverished people, to reduce diversion and black marketing of PDS goods. As a middle class tax payer, I'm not the recipient of any subsidies, if anything, my taxes are subsidizing others. So why make mandatory what isn't even meant for me? This same government opposed aadhar as the opposition. Aadhar means support, instead it's become gate. A gate where people's lives are judged on the presence of absence of a mark/tattoo of allegiance - submission to aadhar.

Precisely. Threats to close one's bank accounts and telephone subscriptions is a low blow, that reinforces the distrust of the government. If the same PAN has been filing IT returns for years, why the need to force them to getting aadhar?

Care enough to sign and spread the word? Here's a petition against aadhar.
https://www.change.org/p/prime-minis...ts-of-citizens

Looks like you have issues with this Government and leadership. I do too. But that is not a reason to link an Aadhar threat.
I dont know how the parliament houses issue is linked here. RTI and corporate donations do not have any link here.

Any threat related to democracy with this leadership that you feel, must be dealt with democratically. If your government wants to screw you, it need not have Aadhar to do it. The aadhar adds convenience to a lot of people's lives. And with advent of technology it gets better and better. You only have to ensure the democracy runs.

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Originally Posted by ashwin489 (Post 4283233)

All your links are about people opposing Elon Musk's hypothesis. But, do note all of Elon's recent ventures (Tesla, SpaceX, Solar City) have been focused on improving our chances of survival as a species. I'd rather believe him than some religious nutbag politician that tells me that Aadhar is good for me.

And, Stephen Hawking is wrong as well?

I think we moved to the left of the topic at hand. A lot has been said on AI. Working in a firm which is touting AI as the 4th industrial revolution, i can comfortably say that the quotes of Elon Musk and his detractors need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Any change to status quo comes with a lot of resistance. There is a huge amount of suspicion and fear mongering with these changes. Look at the time when Darwin introduced his concept of Survival of the fittest or when Copernicus talked about Earth not being the center of universe. Both these theories were attacked violently at first and over a period of time the change occurred.

AI is fairly new and we have just seen the tip of the iceberg. Being a buzzword and entry barriers being lower there is mass adoption that is happening - whether it be VR or Chatbots. We are looking at the superficial aspects. AI can be a game changer for us to improve our life. Look at healthcare. We have werables which are helping us monitor our health.

One would now argue that what is the point of knowing your pulse rate or BP or how many steps you walked in a day. We could do without this and lead a normal life. But now convert that to a person who has specific conditions and need to be monitored. Science has always helped increase survival rates

What one needs to keep in mind is the rules engine behind AI. Obviously i guess that is what Elon Musk meant in his diatribe against AI.

Coming to Aadhar. What is the big issue here. So, the government got your boimetric data. So they linked it to many of the services that you use such as banking, property, telephones etc. I am sure if we were to travel to countries such as US we would happily give our biological details. And for sure we would never be able to understand what they do with that and where it has gone.

Stephen Hawking has warned in this article:

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that artificial intelligence could develop a will of its own that is in conflict with that of humanity. It could herald dangers like powerful autonomous weapons and ways for the few to oppress the many, he said, as he called for more research in the area.

He said:

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'I fear that AI may replace humans altogether. 'If people design computer viruses, someone will design AI that improves and replicates itself.
'This will be a new form of life that outperforms humans.'

Another article says:

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Google may soon find a way to create AI technology that can partly take the humans out of building the AI systems that many believe are the future of the technology industry.

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In building a neural network, researchers run dozens or even hundreds of experiments across a vast network of machines, testing how well an algorithm can learn a task like recognising an image or translating from one language to another. Then they adjust particular parts of the algorithm over and over again, until they settle on something that works. Some call it a "dark art," just because researchers find it difficult to explain why they make particular adjustments.
But with AutoML, Google is trying to automate this process. It is building algorithms that analyse the development of other algorithms, learning which methods are successful and which are not. Eventually, they learn to build more effective machine learning. Google said AutoML could now build algorithms that, in some cases, identified objects in photos more accurately than services built solely by human experts.