[VKumar]

Originally Posted by sidhu_hs

And nobody is talking about the agriculture NPAs. Just try going to a village and do a 'The Big Short' kinda investigation. I don't know about the tipping point but it is coming.

This is indeed the bitter truth, the life of small to medium size land holding farmers is more or less miserable at the end of the day. Since I am directly connected to the agriculture, I am well aware of the incomes, where money comes from and where it finally goes.
One thing I agree, if there is a single owner of a decent sized piece of land, he may be seen driving a Mahindra 475 DI and an Alto, but his sugarcane yield itself is enough to make him buy a BMW 3 series every year, but this is the condition for the farmer on the another end of the spectrum. Overall, the story is more or less same everywhere; the thing is that at the end of the day 'only the fittest will survive'; Indians love competing and they really don't care about the pity things like real knowledge, development of subordinates, ethics or other peers at times (and the dirty level office politics, idiotic bosses expecting personal favours etc are very common in India).

Whatever is happening is nothing but the outcome of cheap practices and a mindset of people that once you are in, you are safe. Oh yes, this isn't it IT only; I have a cousin in real estate and he is searching for a new job with a CV in hand which reads 25+ years of experience.

Coming to IT, bulk recruiters are visiting colleges and taking huge numbers of students every year. Trust me gentlemen, I have never done a job in It but still can beat half of my friends when it comes to coding and they are the guys who have been working since over an year - but what with skill? They do the same thing multiple times daily!!

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by GTO

As the company was restructured, Maiya’s position became less secure. More so when his boss decided to make Maiya report to a peer director. Having been a manager who had to let people go, he knew what that meant. And so, he did something he had never done before—track his expenses.

Something that one needs to learn in true meritocracy is humility.

Sharing a personal story here - When I first became a manager (in So.Cal) I had hired an engineer who checked all the boxes. Very soon I realized this person was super smart, and hardworking, I put her on every big challenge, and she helped the team shine. 5 years, down the line she was my peer, then my director. (some 12+ years younger to me) Just reporting to a person that you hired, does not mean you will be let go. This person I hired, went on to lead a huge team at another company, and when they were hiring, I was one of the first few people she had on their interview list.

When companies reward productivity, people who can learn quicker, work smarter, and harder shine. 25year work experience may have mattered in a different industry at a different time. At places producing products, where productivity matters (rather than people managers), people who can produce will climb up higher and faster. There is no shame in working for younger people who are rewarded with these opportunities to lead. These times call for understanding of meritocracy, and some humility (overcoming ego). If one choses to cook up stories of favoritism, and subservient attitude, as if every person who is promoted does not deserve it - it only causes great mental anguish, hatred, and feeling cheated. People who end up going around town claiming this, are often the ones who do not get strong recommendations for future jobs.

Tangent relevant for these times (that I keep reminding myself of) - Love the work you do, not the company you work for. You never know when the company will stop loving you.

[theMAG]

Any tenured employee in the IT/Tech industry who still believes that their career growth can be tracked vertically (Manager>Director>Sr Director etc) is kidding themselves, in the current evolution of the industry. I must admit the article reads like an auto-biography for most if not all mid-senior level IT/Tech employees: if you have crossed 18-20 years in the industry, it best that you have an exit plan in place for that near-certain probability of you getting laid off.

Perhaps not surprisingly, the suggestion I read about moving towards agricultural ownership is something I've heard many peers speak about in unison!

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Hayek

the CEO of TCS is in his mid 40s.

Wow, I just looked him up, he was still in college when I was already working in TCS.

While he took the finance route to the top, many of my peers who are still in TCS are stuck in middle management because they worked as engineers. This is a common theme. Although these companies make their money through IT services, those who do the actual IT services work are disposable. Indian IT companies are in the business of making money, and not in the business of technology innovation. Therefore, real power/control lies with folks in sales and finance. They are the real rainmakers of Indian IT companies. Once I understood that, I left TCS and joined a tiny company where I too have some power/control. Still there after 20 years.

Members from non-IT fields are saying that longer experience is an asset in their fields. Actually, it can be true in IT too, provided folks were careful in their choices. But, most of them weren't and aren't careful about it. People often talk about re-skilling, as if they can change their profile like a costume. In my opinion, the most valuable asset a professional has is their domain knowledge. When doctors/lawyers work for 20+ years, what they gain is domain knowledge. That is what makes those years so valuable. Similarly, if an IT professional builds domain knowledge about an industry, it is much more valuable to the company than a skill you pick up over a month from some certificate course. Technical skills are just tools in your mental toolbox. Knowing how to apply those tools to solve problems or build products/solutions for an industry, is domain knowledge. For example, to develop a banking/taxation software, the knowledge of banking/taxation is 10 times more important than knowing programming. Unfortunately most IT professionals keep hopping from one industry to another, without bothering to learn anything about the domain.

These days many IT folks are learning statistics/data-analytics/ML. But these are tools too. If you don't have domain knowledge, you will not know how to apply those tools to that domain.

Last year, a 17 year IT professional was seeking a job at my company. He was making insane amount of salary in Bangalore, but was willing to take a pay cut so that he can work in his native village. My biggest problem with him was that he didn't understand what domain knowledge meant. It went something like this:

Me: Looking at your CV, I don't see any domain knowledge relevant to enterprise telephony. Why are you applying here?
He: I have lots of experience in embedded programming, so I can pick telephony programming easily.
Me:I am not talking about programming. The domain knowledge in enterprise telephony takes many years to learn. All the fresh engineers take at least 3 years just to get a hang of it. And I expect much more than that from seniors, they have to be good enough to advice customers. It is not something you can pick up over a month via some training. You have to go through full life cycle, more than once.
He: Hmm...
Me: BTW, going through your CV, I couldn't really make out what domain knowledge you have. Can you shed some light on it?
He: <he listed out some 8-10 fields>...and agriculture...
Me: What?

It is not possible for someone to have domain knowledge in so many fields. At least, not in more than 2-3 fields. It appeared he was just naming various industries for which he had developed software. So I asked for clarification.

Me: You have domain knowledge in agriculture?
He: Yes. I have developed software for an equipment that measured soil moisture. It is used by farmers.
Me: So, are you an expert in farming?
He: Ugh... No.
Me: Listen, having domain knowledge means knowing the customers business better than they do. Most of the time, customers have clear business requirements, but have vague ideas on how to solve it. In those circumstances, because we would have implemented solutions numerous times in that domain, we can suggest/provide effective solutions and advice on the best practices.
He: Oh, that makes sense.
Me: Now can you tell me whether you have such domain knowledge in any industry?
He: <he gave some shaky answer, I don't remember it clearly>

He clearly had no definite domain knowledge. He had worked on various platforms using various programming languages. He just had a big toolbox. His long experience created high salary expectation, while providing no value in return. This is how long experience becomes a liability rather than an asset.

[VKumar]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Me: Listen, having domain knowledge means knowing the customers business better than they do. Most of the time, customers have clear business requirements, but have vague ideas on how to solve it. In those circumstances, because we would have implemented solutions numerous times in that domain, we can suggest/provide effective solutions and advice on the best practices.

He just had a big toolbox. His long experience created high salary expectation, while providing no value in return. This is how long experience becomes a liability rather than an asset.

Wow Samurai sir, what a wonderful and eye opening post (This post should have the thanks button enabled for it)

Team-BHP is indeed a treasure of knowledge, you always have the right person here to answer the query. Just did my maths and I can guess that your experience itself should be more than my age itself.

Noted down both the points above and will be applied with time. It is indeed a very important tip for any new comer - "know the business of your customer and you will know what exactly to develop for them".

[sdp1975]

When I look at jobs in linkedin - most of them ask for technical skills first and then domain knowledge. Probably in the US where most software product development and sales happen , domain knowledge is a lot more important . It matters if you run your own business.

Agree to what civic-sense and Hayek have said . If you passed out in the 90s and rode the liberalization boom and led a conservative lifestyle , you should scrape through for the rest of your life. A friend's friend works in the Rajasthan govt's IT department . They have the usual software dev,testing etc jobs. He has a secure job till 60 , but I suppose his salary is much lesser compared to what private firms pay . So in the end it does average out. High growth can't last forever.

I also saw that Jagadeesh Maiya has found a job after leaving Cisco - he must've taken a pay cut though . So things aren't as bad as they're made out to be , something eventually does work out .

[srishiva]

Have just changed job with 25 years of experience. Being in wireless/datacom area and with 5G development/IoT picking pace was able to move quickly. The positions open are lesser in numbers but they are also in the architecture/system engineering levels. If you have been technical and working on new technology every couple of years, its not that bad. You also kind of know everyone or know someone common who have also moved up working in the same companies abroad and India as you

I am glad that I did not choose a management role. Not that its bad. I know people who are now moving from Cisco/Nokia/Ericsson etc to Amazon kind of companies. I also know people quoted in the first post from same company who were managers and are now out of jobs. At least with very good pay they are not that badly placed in life. Its equal to being in Indian companies for twice the amount of time !

[Latheesh]

Most IT employees focus on HOW to do their tasks, and very few are interested in WHY they do it. HOW to do can be learned by anyone and execute the task. Knowing WHY part is what separate expert/leaders in their field from the rest.

[ZedMae]

Originally Posted by Samurai

He clearly had no definite domain knowledge. He had worked on various platforms using various programming languages. He just had a big toolbox. His long experience created high salary expectation, while providing no value in return. This is how long experience becomes a liability rather than an asset.

Just curious, would you have taken him if he had strong knowledge in one domain (in which he has worked), notwithstanding the fact that he does not have knowledge on enterprise telephony?

Originally Posted by Samurai

These days many IT folks are learning statistics/data-analytics/ML. But these are tools too. If you don't have domain knowledge, you will not know how to apply those tools to that domain.

Probably we are just discussing semantics here, but I would like at it differently. Your Stats/ Linear Algebra/ Probability concepts are not going to change. The tools would be your Python, R etc. And these can keep changing. And therefore there will be strong value on the conceptual understanding following by tool specific competency.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ZedMae

Just curious, would you have taken him if he had strong knowledge in one domain (in which he has worked), notwithstanding the fact that he does not have knowledge on enterprise telephony?

If he had strong domain knowledge in an area unrelated to enterprise telephony, it would open up other options. For example, I would have asked him whether he has any killer product ideas for that domain, with ready customers. That would allow me to create a new product line in a new domain. Of course, he would have to convince me about the ROI of getting into a new domain. However, if he was only technical, without any business knowledge of that domain, it won't work out.

One can probably remain purely technical in large companies. In smaller companies like mine, one has to know the business side of the domain once you exceed 10 years of experience. I don't mean sales. But they'll have to understand the cost of product development life cycle, and the value it offers to the customers when compared to rival products.

Originally Posted by ZedMae

Your Stats/ Linear Algebra/ Probability concepts are not going to change.

Yes, these are not going to change. But, without a field to apply it, it just remains theoretical. These are superior tools compared to programming languages. One can be a statistician without any domain knowledge. But a data analyst has to have domain knowledge, apart from knowing the above.

If a person with domain knowledge learns statistics in a class room, he/she can immediately see numerous opportunities to apply it. But a statistician can't learn domain knowledge in a class room, so it is a lost cause. I know this from first hand experience. Couple years ago, I had to learn markov chains in 2-3 months to create a very complex algorithm for a telephony application. But an expert in markov chains couldn't have done that because domain knowledge can't be picked up so fast.

[ajmat]

I am on the very wrong side of 50 and recently left my company since

1: All new roles were junior technical roles
3: Ran out of room to grow.

It was a choice of lots of pressure in what was now a hum-drum job or explore what is outside

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Time to move out of the cities and embrace farming. More money there I tell you. And time. And fresh air. And great mornings. And exercise.

Wait, you can't? Oh Loans and EMI.

Easily said than done, my friend who is a cardiologist runs a 150 acre farm in Ahmedabad. It took him 15-20 years of hard work and learning to run the farm. Another 10 years to adapt the farm to bio-rhythmic/organic farming and now it is one of the most renowned farms in Ahmedabad. He has scaled down the medical practice to focus on the farm. You could call it a partnership between the farmworkers and his family to get to this level.

Loans and EMI - I could see my situation coming. I bought my property outright a long time ago. I had taken loans for investment properties which I cleared months before my impending circumstances came to fruition

Originally Posted by selfdrive

In other words, the person did not learn much by the number of years added. So no value in terms of number of years.

For those of us with 15+ years of experience, it is quite challenging to even land an interview. .
This is probably why most in their late 30s and early 40s start something of their own.

.

This was happening to me, the service I created and developed was self-sustaining. Yes, they wanted shrinking SLA's but were not prepared to invest in resources or capital for this. Of course, there were two many cooks!

Originally Posted by am1m

Some observations from personal experience after 15 years (and counting) in the IT industry.

The majority of Indian IT companies, product and service, basically follow the 'Infosys model' - hire cheap labor and sell their work for several times more to clients in the US or the EU who still make a saving on costs. This is true even for the so called 'product companies'.

They may be innovative product companies in the US, but the India office basically works for the US office as a vendor doing back-office work.

The 'manager' syndrome. Sadly, even after all these years and being exposed to the American and European work culture, we're very designation-crazy here.

Non-existent HR development or training. Very few companies invest in their employees long-term.

Entitlement. For all the fun we make of government employees and public servants, I've seen that we IT guys behave a lot like them. Most of us believe that it is our birthright to get double-digit hikes every year and a promotion every x years, irrespective of how the company is doing overall or how much we've delivered over the past year.!

I used to be the interface between my ex-company and the outsourced partners. I used to look up to the Infosys and Wipro's 20 years ago. Now having worked closely with them, these are more like skilled slave drivers. Ask for any near impossible task and they are far from assertive and will say yes to everything. My customer managers got used to this and keep making demands on the vendor knowing that their direct employees would rarely do the same

My ex-company does a lot of substantial product development but now outsource a lot of it out! There is a joke that one or two of the suppliers have skills to design a rival product if they see the big picture.

"Manager" - I was a manager - I managed processes, a service, a domain. However, the outside world considers managers as people managers. I was not interested in this because of dealing with the "entitlement" factor. As for development, it was more in terms of technical skills for the technical team

As for my job after I left. Part of it was geo politics. Part of my job went to another Geo to some juniors. Another part of my job is left wide open - they are looking for someone with the domain knowledge but cannot find someone on the cheap.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

To all the 40+ IT guys out there. Our generation was one of the luckiest ones. And we used to hop from one job to another asking for 50-100% rises.

If you thought that it would last forever and did not save some of it for this day, then it was your mistake. .

True, Karma always comes - now only the cream will be skimmed!

Originally Posted by Samurai

Technical skills are just tools in your mental toolbox. Knowing how to apply those tools to solve problems or build products/solutions for an industry, is domain knowledge.............
He clearly had no definite domain knowledge. He had worked on various platforms using various programming languages. He just had a big toolbox. His long experience created high salary expectation, while providing no value in return. This is how long experience becomes a liability rather than an asset.

This is a Catch 22 Situ - finding someone with right domain + technical skills is tough. You can get one but not the other in most cases. I decided to gain some technical skills during my "break" but it is of no use as I lack the domain experience.

Summarising, I possess a high level of Operations and Security Risk management skills. I have the required certification but my age and lack of technical skills is posing a disadvantage. When I speak to HR, they assume Age = Over the Top Salary. They do not understand the concept of market forces fixing the salary based on work done.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by ajmat

When I speak to HR, they assume Age = Over the Top Salary. They do not understand the concept of market forces fixing the salary based on work done.

This is true of HR/recruitment everywhere. They cannot grasp the concept of someone willing to take a pay cut for other factors. It's simply too alien for them.

For example, I would gladly take a pay cut to move to a job which is more challenging or to a job at an office location that is near a metro station. I have even stated the same right up front during the first contact with HR. But they have a set formula in mind that involves experience, age and salary and cannot seem to deviate from it.

[rageshgr]

Being in IT for 11 years, this topic piqued by attention. Many of these cases may be due to:
1. Company tightening the budget/optimizing due to a crunch situation.
2. Some are plain unlucky
3. Some are in already top heavy pyramids that , suddenly due to down sizing etc, you find two 40 years old managing a 20 member team in which 1 of them becomes redundant. But this is actually due to the younger employees also suffering a down sizing
4. 40 years are paid heavily so during a pruning they may be targeted
5. Many (not all) 40 years may be just a generic Senior Management type and may not have a USP
6. Macro factors such as policies in US etc.
7. Also may be not expect big pay hike at this juncture and find a job that you love and where there is scope.

But there is hope. In this industry, things are always changing, and you need to keep pace. One can't just stop technical/domain learning after 8 years and expect to just be a people's manager for the rest 22 years. Create a niche for yourself.

Even though pyramids these days are top heavy, but, talented, technical, innovative people are still rare and valued. Expertise yourself in a field. Don't be a jack of all trades and master of none. Know about everything, but don't forget your core technical skill be it Software Architecture, Networking, Hardware, Programming, DB, consulting, testing, build, some other technology, some other tools or processes. Become better at it, become the best at it. A boss who knows more than oneself is highly regarded and respected.

At this level, core techie people are less than 1%. Don't follow the flow and get promoted to generic positions, have a career aim and be at it. Be a specialist, be a guru, become an expert, but also keep an eye on the relevance of your niche. Sometimes you may do all this and still find yourself at the wrong end of the barrel, but carve your space, be excellent at some core thing. Your chances will only increase.

[SoumenD]

The title might need a bit tweaking. Rather than blanket IT professionals , its professionals from IT service sector who might be facing the heat more.

5 years back when I had my last switch , the calls were thick and fast and I could negotiate terms easily. Within a month of floating resume on naukri/monster I landed with 3-4 offers. But now things surely have changed as soon as I crossed the magic 10 year mark. Suddenly calls have dried up. In last 8 months of job-hunting I could manage only 2 offers that too from service firms again, which ultimately I let go as it would have been a similar job with slight better pay and eventually more risk. In current organisation atleast I am in touch with the competency and get enough opportunities. Before dropping the axe, am sure atleast 1% weightage will be given to the service I have provided for last 5 years. Downside though is, responsibilities increased but hikes have almost dried up in last 2-3 years.

Seeing the current trend and talking to few of the HR folks what I understand is , IT Services Industry now prefers folks from 3-7 year bracket primarily because they are on a shoe-string budget nowadays and affording senior folks is tough unless they have some super-niche skillset. Similar job is shouldered by a 8 year exp guy more often than not that a 12 year exp guy would do at 2/3rd the salary. Plus you don't need to spend/invest in training them as that would have been done by the previous firm already.

Folks who joined in 90s sure have been in the best era as when they were 10-12 years exp(2002-2005) real estate and all were still reasonably priced and salaries comparatively were higher. But now, salaries haven't really increased exponentially but real-estate prices sure have gone out of the park. Investing in them is damn scary looking at the prices and shaky future of the industry.

Keep upgrading yourself technically and save for the rainy day. You never know just ike bangalore rains it might catch you by surprise.

[NiInJa]

This is an interesting thread and I want to write a lot on this, but right now I am at a client location in Middle East and wont find time until I go back to my hotel.

I am a guy in my early 30's and have seen how IT people in 40s are always in danger. But the good part of the story is that the ones who are really good at adapting to changing dynamics of the industry can easily get through. I've seen both examples of people in their 40s. Some finding it hard to get a job and some sailing through very easily even when they were asked to leave (not on the basis of their individual performance though, just the tech they worked on got obsolete !)

I will write a detailed observation soon as I get time !

Something about me : I started my IT job in a mid-tier company, and so far
I have been changing jobs after every 2 years at an average for some reason or the other. I've worked for one of the big fours of consulting, worked in one of the 'truck' companies, and worked for another big service based company. And know quite a few things on how each of these work.