[V.Narayan]

Dear BHPians,

There will be two and more views always on a subject and definitely on a sensitive subject like this one. My only request is to respect the views of the other even if it is opposed to what the Supreme court has ruled. Let dissent pour forth. Let expression not be curtailed. Only then can both sides appreciate all the nuances involved and the multiplicity of views on this matter. There will be a vast number in our society who will take one or two generations to fully embrace what the SC has accepted and ruled in favour of. By not letting them express their dissent we will only drive the silent disagreeing majority underground. Over time maybe 30 years attitudes will change.

Fortunately pre-colonial times Indian society was accepting and empathetic towards the B and T. I do not know what attitudes were towards L and G. I am personally deeply in favour of the Supreme Courts ruling but also believe we should not scorn those who are upset otherwise the long road to attitudinal change will never be completed.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by blacksport

(dangerous territory) i find gay people having children very hard to digest. Since gay people can't procreate within the family, they have to resort to ways that are, err, unnatural, which of course, is not hard to do these days. BUT, the well being of the child would, I guess, be better in a man-woman family.

Dangerous indeed - I am thankful that you are acknowledging the muddy waters you are swimming. However I do hope you take cognizant of the fact that there is no basis or proof to guarantee what you have mentioned. A well being of a child is dependent on his parents (among many other factors); the sex of the parents is the least of the factors.

Moreover, I think it is one's right to discriminate against anyone for whatever reason they deem fit, even if that is borne out of ignorance. Hence the need of support from govt.

No no - I do hope you meant to have an opinion; that is a right every individual has. Discrimination is a crime.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Dear BHPians,

There will be two and more views always on a subject and definitely on a sensitive subject like this one. My only request is to respect the views of the other even if it is opposed to what the Supreme court has ruled. Let dissent pour forth. Let expression not be curtailed. Only then can both sides appreciate all the nuances involved and the multiplicity of views on this matter. There will be a vast number in our society who will take one or two generations to fully embrace what the SC has accepted and ruled in favour of. By not letting them express their dissent we will only drive the silent disagreeing majority underground. Over time maybe 30 years attitudes will change.

Duly noted and in agreement

[KrisTvpm]

There is a saying in Malayalam which roughly translates to English as "There will be two sides to the argument, even if one hits at his/her own mother" ! Guess it's somewhat similar in this case also - there will be two (or more) sides to this historical verdict (and the underlying reason) as well, as OP rightly pointed out.

Personal viewpoints may depend on one's cultural/social background & upbringing - I may not be comfortable with this entire premise, but someone else maybe at ease with it, and someone whose sexual orientation is homosexual may find my hetero/straight-ness unacceptable as well! IMHO, both sides need to respect each others' perspective, and not resort to verbal/physical assault as soon as this topic is broached. Have a small difference of opinion here though - people taking to the streets/public places to show off their "pride" is something which I couldn't appreciate!

As some members rightly pointed out, our society will take another 1 or 2 generations to fully come out of the antipathy towards homosexuality. In part this could be also because we haven't heard/seen such issues in our society when we were growing up (notwithstanding the view that such orientation was part of ancient Indian culture, and it was not seen as a "vice" back then). Till then, let common sense prevail and let the society not judge individuals upon their sexual preference as long as it is not disrupting the overall law&order situation and it is kept private! Just my tuppence..

[highonwheelz]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Talking about marriage, I don't find anything wrong in gay marriage, but then I don't like the govt having a say in anybody's family. It is good that gay people could live with the companions they like to live with. but...

(dangerous territory) i find gay people having children very hard to digest. Since gay people can't procreate within the family, they have to resort to ways that are, err, unnatural, which of course, is not hard to do these days. BUT, the well being of the child would, I guess, be better in a man-woman family.

Why exactly would gay people raising kids be hard to digest? And why would the well being of the child be any lesser in a gay or lesbian marriage? A bit homophobic I guess? It is issues exactly like this why cannot be amended by any law. It needs to be a cultural change, from within.

If the argument is going to be that the kids of homosexual couples will grow up gay, its not like the kids from heterosexual marriages grow up straight

Grow up, take a chill pill, be inclusive, give people a chance.

[Ford5]

Originally Posted by highonwheelz

Why exactly would gay people raising kids be hard to digest? And why would the well being of the child be any lesser in a gay or lesbian marriage? A bit homophobic I guess? It is issues exactly like this why cannot be amended by any law. It needs to be a cultural change, from within.

If the argument is going to be that the kids of homosexual couples will grow up gay, its not like the kids from heterosexual marriages grow up straight

Grow up, take a chill pill, be inclusive, give people a chance.

Wonder why every question is assumed as a homophobic stance by LGBT folks. If a child of a gay couple naturally likes another gender as is the natural order, the gay parents are bound to massively disappointed and may sabotage it to any extent to maintain their norm, which in effect will lead to reverse out gay syndrome. That's another can of worms nobody wants.

Picture this, if all the children of god stopped being normal, then humanity would end because no procreation will take place with the argument of growing up and being inclusive.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by Ford5

Picture this, if all the children of god stopped being normal, then humanity would end because no procreation will take place with the argument of growing up and being inclusive.

Hey, you let the answer to your rhetorical question from the first part of your post slip there!
Sexual preference is ingrained, not injected. That is exactly what the LGBTQ have been fighting for. Picture this: how many people did ramdev make "normal"? And how many parents of LGBTQ kids have been successful in turning their kids hetero?
Individual choice. There's not going to be any evolution that turns everybody gay, so leave it be.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Ford5

Nope. Normal is the way you and I were born my friend. This definitely can't be denied. There's no choice here you see. That's why going against the norm isn't normal.

Well, I just don't know what to say here. I'll just step out.

[Ford5]

Originally Posted by mayankk

Hey, you let the answer to your rhetorical question from the first part of your post slip there!
Sexual preference is ingrained, not injected. That is exactly what the LGBTQ have been fighting for. Picture this: how many people did ramdev make "normal"? And how many parents of LGBTQ kids have been successful in turning their kids hetero?
Individual choice. There's not going to be any evolution that turns everybody gay, so leave it be.

Nope. Normal is the way you and I were born my friend. This definitely can't be denied. There's no choice here you see. That's why going against the norm isn't normal.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Ford5

Nope. Normal is the way you and I were born my friend. This definitely can't be denied. There's no choice here you see. That's why going against the norm isn't normal.

It is such shame that you have very awkward definition of normal. In many countries the world around your stance would be considered discriminatory.

If a child of a gay couple naturally likes another gender as is the natural order, the gay parents are bound to massively disappointed and may sabotage it to any extent to maintain their norm, which in effect will lead to reverse out gay syndrome. That's another can of worms nobody wants

I doubt very much that gay couples would be disappointed if their children have a different sexual orientation than themselves. If anybody understands how sexual orientation works it is them. It certainly hasn’t been an issue for the gay couples and their kids we know.

Narrow mindless of people calling gay people not normal is what disappoints them, most likely.

Jeroen

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

It is such shame that you have very awkward definition of normal. In many countries the world around your stance would be considered discriminatory.
If anybody understands how sexual orientation works it is them.

Well said Jeroen. Thank you for putting this across.

[ninjatalli]

There's a very pertinent quote of Jay-Z in an interview with David Letterman; on why there's a positive angle to view the Trump presidency "He's bringing out an ugly side of America that we wanted to believe was gone and it's still here"

I'm happy this thread is here - at the most I can hope it'll help understand both sides of the argument, and especially the naive assumptions that folks make or have been believing through their lives on LGBT matters.

Originally Posted by Ford5

If a child of a gay couple naturally likes another gender as is the natural order, the gay parents are bound to massively disappointed and may sabotage it to any extent to maintain their norm, which in effect will lead to reverse out gay syndrome. That's another can of worms nobody wants.

No sir - that's not how the world works. On the contrary, gay folks would be even more aware of the nuances of sexual preferences and how it is not a choice, and would be open to their children's preferences.

Picture this, if all the children of god stopped being normal, then humanity would end because no procreation will take place with the argument of growing up and being inclusive.

Originally Posted by Ford5

Nope. Normal is the way you and I were born my friend. This definitely can't be denied. There's no choice here you see. That's why going against the norm isn't normal.

I really can't add anything more than what @jeroen has said. I sincerely hope you throw away these primitive views and make more efforts to understand the reality.

[Ford5]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

It is such shame that you have very awkward definition of normal. In many countries the world around your stance would be considered discriminatory.

Jeroen

I am all for family values. Normal family values. It's such a shame when somebody goes against them, whoever it may be, courts, system, closet gays etc. And for your kind information acceptance by a few countries doesn't mean the whole world is to blindly follow and tear to shreds what is essential for human life to go on.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Ford5

I am all for family values. Normal family values. It's such a shame when somebody goes against them, whoever it may be, courts, system, closet gays etc. .

Remarkably how some people only like “their normal” and "their normal family values”.

Let’s just keep it that your definition of normal and family values differs wildly from mine.

Jeroen

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

No sir - that's not how the world works. On the contrary, gay folks would be even more aware of the nuances of sexual preferences and how it is not a choice, and would be open to their children's choices. I sincerely hope you throw away these primitive views and make more efforts to understand the reality.

Wish I could be so sanguine. Agreed - gay parents are unlikely to impose their sexual preferences on kids. But they are just as capable of having other prejudices. I am willing to bet you will see ads wanting Fair Rich Agarwal Grooms for an Affluent, well Educated Boy of 34 as Gay Marriage becomes accepted in India. Anyone who believes all Gays are tolerant should look at the writings of Milo Yiannopolous

Originally Posted by Ford5

I am all for family values. Normal family values. It's such a shame when somebody goes against them, whoever it may be, courts, system, closet gays etc.

Sorry buddy but what you just said is extremely prejudiced and would be a firing offence in most large companies today. I won’t hold that against you - most of us from my generation have gone through an evolution in thinking on this topic, and I dare say you will too. Will quote my own journey on this subject. As an Engineering student in the early 1990s, I was as homophobic as anyone else at that time. Our group of friends casually tossed around anti gay slurs. But as one grew up and worked in a large MNC, one came across efficient, smart and helpful colleagues (and yes, the odd jerk as well) who were “Out at Work”, and often in stable, loving same sex relationships that they talked about as openly as you would talk about your wife or kids. I must admit that I have changed in the last 20 years, and this exposure helped when we learnt that one of our classmates was happily married to another man and settled in the UK.

This sort of change is not unique to India or Indians - as people around the world have realised that LGBTQ folks are not oddballs or degenerates but just normal folks who love someone of their own sex, acceptability has grown. And given our tolerant culture, I believe that this change will happen a lot faster in India than in most other parts of the world. Don’t forget that the bench that passed this judgment was headed by CJI Mishra, who has been criticised for being too close to our current consevative government. This judgment is a great step towards bringing about this cultural change - over the next few years, you will find you have friends who come out, and will almost certainly abandon your prejudice when you find it conflicts with personal experience.

[highonwheelz]

Originally Posted by Ford5

I am all for family values. Normal family values. It's such a shame when somebody goes against them, whoever it may be, courts, system, closet gays etc. And for your kind information acceptance by a few countries doesn't mean the whole world is to blindly follow and tear to shreds what is essential for human life to go on.

I am really at a loss for words, but I will try my best here. Slavery when abolished for the first time, was only done by a few countries. Women's suffrage was given only by a few countries in the beginning. It was very crucial to for these few countries to make bold moves and the whole world followed. Today it is hard to think of a world where women were denied the right to vote. It changed with great efforts by great people who selflessly worked for the cause. Not the people who were trying to deny them those rights.

Even in the Indian context, Sati was practised to uphold "family values" and show your loyalty to your husband. Widow remarriage was shunned by society to uphold "family values". What we take for granted today, was not necessarily so about 50 years back. Hopefully there will be a day, 50 years from now, when we will look back at this thread and be dumbfounded with the stuff which we had to deal with.

Originally Posted by Ford5

Picture this, if all the children of god stopped being normal, then humanity would end because no procreation will take place with the argument of growing up and being inclusive.

Picture this, Penguins have for thousands of years exhibited homosexual behaviour, like a majority of other animals. There was no law in the penguin kingdom which banned homosexuality nor was it ostracised within their community, as concluded from several behavioural studies. Guess what, it didn't make their population dwindle. If anything, its humans like you and me who are making them go extinct, not gay sex. As I said, grow up, take a chill pill, be inclusive and give people a chance.

[bigron]

One thing that I have observed over the years is the way adult gay men conduct themselves here in India compared to overseas.
Now I could never tell the sexual orientation of an adult gay female no matter where I travel, India or overseas. They are same all over.
However, when it comes to males, most of the gay men I ve interacted with here in India have a decidedly feminine profile to them. Something I did not observe when I was studying overseas back in early 2000s. I had a few friends who were gays and up until the course ended I was un aware of their sexual orientation. There was nothing in their demeanor that was different from mine. But here, its as if they want to stand out. Now it could be because of this closed conservative society that we have that they are compelled to behave in a certain way to show their orientation. I cant say. But I hope this amendment to the act will give them a chance to be themselves in public.
I am a strong advocate of the live and let live policy. Do whatever rocks your boat.