[bblost]

Lazy,

Based on your hypothesis that meat is unhealthy compared to vegetarian diet, can we say that a vegetarian or more specifically a vegan will not only live longer but also be more virile in old age?

[Guna]

Originally Posted by turbospooler

The concept of minimum harm is further evolved from the level of sentience the being who/which is being harmed for food.

Are following prohibited among Jains? I am just curious

• Honey
• Silk
• Leather footwear
• etc

We are only talking about 'direct' harm here. Many of the products we use involves some kind of harm to animals elsewhere. For instance when you use palm oil, you may be indirectly encouraging the killings of wilds animals such as Orangutan in Indonesia. If you buy cosmetics, they may have been tested on animals (even medicines, for that matter)

@bblost, yes I do believe vegetarians have relatively long and healthy life (assuming all other factors like lifestyle and moderation on salt, sugar, saturated oil, alcohol, tobacco etc) are equal.

['72 Bullet]

My story
I grew up in a family of meat-eaters. Being Nepali we ate a lot of mutton, pork, buffalo, chicken and fish but beef and sea-food like crabs was on the menu as well every once in a while. I am also not a stranger to blood-shed as every Dashain (Dussehra) most families slaughter goats or chicken (sometime communities or very large families sacrifice buffalo) and seeing animals being killed at temples is quite common as well. As a child I used to help shave the fur off the carcasses and remember roasting goats ears over an open fire (it's what kids do). During my teens I used to fish quite a lot in lakes and have slaughtered chicken for picnics etc.

It was in my early twenties while volunteering at a small organic farm in Germany that things started to change for me. The farm had European water buffalo, Galloway cattle and sheep along with some horses and donkeys. It was while working with the animals that I realised that they are all extremely intelligent and each have their own personalities. I understood the need and demand for meat and I drove some of the animals I took care of to the slaughter house. I still ate meat, I was just a bit more aware of where it came from, it was better for me to eat meat from an animal which had a name rather than from a factory farm. Back in Nepal I stopped eating buffalo except when I was in a village (how they transport animals into Kathmandu is terrible, in a village I could ask whether it was from an animal they had reared themselves) and ate only local chicken as opposed to broiler.

Around 6 years ago I decided I was ready to stop eating meat (was still eating fish, dairy and eggs). It had been troubling me(industrial farming and animals being mistreated) for a while and thought it was now the right time to stop. About a year after that I stopped eating fish as well. It's now been about 2 years that I stopped dairy and eggs and finally became vegan. I still have leather shoes and clothes made of wool or down but I am in the process of phasing them out.

My wife and I are now vegan. There is no moral superiority or elitism involved. It's just a choice that we made based on our love for animals. We do not like how animals are treated in the food industry and do not want to be part of it anymore. We have a dog who is vegan too.


Line in the sand
Some of you have been talking about plants being alive and capable of suffering. My current line in the sand is beings with a brain and central nervous system. We might hypothetically share more of our DNA with a potato than a goat but for me the goat is something I can interact and communicate with. It is a matter of relate-ability.


Health and diet
We are all active especially running, trekking and climbing. I run 1-2 Ultra marathons each year and train boxing 2 times a week. My wife runs as well, is very strong and is a yoga teacher. Being vegan hasn't had any impact on my strength or performance, I am fitter and stronger than I was in my teens. I have also been pretty much the same weight since I was 16. I do not take any supplements (multi-vitamins or protein powders).

It has been quite easy to make the transition as we both like cooking and experimenting in the kitchen. As mentioned no supplements so we make sure to eat a varied diet and food-pairings are quite important (some vegetables go better with others, some grain and legumes paired together provide complete proteins). As mentioned we don't take supplements so we have to make sure we get enough iron (leafy greens, cruciferous veggies) and B12 (Yeast extract, nutritional yeast flakes and sea-weed). The internet is great for ideas and recipes.

We also buy organic food and source most of it from a local farm. I look upon the extra cost and hassle as an investment, hoping that I will be able to avoid the more common life-style diseases in the future. Only time will tell.

Eating out can be a bit of a challenge as most chefs are not really into making good vegan food. When we have to choose a place to go out, we also have a look at Happy Cow - https://www.happycow.net


Thoughts
I know we have evolved to be omnivores and that being vegan is perceived as being 'unnatural'. Being in front of screens all day, driving in cars, flying around the world, wearing clothes, reading and writing, even eating cooked food is all unnatural and are recent developments that we are not really designed for but we do it anyway. I believe in being open-minded and willing to change. It is technology and the understanding of nutrition that allows us to be vegan(and thereby reduce the suffering to animals) and I am happy to embrace that.

Getting enough protein (or other macro-nutrients) is not an issue at all with 100g of soya(as an example, there are loads of legumes, nuts, grains that we can get a good balance of nutrition from) containing more protein than 100g of meat. Micro nutrients are more complicated but not difficult.

You can also be active and healthy. Well-known athletes such as Venus Williams, heavy-weight boxer David Haye, MMA fighters Nate & Nick Diaz and Jake Shields, Ultra-runner Scott Jurek are all vegan. These are just the ones that I know off the top of my head there are lots of other top athletes that rely on plant-based diets.


There is a lot of pressure to be 'normal' and eat meat in my life. In the sub-continent it is 'cool' and 'progressive' to eat a more westernised diet with lots of meat. In the western world, vegans are perceived as fussy and uptight people who want to guilt other people out of eating meat. I do not think it is the case with most of the vegan people I know, most just do it on compassionate grounds because they do not like how animals are being treated around the world.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Guna

@bblost, yes I do believe vegetarians have relatively long and healthy life (assuming all other factors like lifestyle and moderation on salt, sugar, saturated oil, alcohol, tobacco etc) are equal.

Would be interested to know if you have any scientific base for this, or is it just a 'belief'?

Average life expectancy in India is highest among the below three states.

1 Kerala 74.9
2 Delhi 73.2
3 Jammu and Kashmir 72.6

And these states are predominantly mixed diet consuming states.

Kerala - 97% meat+veg, 3% only veg.
Delhi - 60.5% meat+veg, 39.5% veg.
Jammu - 68.55% meat+veg, 38.45% only veg.

[Malyaj]

None of the above options for me.

I am non vegetarian but I won't say 'I love my tandoori chicken'. Occasionally I get the itch which I scratch. Otherwise I can go on without meat for extended periods, though I was almost a carnivore at some point.

I am for anything that reduces suffering of living creatures. It's sad that sometimes veganism gets a bad rap due to its espousal by fashionable people. The story of humankind is that of evolution and I am sure if we try to turn vegan in a big way, we can eventually, without losing our health and minds.

Currently I am setting double standards by believing in something and practising something else. I own a restaurant that serves non vegetarian food. It was originally intended to be a vegetarian restaurant but it wasn't working out. I was without a job, had invested all my liquid savings in the restaurant, and had no scope left to be resilient any longer. The competencies of my chefs and preferences of my customers forced us to change. We brought in a tandoor and grill and updated our menu. We are profitable now.

The reason I narrated this is economics. For me it was the economics of business. For others it is the economics of survival. For many people, especially in poor countries, meat is the cheapest source of protein, strange as it may sound. Organ meat, gizzard, etc are often cheaper than vegetables and milk products (on a per unit protein basis) and their prices less susceptible to wild fluctuations. If these people did not have access to it, their diets would be mainly starch based, which would lead to other complications.

There are actually 2 questions here -

1) Can the world turn vegan and survive? I feel yes. Whether our eyes are in the front or on the sides, we will survive. We have far too many advantages over other species. Poor things don't stand a chance against us. And we will also figure out a way to feed the whole world.

2) Does the world want to turn vegan? Mostly no. In fact I notice that Indians are eating meat with a vengeance. Children raised in vegetarian families are eating copious amounts of meat, and the "chicken only" types are finding joy in mutton seekh kababs, beef steaks and bacon

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by gkveda

Here are the sample scientific evidences. There are multiple such points to prove

The evidence doesn't really hold water. How do you explain Gorillas and other primates who have forward-looking eyes as well as sharp teeth while being primarily vegetarian (sometimes snacking on termite larvae, etc.) and never eating meat?

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

My story

Line in the sand
Some of you have been talking about plants being alive and capable of suffering. My current line in the sand is beings with a brain and central nervous system. We might hypothetically share more of our DNA with a potato than a goat but for me the goat is something I can interact and communicate with. It is a matter of relate-ability.
.

Coming to the suffering of plants, even insects dont feel pain ! Nice to read your story.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Would be interested to know if you have any scientific base for this, or is it just a 'belief'?

Average life expectancy in India is highest among the below three states.

1 Kerala 74.9
2 Delhi 73.2
3 Jammu and Kashmir 72.6

And these states are predominantly mixed diet consuming states.

Kerala - 97% meat+veg, 3% only veg.
Delhi - 60.5% meat+veg, 39.5% veg.
Jammu - 68.55% meat+veg, 38.45% only veg.

Mine is more of a belief. Also, we can't conclude that the higher life expectancy in these states is because of the food habits alone.

[turbospooler]

Originally Posted by Guna

Are following prohibited among Jains? I am just curious

• Honey
• Silk
• Leather footwear
• etc

We are only talking about 'direct' harm here. Many of the products we use involves some kind of harm to animals elsewhere. For instance when you use palm oil, you may be indirectly encouraging the killings of wilds animals such as Orangutan in Indonesia. If you buy cosmetics, they may have been tested on animals (even medicines, for that matter)

Yes, we (my family) don't buy leather etc.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Would be interested to know if you have any scientific base for this, or is it just a 'belief'?

I don't think there are enough people living on plant-based diets to come to a definite conclusion.


There are a lot of well-known people on vegan diets who look great for their age, but they might just be outliers with amazing genetics.


This guy is inspirational though - https://www.collective-evolution.com...-for-50-years/ He does not look like a 25 year-old greek god but is very rational and knows what he is talking about.

[lazy]

Originally Posted by bblost

Lazy,

Based on your hypothesis that meat is unhealthy compared to vegetarian diet, can we say that a vegetarian or more specifically a vegan will not only live longer but also be more virile in old age?

It is no longer a hypothesis, please use the internet and learn. The truth is out in the open.
Answer to your question - yes.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Would be interested to know if you have any scientific base for this, or is it just a 'belief'?

Average life expectancy in India is highest among the below three states.

1 Kerala 74.9
2 Delhi 73.2
3 Jammu and Kashmir 72.6

And these states are predominantly mixed diet consuming states.

Kerala - 97% meat+veg, 3% only veg.
Delhi - 60.5% meat+veg, 39.5% veg.
Jammu - 68.55% meat+veg, 38.45% only veg.

Data has too many gaps, eg. look at Odhisa, Andhra, Assam, Jharkhand.
Unable to explain the higher life expectancy using veg-nonveg alone.

cheers
lazy

[bblost]

Originally Posted by lazy

It is no longer a hypothesis, please use the internet and learn. The truth is out in the open.
Answer to your question - yes.

I tried. Turns out there is no statistical proof as the number of vegans is quite low.

Vegetarians and Omnivore. No conclusive evidence on that as well.

I request you to provide some actual medical study that shows your hypothesis as valid.

Funny thing is as an omnivore, if you find some vegan super food, I can eat it.
A vegan won't have much luck in copying my diet.


Life Expectency:


Meat Consumption:

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by lazy

It is no longer a hypothesis, please use the internet and learn. The truth is out in the open.
Answer to your question - yes.




lazy

Well as much as you would want to believe that you have found the secret to long life, for every study supporting a predominantly vegetarian or vegan diet equal number of studies can be shown supporting the other spectrum.

So well truth is out in the open and answer to his question is no.

Best diet is one which has a mix of both. Please search the net a bit more and you would see that.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by srishiva

The post was implying that eating meat has higher life expectancy.

Absolutely not.

My post implies that the 'belief' that vegeterians have better life expectancy does not hold good based on this data. This does not imply what you have stated, neither have I claimed it.

There's a big difference between the two.

The claim was made by a fellow BHPian regarding vegeterianism, and I'm most welcome to accept it if it can be backed up with real scientific evidence, and is open to a healthy conversation on the same.

Originally Posted by srishiva

Point is that people who eat meat do eat everything else. And anyway its part of a healthy diet and not just that.

I do agree whole heartedly -

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

On a related topic -What about Non- Vegeterians?

A vegeterian is a person whose diet excludes meat / fish / egg / milk etc as their choices demand.

A non- vegeterian is not the opposite of a vegeterian as the moral agenda seems to call out - I'm yet to see a person who doesn't eat what a vegeterian would eat. Every so called non-vegeterian ever eats their vegeterian food + substitutes it with meat.

Now - viewing this from the scientific background that the human body needs this balanced diet (let's not consider supplements here) and was evolved this way, this entire naming convention itself seems to be based on a moral agenda.

I mean - what if people who like their meat start calling others as 'non-meatarians' or something? Infact, it actually makes more sense in a literal way as it (the usage of 'non') refers to the abstinence of meat by the choice of the individual, rather than the current phrase of 'non-vegeterian' which implies that the individual doesn't have a plant based diet, or even implies morally to some as a negetivity of a vegeterian diet. Neither of which is really true.

And my understanding is that this usage has Indian origins. Before the recent advent of veganism, foreigners would be surprised at the usage of the term non-vegeterianiasm.

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

Health and diet
We are all active especially running, trekking and climbing. I run 1-2 Ultra marathons each year and train boxing 2 times a week. My wife runs as well, is very strong and is a yoga teacher. Being vegan hasn't had any impact on my strength or performance, I am fitter and stronger than I was in my teens.

Vegans are perceived as fussy and uptight people who want to guilt other people out of eating meat. I do not think it is the case with most of the vegan people I know, most just do it on compassionate grounds.

Great post @72 Bullet. Wish there was a thank button on this thread.

A number of folks have argued that non vegetarian food is essential for being fit. As @72 Bullet has said, vegans and vegetarians can be extremely fit. I have friends in my running group, who are vegetarian or vegan, and run sub 4 hour full marathons and ultras(in their late 40s)

And claiming that there are health benefits from eating meat based on cross state life expectancy correlations in India (when we all know that the differences in life expectancy are driven by differences in wealth and the quality of governance between states) does not seem like a serious exercise.

There have also been some far fetched attempts to claim that cows benefit from being milked (as opposed to feeding their calves). That is unlikely to be true - as far as I know, in all mammals, the quantum of milk produced is correlated with the quantum of milk demanded, subject to there being no shortage of nutrients for the mother.

While I am not a vegan, I see the following benefits from veganism:

1) Minimal environmental impact
2) Lower cruelty to animals (which are a different form of life vs plants)
3) Health benefits unless you start believing in the Low Carb High Fat spiel

The downside is tradition and palate (which has been shaped by tradition). For me, the benefits are not enough to change my food habits yet. But perhaps one day....