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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Veganism?
I am one already! 44 10.26%
I love my tandoori chicken! 253 58.97%
I am vegetarian/pescatarian etc etc. 107 24.94%
Veganism excites me and I want to know more 44 10.26%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 429. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10th January 2019, 12:24   #256
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Vegetarian or veganism is good as an eating habit, but so is non-vegetarianism.On moral grounds, veganism is just a lifestyle choice. At best, it is a step against commercialized butchering, that's it. Rearing animals and killing them en-masse for eating is immoral, hence one converts to Veganism - OK.

Eating non-veg, keeping everything else aside, is not bad. Is it? What if a chicken died naturally? Can we eat it? anything wrong with that? It's already dead!

What about Honey? Silk? or further, Mosquitoes? Termites? Cockroaches, rodents in our houses?

For all it's worth, try farming on your own - as if your life depend on it (if the crop fails, you die of hunger). Take no pretensions, you will kill every organism coming your way, which can harm the crop output.

In animal rearing, organisms are killed on purpose, to be used as a food. In farming, organisms are killed on purpose because they are useless. ( as a part of my college course curriculum, I have done both - raised crops and poultry)
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Old 10th January 2019, 16:20   #257
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The only reason I support veganism is because they are comedy gold,my YouTube feed is full of it. The only constant is the urban upper class virtue signalling, anthropomorphism and of course violence against workers in food and dairy industry. I wonder why they don't stop taking antibiotics and vaccination if they are hell bent on nature having its way.
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Old 10th January 2019, 17:53   #258
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Originally Posted by am1m View Post
Either way, coming back to the purpose of this thread. Would really like to hear the viable alternatives to milk. Soya milk I guess. Does it have the same nutrients? Is it as easily accessible? And what about cost?
There are a lot of milk substitutes, personally I like Almond and Oat best. Both are fairly easy to make at home and cost-effective.

For those of you that care about the environment, this article with a comparison of different milks and environmental markers (carbon footprint, land usage and water usage) is interesting -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042

And for people interested in nutrition, this ranking of the 100 most nutritious foods is definitely worth looking at -
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2018...tritious-foods

Last edited by aah78 : 10th January 2019 at 19:45. Reason: additional information. EDIT: Fixed spacing.
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Old 10th January 2019, 20:28   #259
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Not so sure if Almonds are very good for the Environment.

https://www.theguardian.com/food/201...probably-wrong

Maybe the article is humbug. But there is no denying that California, which produces 80% of the Almonds in the entire world, is suffering its worst droughts ever.

Also there is the environmental cost of transporting all those almonds.
The cow is next door or maybe within a 20 kilometer radius.
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Old 10th January 2019, 20:53   #260
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Not so sure if Almonds are very good for the Environment.

https://www.theguardian.com/food/201...probably-wrong

Maybe the article is humbug. But there is no denying that California, which produces 80% of the Almonds in the entire world, is suffering its worst droughts ever.

Also there is the environmental cost of transporting all those almonds.
The cow is next door or maybe within a 20 kilometer radius.
I guess it also depends on where you are located and where you are buying your food from. IMHO I don't think transport of dried fruit is such a problem as it is the water-content in food that is heavy, bulky and difficult to store.

Do almonds in India come from California or grown closer to home? Any idea about oats?
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Old 10th January 2019, 21:47   #261
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I don't need to watch PETA propaganda videos. You see, I grew up around farms and estates.

You have been fed a bunch of lies, and literally brainwashed into calling your fellow humans child rapists.

Veganism is not natural at all.
Unfortunately, the majority of the meat and dairy industry is for profit and getting more and more industrialised as we speak. The idyllic small-holding is ideal but no longer a way of life for most people. Even people in villages do not produce all their necessities themselves and rely on shops because it is cheaper and easier than making everything yourself.

As far as I know it is humans who are child rapists, most animals are not big on that. In addition, the meat and dairy industry does use rape as a means of impregnating female animals. The days of natural mating and reproduction are dying out with female animals being artificially inseminated as it is more profitable. It's not just in the west either, it's happening in India already - https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/65538127.cms

No modern diet is natural. Barring the handful of people who are still hunter-gatherers everyone depends on relatively modern technology for sustenance.
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Old 10th January 2019, 22:58   #262
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Could anybody please point out, from where the vegan person will get Vitamin B12?

I could not find out relevant discussion, thus posted this question.
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Old 11th January 2019, 00:32   #263
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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
Edit: Hotdogs are made by feeding in live chicken into a machine?
I am sorry. But have you ever seen the amount of feathers a chicken has?
I wouldn't make a statement without having seen the proof of it. I will pull out the exact video and share it.

Meanwhile, please do watch the videos which show the reality of the farming industry including dairy, chicken, cows, pigs etc. Please do tell me, which part of what happens in the videos is ethical or just. There are innumerable videos like these on the internet. I have just pulled out some.








Quote:
Originally Posted by hdus001 View Post
Well a lot of insects, animals, bugs and birds do get directly impacted by farming, probably far more in number than those calves. Many sentient beings that we consider pests and hence kill with pesticides have just as much a right to live as other animals. Also a bit of googling might dispel the "does not involve killing the male calf" in the dairy industry.
Will share the exact video. And the video I have seen is from Indian Dairies, so not even of a foreign country.

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Originally Posted by dailydriver View Post
There comes the tipping point!

You have, in your zealousness to put forward a noble cause like veganism, gone overboard and brought in issues that are too far fetched to be associated with this discussion. I could counter them with similar, stronger arguments, but as I have maintained earlier, I do not want to spoil anyone's experience of eating peacefully. So, I will stop this inane debate.
Well, you have just stated that the example is far fetched without giving any reasoning for the same.

Let me share the similarities in both the situations: Both child and the animal suffer physical pain and emotional trauma. More importantly, both are helpless. They are not in a position to resist and fight back. Just because the sufferer in one case is a human child doesn't make it any different or more painful than the main suffered by an animal.

Please do watch the videos I have shared above and state what part of it is ethical and just.

Again saying, simply because someone made a choice, even if that be a choice of food, doesn't make it right only because it is someone's choice.

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Originally Posted by fiestarry View Post
Today's urban dwellers are too far removed from the grisly reality of animal and poultry breeding, the cruel treatment of those beings and their brutal slaughter......His anger and blood lust is quenched temporarily when he bites into the flesh of the sad bird or animal that stood no chance to represent its own cause. And the meat industry won't give them a chance ever, will they.?
Very very well said.

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Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
Disclaimer - I am an unapologetic meat eater, who has had the experience of killing, dressing, chopping, cooking and eating live animals, and am perfectly at ease with the entire idea even now. But, I can see why it may not work for everyone.
The discussion here is about the ethics and justness of the whole farming industry. A lot has already been said about it, so won't repeat it. Please do watch the videos shared and point out what part of it is ethical, fair and just. But since you talk about being unapologetic, let me also point out that almost all struggles for rights of all kinds, fought by the oppressed and for the oppressed, are fought against oppressers who have all been totally unapologetic about the violations they did. For example: Whites that kept blacks as slaves; Indian Patriarchical system where women were forced to commit sati; there are really innumerable examples.

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Vegans must understand they do not have a monopoly over 'The Truth'. We all are simultaneously knowledgeable and blind in equal measure.

In my home my wife, mother & I are egg-veg, 2 of the kids eat every thing that walks & flies, my aunt is a vegan (without knowing there is a term for it).... and the youngest has turned vegan because she wants to experiment.

What we need on this thread is toleranceatarianism. Gosh I might have just invented a new word :-)
No one is claiming a monopoly over the truth. We are all simultaneously learning. At least I am. However, I am still waiting for a justifiable rationale explanation about this "Right to eat by whatever choice one makes". If power justifies the said supposed Right, please do ponder over a question: "Do I have the right to eat a neighbour's human child, only because I have the power to do it, and because that is a choice I want to make?" (Please don't go into the legality of it).

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I don't need to watch PETA propaganda videos.

What you are is a victim of PETA video propaganda. You have been fed a bunch of lies, and literally brainwashed into calling your fellow humans child rapists. I suggest you seriously think how these PETA videos have twisted your thought process to this extent.

I swear.... Those of us who visit butcher shops actually see these meat grinding machines. I can't even imagine how a live animal can be fed into it. I think they fed a live chicken into a wood chipper machine, and showed it to the naive PETA audience as the truth. So the actual people who did that are PETA filmmakers.
Please do watch the videos shares above. They actually do show live chickens being thrown into a grinding machine. Please do care to mention which of those are PETA videos and which part of those videos seem ethical, fair and just to you. Also, since you talk about free range chickens, are you saying all the chicken and meat produced and consumed in India and elsewhere is free range?

As to calling fellow humans child rapists, I have already explained in my earlier post and also in this post above about the similarities in the two situations. Please do care to counter the point with logical and reason.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
No. You are talking fantasy.
You don't give any reason. Haven't so many other species survived without messing with nature. If so many other species have survived without messing with nature, I am sure humans as well can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
Also there is nothing wrong in claiming to be an animal lover if you like cats or dogs. It has to begin somewhere.
Appreciate and understand that bit. But since you have already participated in the discussion and are now part of it, please do share your thoughts on the proposition: "Is a choice made by a human justified, merely because it relates to issues like food and faith?" My counter question to that would be: "What if I like the taste of human flesh and have the resources to kill and procure it, would that be justified, only because I made that choice?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Could you please check if they fed a live cow for beef sausage and a live pig for pork sausage?

Very interesting story this is.
Please do watch the videos shared above and state what part of it is ethical, fair and just. Clearly, you have nothing of sense to contribute and hence the false humor you have sought to bring in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralJazz View Post
I hope you are not serious! The very fact that you and I have survived so far is proof that we are messing with nature. If we weren't, we probable would have been eaten as a baby, died due to disease/parasites, killed for a mate, killed by a mate, died from starvation and so on. There are n number of ways to die in the wild. The fact that we have eliminated many of them are proof that we are messing with nature.
A lot of species have survived for longer periods of time (than humans) on earth without messing with nature, so I am serious when I say we can survive without messing with nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by am1m View Post
You said it man! Sadly, for a lot of people veganism becomes like a religion and like any religion often becomes illogical, preachy and begins to turn off the very people who might be seriously considering a logical shift. Instead of considering the science, the arguments go into emotional hyperbole, exactly like this one seems to have.
I have already explained above the rationale to for the analogy I gave. Please do care to explain what is wrong in it.

And no, Veganism has not become a religion to me. [As an aside, on the religion front, I am an athiest] So far as Veganism is concerned, please do watch the videos I have shared above and point out the ethical, fair and just part of the acts shown therein. I am absolutely open to hear one logical argument about what is right in saying that one has a right to choice of food. In fact, to contradict what you said, I can also say that for people who just want to continue doing what they do because its convenient to them, food is like faith and religion to them and they are blinded by it; no logic, reason, fairness and ethics can get between them and their food / faith.


Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
The only reason I support veganism is because they are comedy gold,my YouTube feed is full of it. The only constant is the urban upper class virtue signalling, anthropomorphism and of course violence against workers in food and dairy industry. I wonder why they don't stop taking antibiotics and vaccination if they are hell bent on nature having its way.
I am sure you have the same views about women fighting for their rights, sati practised in India, slavery that was practised for centuries, criminalisation of homosexuality etc.

Please do watch the videos and point out what part of the videos seem ethical, fair and just to you.
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Old 11th January 2019, 00:47   #264
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The videos you have shared allegedly show the killing of male chicks because they are considered useless.

They don't show the grinding up of live hens to make hot dogs.
Which only goes to show just how much you know about how an animal is slaughtered and then dressed.

Should animals be kept alive in comfortable environments and then killed in a humane manner. Absolutely. There is hardly anyone here who will argue against that.

In fact as a consumer of meat, I take care to find and get ethically managed farms.

But also as an omnivore, who belongs to the species homo sapiens, I am not going to go against nature and try to adopt a vegan lifestyle.

I also take strong objection to your trying to call an omnivore as a child rapist.
That is a very wrong way to be arguing your point. I hope you realize that such kind of comments do not help your cause in the least.

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Originally Posted by Touringlawyer View Post
A lot of species have survived for longer periods of time (than humans) on earth without messing with nature, so I am serious when I say we can survive without messing with nature.
This is really funny. Every species as it multiplies will automatically mess with nature.
From the mosquito to the dinosaur. Everyone leaves their mark on nature.

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Originally Posted by '72 Bullet View Post
I guess it also depends on where you are located and where you are buying your food from. IMHO I don't think transport of dried fruit is such a problem as it is the water-content in food that is heavy, bulky and difficult to store.

Do almonds in India come from California or grown closer to home? Any idea about oats?
India imports.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/57753800.cms

Oats, not so sure.

But the milk of almonds and oats is completely different from dairy. Its like comparing apples to chicken nuggets.

Last edited by bblost : 11th January 2019 at 00:52.
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Old 11th January 2019, 00:56   #265
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The same reasoning holds true here.
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Originally Posted by '72 Bullet View Post
As far as I know it is humans who are child rapists, most animals are not big on that.
Are both of you trying to implicate others who don't agree with this fallacious concept that you subscribe to, to be criminals?

Stick to your philosophy but don't cross that line.
Use this thread to focus on your chosen lifestyle only, please, not to put other's choices down!
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:33   #266
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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
But also as an omnivore, who belongs to the species homo sapiens, I am not going to go against nature and try to adopt a vegan lifestyle.

I also take strong objection to your trying to call an omnivore as a child rapist.

But the milk of almonds and oats is completely different from dairy. Its like comparing apples to chicken nuggets.
Adopting a vegan lifestyle is no more 'going against nature' than a modern omnivorous diet.

I do not think omnivores are child rapists. Modern animal husbandry does use rape in the form of artificial insemination though. The meat and dairy industry is borderline criminal when it comes to animal welfare. By using these products we support these industries.

The information about oats and almond milk was meant for am1m who wanted to know a bit more about vegan milks. I thought that is what the point of this thread is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aah78 View Post
Are both of you trying to implicate others who don't agree with this fallacious concept that you subscribe to, to be criminals?

Stick to your philosophy but don't cross that line.
Use this thread to focus on your chosen lifestyle only, please, not to put other's choices down!
I am not of the opinion that all omnivores are child rapists, I am sure there is no correlation between criminality and diet. I was just responding to someone who in turn was responding to someone else saying how can you call humans child rapists; my view is that some humans are child rapists and that it is not a big feature in the animal kingdom. It is definitely off topic and doesn't belong in this thread.

What belongs in this thread is that modern animal husbandry does utilise rape in the form of artificial insemination as a means to increase efficiency and profitability. The meat and dairy industry is borderline criminal. By using these products we support these industries.

Last edited by Eddy : 11th January 2019 at 10:14. Reason: Merged
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:17   #267
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Dear @TouringLawyer & @'72Bullet, this is a forum for genteel discussion not for preaching and conversion. By calling those who eat meat and/or dairy products as rapists, child eaters and comparing them to perpetrators of Sati you have crossed the line once too often. You seem incapable of appreciating that billions of humans, perfectly decent in all ways, do not agree with your beliefs. You seem to be on this thread to convert rather than discuss and share. Desist, please.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:57   #268
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Originally Posted by Touringlawyer View Post
Please do watch some videos of how hot dogs are made (chickens fed live into a machine)
This got me interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bblost View Post
The videos you have shared allegedly show the killing of male chicks because they are considered useless.

They don't show the grinding up of live hens to make hot dogs.
Which only goes to show just how much you know about how an animal is slaughtered and then dressed.
But then the videos you shared don't seem to show how hot dogs are made. :(


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Originally Posted by Touringlawyer View Post
I wouldn't make a statement without having seen the proof of it. I will pull out the exact video and share it.

....

Please do watch the videos shared above and state what part of it is ethical, fair and just. Clearly, you have nothing of sense to contribute and hence the false humor you have sought to bring in.
You think I'm the one who's providing humour in this thread?

Many including myself have said this time and again in this thread. Use this space to share positive content about vegan diet. It's just unpleasant to see all the slandering about morality.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:59   #269
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Originally Posted by Touringlawyer View Post
The discussion here is about the ethics and justness of the whole farming industry. A lot has already been said about it, so won't repeat it. Please do watch the videos shared and point out what part of it is ethical, fair and just. But since you talk about being unapologetic, let me also point out that almost all struggles for rights of all kinds, fought by the oppressed and for the oppressed, are fought against oppressers who have all been totally unapologetic about the violations they did. For example: Whites that kept blacks as slaves; Indian Patriarchical system where women were forced to commit sati; there are really innumerable examples.
1. The discussion here, started with a poll in which close to 60% people are comfortable with exercising their full range of choices when it comes to food habits.

2. The discussion in this thread, then bloomed into Vegans and Vegetarians discussing and sharing with each other, food options with such diets. This is why I used to follow the thread, to simply observe and learn.

3. At some point, this thread got waylaid by people who wanted to preach and convert, taking some supposed moral high ground. Mr. V. Narayan has made an excellent observation and point in his previous post, and Mr. Shetty has articulated very nicely the counter-arguments. You might want to re-read those once you are in a frame of mind to explore the divergent view point.

4. Your analogies are completely lost on me - maybe I am a less evolved human and hence I cannot appreciate the similarities. I can't yet see how I am being likened to a criminal here.

5. I am able to keep a clear distinction in my mind between killing animals to eat, and harassing or killing animals (or plants) for sport/pleasure. It is also what I have observed at very close quarters in the animal world, in my almost weekly trips into jungle ecosystems.

6. I too have a problem with all things that are farmed at mass scale - that includes poultry, fish and agricultural produce, and even extends to the very premise of cooking! In fact, I am a long time follower of the hunter-gatherer philosophy. It is just that, following such a lifestyle in it's entirety, in an urban setting is well nigh impossible, that too when you have a family to feed.

7. I am not here to convert you or convince anyone of my point of view, but by stating a different point of view a lot of people here are telling you that such a different POV exists and in that respect, most respectfully, while your handle may be 'touringlawyer', it isn't 'touringjudge' yet!

I am out of this thread!

Last edited by roy_libran : 11th January 2019 at 09:06.
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:00   #270
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Ok so now we are equating meat eating to being influenced by Western thought after being equated to child rapists. I will refrain from such discussions though (child rapist one). But on the westerners influence part.

Do we intend to suggest all indians were vegans before the westerners set their feet in India? If not, I do not understand the logic of statements like above.

Yes I am a meat eater and an unapologetic one. Sorry if that sounds unethical and immoral to some here. Someone told me drawing a line is easy. Yes I have drawn a line. To eat whatever is legal to eat and I feel like eating.

This means I will eat Beef in a land where it is legal and I will eat pork as well where it is legal. I will not eat dog even if it is legal, I won't eat insects either. My choice as long as I don't break any laws.

Yes meat industry can be more humane, but then I would not want to single out this as the only one causing agony and pain to animals or environment. Because I firmly believe that as a human being I am evolved to be an omnivore and eating meat is more natural to me than say switching on an AC at the slightest instance of heat or driving a car for the love of it or even convenience.

Last edited by vibbs : 11th January 2019 at 09:07.
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