[bblost]

Originally Posted by Hayek

A number of folks have argued that non vegetarian food is essential for being fit. As @72 Bullet has said, vegans and vegetarians can be extremely fit. I have friends in my running group, who are vegetarian or vegan, and run sub 4 hour full marathons and ultras(in their late 40s)

I completely agree with the highlighted part of your post.

The only extra point for me is that an Omnivore has it a little easier because of a bigger basket of available food options.

It does not mean that the person makes intelligent choices from the available options. Both the vegan and the omnivore can take either the worst or the best available to them.

[lazy]

Originally Posted by bblost

......
I request you to provide some actual medical study that shows your hypothesis as valid.


Life Expectency:
[]

Meat Consumption:
[]

Friend

There is no single scientific study that proves plant based diet is fully superior to a meat based one. So, yes, I can't provide.

However, you'll definitely find studies that conclusively prove -
- Dairy causes diabetes, certain cancers,
- Meat causes cholesterol, high BP, certain cancers, toxins in body,
- Meat takes up to 60 hrs to digest whereas plants food gets digested within few hours,
- Meat and dairy are acidic to body, very bad,
- Processed food is horrible for body, even processed vegetarian food is horrible,
- Protein requirements of body, and what happens when one eats more,
- ...

Cannot list everything, but I hope you get the gist. Read such research, and stitch the findings.

Note that I am not saying vegetarian food is healthy. Normally dairy is considered vegetarian, but it is probably one of the worst things to eat. Even processed vegan food is bad.
Only plant based non processed home made (with minimal oil and cooking) food is ideal.

cheers
lazy

[rdst_1]

So, we grow our own organic vegetables and I have asked this question to many Vegans but never gotten a satisfactory reply.
We rely on cow dung to use as manure as we don't want to use fertilizers.
So how do you grow enough organic food to feed people if everyone turned vegan without relying on domestic animals for their manure.

[lazy]

Originally Posted by vibbs

Well as much as you would want to believe that you have found the secret to long life, for every study supporting a predominantly vegetarian or vegan diet equal number of studies can be shown supporting the other spectrum.

So well truth is out in the open and answer to his question is no.

Best diet is one which has a mix of both. Please search the net a bit more and you would see that.

Thanks.

True, about the opposing point of view studies. That's why evolution gave humans such oversized brains - to apply.

The internet is an ocean of information, but that isn't knowledge. The information has to be understood in context, validated, cross referenced, etc, before it can be termed as knowledge.

If your research tells you mix diet is good for you, good. Mine doesn't. And it's ok.

cheers
lazy

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by lazy

Thanks.

True, about the opposing point of view studies. That's why evolution gave such such oversized brains - to apply.

The internet is an ocean of information, but that isn't knowledge. The information has to be understood in context, validated, cross referenced, etc, before it can be termed as knowledge.

If your research tells you mix diet is good for you, good. Mine doesn't. And it's ok.

cheers
lazy

Good that you understand the difference between knowledge and information. Perhaps you would have also read about how we ended up with over sized brains.

Anyways to cut the long story short, It will benefit everyone if you could substantiate your points with supporting material as well, specially for people like me who believe eating meat in moderation helps in keeping good health.

Otherwise even I can make statements like- points you mentioned in your post before the quoted one, are grossly generalised and cannot be farther from truth. But making such a statement doesn't serve the purpose of having a debate or even discussion if not substantiated with evidence.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by lazy

Friend

There is no single scientific study that proves plant based diet is fully superior to a meat based one. So, yes, I can't provide.

Thanks for accepting that there is NO study that can prove your earlier post.

However, you'll definitely find studies that conclusively prove -
- Dairy causes diabetes, certain cancers,

Nope: https://www.dairynutrition.ca/scient...ype-2-diabetes
Undecided: https://www.diabetesselfmanagement.c...etes-and-milk/

There is no study that says it causes when taking in moderation.

Certain Cancers: Again no. No study has conclusively proven it. The studies linking products to cancer is quite established. Like linking cancer with smoking and asbestos etc. But none that links it to milk.
However the source of milk is very important as some unethical people inject hormones to increase the yield.

- Meat causes cholesterol, high BP, certain cancers, toxins in body,

In excess isn't even water known to kill people?

Meat is actually quite safe. Almost all the meat on all the animals is safe to consume. No such luck with most vegetation.
Look at the number of plant species and how many can be consumed.
Compare that with the number of animal species and how many can be consumed.

- Meat takes up to 60 hrs to digest whereas plants food gets digested within few hours,

It may take a lot of time to go thru the body. But so does everything else.
Meat generally takes around 6-8 hours to be fully digested in the stomach and small intestines. The 60 hours you are mentioning is the total transit time.
Its almost the same for everything you eat.
The reason meat only diet may take more time is lack of fiber. Which means that there is not much getting into the large intestines to get pushed out.
Unlike some fiber rich foods which are not digested fully. This is not a bad thing. They provide the needed volume to push things out.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/li...08e4ad93671132

- Meat and dairy are acidic to body, very bad,

er What?
The stomach has one of the most acidic environments in the body.
How does meat make it more acidic.

- Processed food is horrible for body, even processed vegetarian food is horrible,

Agree. Finally something we both agree on.

- Protein requirements of body, and what happens when one eats more,

My sweat smells like ammonia.

I know as my meat consumption is higher than average.
But I like it and my routine blood tests don't show anything that I need to be worried about.

- ...

Cannot list everything, but I hope you get the gist.
Read such research, and stitch the findings.

Am not sure what your gist is. You like to make a point and instead of actually proving something continue to make more and more points.

Note that I am not saying vegetarian food is healthy. Normally dairy is considered vegetarian, but it is probably one of the worst things to eat. Even processed vegan food is bad.
Only plant based non processed home made (with minimal oil and cooking) food is ideal.

cheers
lazy

I hope we both can continue our debate well into our 90's.
At which point I will win this argument.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by lazy

That's why evolution gave humans such oversized brains - to apply.

cheers
lazy

You don't provide any data

You say veganism is best,

Yet you are non vegetarian,

You sir are truly.. er.. lazy.

To other non condescending vegans I must ask,

To me veganism sounds ideal even if utopian sounding, but doesn't it primarily depend of our awareness of where we get our supplies from?

I mean any processing of food or large scale farming can not survive without pest control. I know many have drawn the line at different places. Large farms do have an impact on vegetation and animal life too.

Looking at most of the vegan views here, it seems like death to the food manufacturing and processing industry as it is.

Overall I think veganism is continuously evolving and will mostly be relegated to individual values and lives.

Though far from perfect, with veganism one can be in harmony with nature.

One funny conversation I would like to share. I was having lunch with a three friends. One vegetarian was from US who said that whenever they travelled they checked in at Vegan restaurants at happycow to get vegetarian food as it is difficult to find actual pure veg food at regular joints. Funnily another friend who was non vegetarian said that while he was in Russia, he used to eat vegetarian/vegan as he was not sure of whether the meat was halal or pork free. I felt like quite an outcast as there are no restrictions I have on food whatsoever.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Hayek

A number of folks have argued that non vegetarian food is essential for being fit.

Could you please point out which post is that? All I could see is arguments that vegeterian / vegan diet is better and the defence against it from people eating meat as well.

There are Infact multiple posts which promote vegan lifestyle - that the world will be better with it and all - but can you point out a single post which asked a vegeterian to eat non-veg?

Originally Posted by Hayek

And claiming that there are health benefits from eating meat based on cross state life expectancy correlations in India (when we all know that the differences in life expectancy are driven by differences in wealth and the quality of governance between states) does not seem like a serious exercise.

Answered in the above post already. A repetition doesn't really add value.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by bblost

er What?
The stomach has one of the most acidic environments in the body.
How does meat make it more acidic.

Some foods are known to be acidic and some non-acidic (alkaline).
https://draxe.com/acidic-foods/
https://www.webmd.com/diet/a-z/alkaline-diets (this link also kind of challenges the concept)

Many believe that keeping the body more alkaline will keep the Cancer away.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by lazy

There is no single scientific study that proves plant based diet is fully superior to a meat based one. So, yes, I can't provide.

Finally!

Originally Posted by lazy

However, you'll definitely find studies that conclusively prove -
- Dairy causes diabetes, certain cancers,
- Meat causes cholesterol, high BP, certain cancers, toxins in body,
- Meat takes up to 60 hrs to digest whereas plants food gets digested within few hours,
- Meat and dairy are acidic to body, very bad.

By excluding the words 'over consumption' and 'adulterated', you've painted a truly dark but false image.

Dairy doesn't cause diabetes, overconsumption of it does! Read here for more, if you aren't convinced. "All of us, whether we have diabetes or not, need some dairy products (or non-dairy alternatives like soya products) such as milk, cheese and yogurt every day. These all contain proteins and vitamins and are an important source of calcium, which help to keep your bones and teeth strong. Adults and older children who consume too much fat may find they gain weight and too much saturated fat can cause your cholesterol levels to rise, which increases your risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD). "

Dairy doesn't cause cancer, adulterated milk does. "Studies looking into the link between cancer and dairy products have not given clear results. Studies looking into the link between cancer and dairy products have not given clear results. There is evidence that dairy products could reduce the risk of bowel cancer, but we cannot say for sure that this is the case. There is no strong evidence linking dairy products to any other types of cancer." Read more

Likewise every point you claim is either due to overconsumption or adulteration. But you have conveniently made blanket statements instead. It would really make for a healthy conversation if you backup your claims with relevant links.

Originally Posted by lazy

- Processed food is horrible for body, even processed vegetarian food is horrible

Now that's agreeable.

Originally Posted by Guna

Many believe that keeping the body more alkaline will keep the Cancer away.

Another 'belief' on the thread. Sigh. Wonder when superstitions start coming into arguments.

Please read the above material from cancer research UK. Evidence suggests dairy helps reduce bowel cancer, even though not conclusive.

Do you know cold milk is used as a household prescription against acidity? Read here - https://www.practo.com/healthfeed/7-...ity-29014/post

[Samurai]

Einstein was a vegetarian, yet he got E=MC2 wrong. So says this enlightened being...

I find the logic contradictory, may because I am not a vegetarian...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D0PIGkrS5g

[Guna]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

F
Another 'belief' on the thread. Sigh. Wonder when superstitions start coming into arguments.

These are not superstitions but hypothesis debated by scientific community. There are hypothesis and studies put forward by both sides and there is no conclusive evidence yet. That is the reason I used the word 'believe'. I am shocked that these are compared to 'superstitions' (ex: 'black cat crossing a road is a bad omen' )
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010438

[bblost]

Originally Posted by Guna

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010438

Your link does have a conclusion.

Conclusions Despite the promotion of the alkaline diet and alkaline water by the media and salespeople, there is almost no actual research to either support or disprove these ideas. This systematic review of the literature revealed a lack of evidence for or against diet acid load and/or alkaline water for the initiation or treatment of cancer. Promotion of alkaline diet and alkaline water to the public for cancer prevention or treatment is not justified

[Guna]

Originally Posted by bblost

Your link does have a conclusion.

To me 'lack of evidence' in either way is not conclusive, but yes it fails to establish the theory. There are many other links which talk in the favor as well. My intention was to tell that it is not a superstition.
I think many things are still inconclusive (or are constantly being challenged and new conclusion reached) when it comes to the diet. Take for example the case of 'cholesterol' which is no more considered as 'bad' in US
https://uk.style.yahoo.com/blogs/icy...l?guccounter=1

[ZedMae]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

My story
I grew up in a family of meat-eaters. Being Nepali we ate a lot of mutton, pork, buffalo, chicken and fish but beef and sea-food like crabs was on the menu as well every once in a while. I am also not a stranger to blood-shed as every Dashain (Dussehra) ---------
Line in the sand
Some of you have been talking about plants being alive and capable of suffering. My current line in the sand is beings with a brain and central nervous system. ------- most just do it on compassionate grounds because they do not like how animals are being treated around the world.

Excellent post '72 Bullet. Thanks a lot. Just shows that some of us can be slightly more sensitive to animal suffering/ environmental impact and consequently explore the option of turning vegan. It need not always be seen as someone taking a moral high ground or being elitist.