[lazy]

Originally Posted by vibbs

……………..

Anyways to cut the long story short, It will benefit everyone if you could substantiate your points with supporting material as well, specially for people like me who believe eating meat in moderation helps in keeping good health.

Otherwise even I can make statements like- points you mentioned in your post before the quoted one, are grossly generalised and cannot be farther from truth. But making such a statement doesn't serve the purpose of having a debate or even discussion if not substantiated with evidence.

vibbs

I gave enough examples, please research on your own to find the truth.

I have learnt that it is futile to provide article/report/news links because every each one will have a report that proves the opposite. Doesn't help the discussion, only prolongs it.

Also, what I research for is different from yours because what my current diet is, so I probably search whether Seer fish is bad or what's a healthier option, or sea vs fresh water fish, or how to avoid mercury deposits, or what happens when dairy farms feed cows fish waste, what eggs are better, or …..

Originally Posted by bblost

Thanks for accepting that there is NO study that can prove your earlier post.

…….
Am not sure what your gist is. You like to make a point and instead of actually proving something continue to make more and more points.

I hope we both can continue our debate well into our 90's.
At which point I will win this argument.

bblost

You misquote me. Read my post again.

Note the timestamps between my post and yours - 55 minutes.
I have been reading about food and nutrition since the past 3-4 months and am still learning.

Lets not spend energy and search for links just to counter the other's point.
I gave some directions/gist, research on those or similar topics based on what you current diet is.

You can win, man.
I didn't think this was an argument.

Living upto 90 isn't the goal. We all probably will, if there's no accident.
Goal is to live up to 80/90/100 without ANY medicines/surgery.

Originally Posted by 400notout

You don't provide any data

You say veganism is best,

Yet you are non vegetarian,

You sir are truly.. er.. lazy.

To other non condescending vegans I must ask,

400notout

I did provide enough pointers, please research on your own, that's the only way to be convinced.

eg. I just saw the thread on XUV500 airbags not deploying. Despite so many concrete examples, majority of folks there do not accept that there is a problem with M&M's product.

And food-health is a significantly more complex relationship, and most scientific research take the singular/reductionist approach ie. take only 1 variable at a time, and needs to be studied over years.

So, really it is futile to share links/articles/videos/etc on plant based diets superiority, because people will always have enough links/articles/videos/etc with the counter.

Yes, am lazy.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Finally!

.....

Likewise every point you claim is either due to overconsumption or adulteration. But you have conveniently made blanket statements instead. It would really make for a healthy conversation if you backup your claims with relevant links.

Crazy Driver

I'll only reiterate the need to research - it is really important.
Spend lots of time and read from multiple sources - it is your health.

Milk actually leeches calcium from our bones, makes osteoporosis patients even worse. Meat protein has the same effect on our bones.

See above for what I view on sharing articles/research etc.

…………..

And, all the above is still on the health aspect of plant based food being superior to animal based one.
We haven't even started talking about the environmental impact of animal based foods and the compassion angle.
Truth isn't pleasant.


cheers
lazy

[bblost]

Originally Posted by Guna

To me 'lack of evidence' in either way is not conclusive, but yes it fails to establish the theory. There are many other links which talk in the favor as well. My intention was to tell that it is not a superstition.
]

Please make up your mind.
It's either a valid theory or it's a superstition.

@lazy,

It's not about winning. I don't think you have provided any links that substantiate what you say on this forum.
Just repeating the same lines that others need to research your theory does not really help any argument or debate.

In any case cheers to a long, healthy, virile life for all of us.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by bblost

Please make up your mind.
It's either a valid theory or it's a superstition.

Interesting to know that most things in your world probably qualify to be superstitions (including Darwin theory or big bang theory as they are mere hypothesis and are not 'proven').

[bblost]

Incorrect. There is a lot of proof in favor of both Darwin and Big Bang.

There is nothing in favor of your alkaline foods from any reputable place.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by bblost

Incorrect. There is a lot of proof in favor of both Darwin and Big Bang.

There is nothing in favor of your alkaline foods from any reputable place.

I thought the very idea of such thread is to discuss even things which are still evolving and may not have been yet established. Scientists are still clueless about all the causes of Cancer. Personally I would not wait till things are established but will try to follow if I am convinced that there could be some truth. This includes suspected role of sugar, plastic, overuse of mobile phones etc. I wouldn't term them as superstitions. Another fear I have is, with so much at stake, there are powers which lobby and influence the public psyche.
Anyway, that is me and I rest my case.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by Guna

Another fear I have is, with so much at stake, there are powers which lobby and influence the public psyche.
Anyway, that is me and I rest my case.

Actually you do have a very valid point and the best example is tobacco.
A lot of research by tobacco companies was suppressed as it was deemed bad for their business.

However my main argument is not about the how a vegetarian diet is bad or a Omnivore diet is better.

My main point is that the only diet which can actually work is one of moderation.
The way we evolved as an Omnivore, who now resides in cities, it's best to eat everything. But because of the latter point to do so in moderation.

[extreme_torque]

Sorry to be away for so long after starting this thread. Eating meat or using animal products to me is a purely ethical choice and with that in mind some of the argument about plants being another life form and hence being equal to animals is more of an excuse for our guilty conscious than an informed reasoned argument. Plant are a life form in the sense that they grow but unlike sentient beings who have a subconscious, have a central nervous system and brain and therefore can feel a range of emotions including pain, they do not have a central nervous system and a brain and therefore do not feel pain or have sub conscious.

The second argument is that human are built to eat meat. While the jury is still out on this one, I wonder how many of us would, if we had to kill the animal we want to eat ourselves? How many of us would salivate subconsciously looking a pig/chicken/cow compared to a fresh strawberry? How many of us would like to eat cold raw meat? Veganism isn't as extreme as you think it is especially if you are a vegetarian already. Paneer can be easily replaced with Tofu and is much healthier and milk can be replaced by various other options such as soy milk, almond milk or coconut milk. Other bits like avoiding leather shoes or belts etc are relatively easier and cheaper too.

Factory farming animals is the cruelest practice in existence ever since the human beings have existed on this planet. We not only hurt them physically, we also torment them in the worst way possible mentally and emotionally. What these animals go through before they are killed and prepared as food for your plate is nothing short of unprecedented horror. Even if we take the ethical argument out of this one, there is still a very strong argument to made for the planet and global warming. Factory farming is a huge contributor to the green house gas emissions. Also, where do you think animals get their proteins from?

[bblost]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I wonder how many of us would, if we had to kill the animal we want to eat ourselves?

I love this question. I have no qualms running a knife over the throat of an animal and then dressing it up for consumption.

I am also very sure that most people born just a century back would have been completely fine doing this.
The supermarkets and separation of food production and consumers has caused this rift.

But I wonder how many vegans are going to be able to grow and harvest enough plants for their own use.

We live in a world where both meat and plants are prepared by people who know what they are doing.

It took me less than 10 minutes when I was barely in my teens to learn how to slaughter a chicken and carve it up.

Do you think you will be able to learn how to plant and harvest rice in a year?

How many of us would like to eat cold raw meat?

If its fish, there is a full cuisine built around it.
Also note that there are a lot of vegetarian foods that cannot be consumed raw.


While raw meat may not be appetizing to most people. The smell of just meat grilling in a hot fire is enough to make most people salivate.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by bblost

I love this question. I have no qualms running a knife over the throat of an animal and then dressing it up for consumption.

Question is how many. I know many hard core non vegs who wont.

Originally Posted by bblost

I am also very sure that most people born just a century back would have been completely fine doing this.

And we weren't farming animals on a scale we do today to feed the population we have. Also, world has moved since then. The argument can be made that we weren't always monogamous or that sati was a thing but we have moved on.

Originally Posted by bblost

The supermarkets and separation of food production and consumers has caused this rift.

Family farms cannot support the population we need to feed and at that price. Its more demand than anything else. The immunity to suffering comes from well run campaigns - happy cows in milk adverts, happy chicken in egg adverts etc.

Originally Posted by bblost

But I wonder how many vegans are going to be able to grow and harvest enough plants for their own use.

Do you have a poultry farm for the chickens you eat? I wont, just like many non vegs don't. We pay for the product and someone else does it for us. Fair game.

Originally Posted by bblost

We live in a world where both meat and plants are prepared by people who know what they are doing.

What do you mean by they know what they are doing?

Originally Posted by bblost

It took me less than 10 minutes when I was barely in my teens to learn how to slaughter a chicken and carve it up.

A fully grown chicken. Did you raise it from when it was an egg, then separated the males and females, gave them modified food so that they grew quick and collected the eggs from females. I know the answer to the question already.

Originally Posted by bblost

Do you think you will be able to learn how to plant and harvest rice in a year?

A moot question again. I dont have to do it just like to use a software I dont have to write it.

Originally Posted by bblost

While raw meat may not be appetizing to most people. The smell of just meat grilling in a hot fire is enough to make most people salivate.

There are a lot of other things which are more appetizing than a piece of flesh on a hot fire. What is your point?

[bblost]

@extreme_torque:

You asked how many Omnivores can handle the process of getting meat. I asked the same about vegetarians.
This is a life skill, which irrespective of food choices has been lost to a vast majority of people.

Incidentally the first chicken I slaughtered was raised in my home. I think I have eaten a couple of its forefathers, siblings and great great great grandchildren as well.

You raised the point about a strawberry and it looking more delicious than meat.
Fruit Salad - Chicken 65.
We all know which is more desirable for a vast majority of people around the world.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by bblost

@extreme_torque:

You asked how many Omnivores can handle the process of getting meat. I asked the same about vegetarians.

I am sorry but I feel you are now arguing for sake of arguing. It is apparent to anyone reading that my comment was about handling it emotionally.

Originally Posted by bblost

This is a life skill, which irrespective of food choices has been lost to a vast majority of people.

Yes if your name is Bear Grylls but I cant see how this is a "life skill" for an average bloke, even one who is a hard core non veg, on the street.

Originally Posted by bblost

Incidentally the first chicken I slaughtered was raised in my home. I think I have eaten a couple of its forefathers, siblings and great great great grandchildren as well.

The first fruit I ate was plucked from a tree, therefore I must be growing my own trees to eat fruit.

Originally Posted by bblost

You raised the point about a strawberry and it looking more delicious than meat.
Fruit Salad - Chicken 65.
We all know which is more desirable for a vast majority of people around the world.

How is a raw fresh strawberry equal to a slaughtered chicken? Ask people if they want to eat chicken 65 or fruit salad if they had to cut the chicken themselves.

I am not judging you for eating meat but you are making it really hard not to, by trying too hard to justify why you do.

[bblost]

An average bloke born before 1918 would treat this as a life skill. It's only the luxury of supermarkets and packaging that makes people get so alienated from their true nature that we feel raw meat is gross.

I really don't understand why you think comparing a fresh strawberry, which can be consumed raw is the equivalent of meat which is eaten cooked.

Do you look at spare parts of a car and find them equal to a finished product.

Meat is food. It has been since the first two legged ape decided to start walking.

It's fine to be vegetarian or vegan but trying to impose your ethical lines on anyone is simply crazy.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am not judging you for eating meat but you are making it really hard not to, by trying too hard to justify why you do.

Isn't that the whole point anyways? The condescending tone was quite evident from the opening post, till it was edited out by mods. Still is, with statements like the above.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Plant are a life form in the sense that they grow but unlike sentient beings who have a subconscious

How do you explain these? PS - Sharing links to previous post to avoid going in circles.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post4461985 (The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread)

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by bblost

An average bloke born before 1918 would treat this as a life skill.

Without even going into the merit of this argument, how is it relevant today?

Originally Posted by bblost

It's only the luxury of supermarkets and packaging that makes people get so alienated from their true nature that we feel raw meat is gross.

Name one supermarket which sells meat in India. ONE. How are you so sure it's true nature? Does it a 1 year old kid want to cut a chicken if he sees one and eat it? For the sake of argument, even if it is true nature, given we are human beings with highest level of intelligence among living beings and with capacity to do anything, why is it wrong not to consume animals or torture them for their produce? For taste?

Supermarkets in the west have played a huge role immunizing people from the suffering of the factory farmed animals because the packaging does not show the horror a modern slaughter house is.

Originally Posted by bblost

I really don't understand why you think comparing a fresh strawberry, which can be consumed raw is the equivalent of meat which is eaten cooked.

No I am comparing plant produce to a tortured before slaughtered, sentient living being which you said were the same thing.

Originally Posted by bblost

Do you look at spare parts of a car and find them equal to a finished product.

Can you join the parts of a slaughtered chicken and make it alive?

Originally Posted by bblost

Meat is food. It has been since the first two legged ape decided to start walking.

We are not an ape anymore and there weren't 7.5 billion apes to feed. What reason/argument could there be to harm a sentient being when we can easily survive on a plant based diet which studies have proven is better for health and also save the planet in the process? Do you have an idea of how much harm meat diet is having on the planet and more importantly on your health? The earth can grow enough food to sustain every human being on the planet, but it can't if everyone suddenly started eating meat.

Originally Posted by bblost

It's fine to be vegetarian or vegan but trying to impose your ethical lines on anyone is simply crazy.

I am not imposing my ethical beliefs on anyone but I do ask how is needless violence and torture on sentient beings not an ethical question? Its a question that I asked myself when I was consuming meat and other animal products.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Isn't that the whole point anyways? The condescending tone was quite evident from the opening post, till it was edited out by mods. Still is, with statements like the above.

From my opening post
"The purpose of this thread is not to judge anyone on their eating habits but to connect with other vegans (or to be vegans) on tbhp."

And please read through the response before you accuse me of condescension. On the same lines, isnt fallacious response to personal ethical questions condescending? Is it too much an ask to discuss ethical dilemmas between adults?

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

How do you explain these? PS - Sharing links to previous post to avoid going in circles.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post4461985 (The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread)

How does this prove the presence of a nervous system, a brain and a sub conscious? Iron rusts when it comes into contact with water but we dont say its alive?

[bblost]

@extreme_torque.

Sorry its a bit of a personal question, but when did you last visit India?

I live in Hyderabad.
These are just a few of the really big supermarkets near my home that sell unprocessed raw meat, chicken and fish.
1. Star HyperMarket.
2. Spar Supermarkets.
3. Hypercity inside InOrbit mall.
4. Metro cash and carry has a HUGE selection of all types of meats.

You can also buy frozen chicken and fish from one of the many Ratnadeep supermarkets.

These supermarkets are also present in cities like Bangalore, Chennai etc.


Seeing as you live in Melbourne, I can just wonder how you manage to live in a country that has one the highest per capita consumption of meat.
Must be really tough holding on to your Vegan beliefs. I fully appreciate your lifestyle choices and must say you are able to live in a way with beliefs much stronger than I can even imagine.
I mean this with absolutely no sarcasm.