[roby_dk]

The veganism poll already has 60% votes in favour of non-vegetarian food. I have read all post in this thread and can't think of leaving chicken and mutton because of a simple reason that god has made us like this. We can digest either type of food so it is better to get the maximum nutrients from a meal by combined veg and non-veg diet.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by bblost

@extreme_torque.
Sorry its a bit of a personal question, but when did you last visit India?

This year and where I live we only have a Reliance fresh and Big Bazaar nearby and they do not sell any form of meat or meat products. I am from North by the way.

Originally Posted by bblost

Seeing as you live in Melbourne, I can just wonder how you manage to live in a country that has one the highest per capita consumption of meat.

Its the same story in much of the west but I do see change as I volunteer for "Cube of truth" outreach program. These outreach program are happening in most of the west. Berlin is already a mecca for vegans. I have seen people tearing up and giving up meat on the spot after watching the horrors animals go through once they were made aware.
https://www.veganaustralia.org.au/cu...vegan_outreach

Originally Posted by bblost

Must be really tough holding on to your Vegan beliefs. I fully appreciate your lifestyle choices and must say you are able to live in a way with beliefs much stronger than I can even imagine.
I mean this with absolutely no sarcasm.

To be honest its actually easier than in India. Australian fresh produce is some of the best in the world and given the sizeable number of Vegans, there are vegan restaurants almost everywhere and they serve fresh, honest to goodness lip smacking food. The supermarkets too have vegan options for just about anything - soy milk, almond milk, coconut milk, dairy free ice cream etc etc. There are even purely vegan fast food franchise such as "Lord of fries" which serve fake meat vegan burgers and french fries. I believe they are also opening up in India in a big way.

https://www.smartcompany.com.au/busi...-stores-india/

[bblost]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

This year and where I live we only have a Reliance fresh and Big Bazaar nearby and they do not sell any form of meat or meat products. I am from North by the way.

Maybe this kind of explains something. Most of South, East and Kashmir are predominantly omnivores with vegetarians forming less than 10% in some states.

Its the same story in much of the west but I do see change as I volunteer for "Cube of truth" outreach program. I have seen people tearing up and giving up meat on the spot after watching the horrors animals go through once they were made aware.

Wow.
Do they give it up for good or do they revert back to a meat based diet?

To be honest its actually easier than in India. Australian fresh produce is some of the best in the world and given the sizeable number of Vegans, there are vegan restaurants almost everywhere and they serve fresh, honest to goodness lip smacking food. The supermarkets too have vegan options for just about anything - soy milk, almond milk, coconut milk, dairy free ice cream etc etc. There are even purely vegan franchise such as "Lord of fries" which serve fake meat vegan burgers and fries. I believe they are also opening up in India in a big way.

But this fake meat thing is something I can never understand. It sounds kind of like cheating yourself. You know its not meat but still want meat.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by bblost

Wow.
Do they give it up for good or do they revert back to a meat based diet?

I can't verify that but I can verify that the tears were real and the horror on their faces after seeing what animals go through is real too
To give you a general idea of how it is, this is how it looks like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bfCcPpVas8

Originally Posted by bblost

But this fake meat thing is something I can never understand. It sounds kind of like cheating yourself. You know its not meat but still want meat.

You are not the first person to say this and I was expecting this after I wrote my last post. I like meat just like you do or any other by choice vegetarian would, i just choose not to eat it due to reasons mentioned. If I can have the taste of meat without harming anyone in the process, its a win win for me and the planet.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

If I can have the taste of meat without harming anyone in the process, its a win win for me and the planet.

But you can eat strawberries. Just kidding. Could not resist myself.


So you used to eat meat.
Obviously enjoyed eating it.
Now you are becoming or have become a Vegan.
Because of the inherently violent nature of how the animal was raised and killed.
But you still miss the taste and texture of meat.
So eat fake meat.

I was under the wrong impression that people who chose this Vegan lifestyle will actually find everything about meat as gross.
Thanks for clarifying it up.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by bblost

So you used to eat meat.
Obviously enjoyed eating it.
Now you are becoming or have become a Vegan.
Because of the inherently violent nature of how the animal was raised and killed.
But you still miss the taste and texture of meat.
So eat fake meat.

No I was a vegetarian most of my life. Started eating meat when I lived outside India (Chicken mostly). To be honest I felt a lot better as a vegetarian. Wasn't aware of the horrors of the industry too and once I did, I decided to stop.
I also visited a farm sanctuary where they keep rescued farm animals and interacted with them in their natural habitat, earth under their feet and sun on top of their head and cried my eyes out. It was both life changing and life affirming.

https://www.edgarsmission.org.au

Originally Posted by bblost

I was under the wrong impression that people who chose this Vegan lifestyle will actually find everything about meat as gross.
Thanks for clarifying it up.

It's not about meat only, else they would not have an ethical issue with drinking milk. You are welcome.

P.S. In the spirit of this forum, Tesla's are also vegan in case anyone is looking for a vegan car https://electrek.co/2017/07/22/tesla...ons-now-vegan/

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by bblost

I was under the wrong impression that people who chose this Vegan lifestyle will actually find everything about meat as gross.

Finding meat gross or odd smelling is a uniquely Indian phenomenon - and as you have pointed out, more common in parts of Northern and Western India than anywhere else. For most vegans or vegetarians in the West, it is a pure ethical issue - driven either by concerns about animal rights or carbon emissions. Hence the effort that lots of researchers are putting in to make realistic fake meat (including vegan patties that bleed). For someone like me who is vegetarian not for any ethical or religious reason but purely by habit, that sounds horrendous and unappetising - just as the smell of fish or meat being grilled is not appetising (no offence intended - this is just a statement of fact). But for most vegetarians in the West, that is not the case - and veganism will become far more common if someone develops an effective mock meat.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

P.S. In the spirit of this forum, Tesla's are also vegan in case anyone is looking for a vegan car https://electrek.co/2017/07/22/tesla...ons-now-vegan/

Wow.

I did not know this.
How about the tires, are they also vegan?

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

How does this prove the presence of a nervous system, a brain and a sub conscious? Iron rusts when it comes into contact with water but we dont say its alive?

It doesn't.

It proves that plants are 'alive'. Various studies have proven that plants do feel pain (or danger atleast), react to it, defend from it, and even chose to die out at signs of constant danger. Plants can even hear animals eating them, and react to it. They can live in harmony with siblings, compete with other species and some even known to take care of old plants.

What makes it feel more 'humane' is the fact that we can't see or feel their pain.

Like Samurai was explaining beautifully earlier - its about how we draw lines in the sand regarding this matter, till we learn photosynthesis inside human bodies. Your line in the sand is drawn based on the fact that we can't feel or hear plants in pain. Science is only even beginning to understand how complex plants are - that they have been 'living' much more complex lives than what we've been assuming due to the lack of nervous systems and blood inside them.

But you compare plants with iron?

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Is it too much an ask to discuss ethical dilemmas between adults?

Personally speaking - My 'line in the sand' is drawn at the aspect of food. I don't appreciate if something is killed off for other purposes than food. But yet - interestingly as Samurai pointed out earlier - why don't have that choice either. All of us, through taxes, pay the army to kill other humans - and even take pride in it.

Nor do I believe in excess of meat, nor abstinence of it - but I hate wasting food - plant or animal sources. Whatever we eat - we are eating something that had been alive, and I try not to have an excess of it and not disrespect the food by throwing it off.

I think I don't judge people based on what they eat - But I really do when people stuff their plates at a buffet counter and then just throw it off - as an example.

Originally Posted by bblost

How about the tires, are they also vegan?

Curious myself to know why you ask this - Isn't it only rubber based?

[bblost]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Curious myself to know why you ask this - Isn't it only rubber based?

https://www.stausaonline.com/tire-ma...uring-process/

The first step in our process begins with the weighing and measuring of the raw materials which go into Banbury mixers. Following a formula which has been developed, tested and perfected in our laboratory and on test vehicles, the compounder prepares the ingredients for mixing. The composition of a tire tread stock, for example, is rubber (natural and synthetic), carbon black (to give strength and abrasion resistance), sulphur (which causes vulcanization), accelerator (to speed up vulcanization), age resistors (to minimize the effect of sunlight water and air), zinc oxide and stearic acid (to help activate the accelerators and aid in processing) and oils (to aid processing).

The stearic acid is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid

Production
Stearic acid is obtained from fats and oils by the saponification of the triglycerides using hot water (about 100 °C). The resulting mixture is then distilled.[10] Commercial stearic acid is often a mixture of stearic and palmitic acids, although purified stearic acid is available.

Fats and oils rich in stearic acid are more abundant in animal fat (up to 30%) than in vegetable fat (typically <5%). The important exceptions are cocoa butter and shea butter, where the stearic acid content (as a triglyceride) is 28–45%.[11]

In terms of its biosynthesis, stearic acid is produced from carbohydrates via the fatty acid synthesis machinery wherein acetyl-CoA contributes two-carbon building blocks.

Do Vegans who abhor the use of all animal products also refuse the use of rubber tires?

The point I want to make is that whether we like it or not, animal products are all around us and its incredibly difficult to avoid them.

[avira_tk]

Does anyone going vegan bother with the effects of soy products on testosterone levels, especially on teens? Then there is the experimentation with their pets. I saw a youtube clip where some vegan was trying to feed his dog tofu or some such alternative and the dog was sick and near death, finally he had to get meat or face charges of animal cruelty. This sounds more like an ideology than any real diet.

Are there any professional athletes people pay to see who are vegan, I'm talking about big money franchises like tennis and football.

The vegan opposition to leather is another form of virtue signalling. Replacing leather with plastic for seats is probably the worst case scenario in terms of biodegradability, using plastic is environment friendly? Soy cultivation is responsible for the deforestation of the amazon as much as cattle ranching for beef and dairy. No real winner there.

The idea that the whole world would be vegetarian if slaughterhouses had glass walls is simply projection, I wouldn't change anything about my diet. Most people have no clue about the pesticides and chemicals used in fruit and vegetable farming. Commercial farming is absolutely choke full of chemicals, the yield is nearly 95% or more, absolutely impossible with natural methods. Check out the bananas in a supermarket and see how unnaturally perfect they are. People demand that, so I won't blame the farmers.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The vegan opposition to leather is another form of virtue signalling. Replacing leather with plastic for seats is probably the worst case scenario in terms of biodegradability, using plastic is environment friendly? Soy cultivation is responsible for the deforestation of the amazon as much as cattle ranching for beef and dairy. No real winner there.

Like in other form of agriculture, growing 1 kg of Soya will be less damaging than producing 1 KG of meat. Higher the animal is in the foodchain, more carbon footprint it leaves.
But the world cannot turn a vegan overnight (even if it wants to, I know it won't happen anytime soon) as livestock will overpopulate. But over a period of time, it may be possible to reduce the livestock and use most of the edible plants produce for human consumption (and for bio-fuel etc)

[rdst_1]

Originally Posted by Guna

Like in other form of agriculture, growing 1 kg of Soya will be less damaging than producing 1 KG of meat. Higher the animal is in the foodchain, more carbon footprint it leaves.
But the world cannot turn a vegan overnight (even if it wants to, I know it won't happen anytime soon) as livestock will overpopulate. But over a period of time, it may be possible to reduce the livestock and use most of the edible plants produce for human consumption (and for bio-fuel etc)

How do you grow organic food enough to feed the population of the world without using animal dung as manure?

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

I had no idea the world had started to produce meat in labs!

Meat agriculture - sounds strange, raises a lot of questions - but seems to keep the 'ethical' way for vegans to enjoy meat.

Question - Will vegans eat this meat now? Doesn't violate the compassion rule. So vegans can have? Looks like a reality within the next decade.

We tasted the first lab-grown sausage made without killing animals. It was smoky, savory, and tasted like breakfast
SEP 19, 2018, 01.24 AM

Silicon Valley clean meat startup New Age Meats made history on Monday by letting journalists taste the first cultured pork sausage made in a lab.

New Age Meats' sausage is the first cell-based meat to be made using both fat and muscle cells, which could prove key to nailing the flavor of traditional meat.

https://www.businessinsider.in/We-ta...w/65863817.cms

And it seems to be making inroads here in India as well -

“This is a disruptive technology that can solve a major global problem of greenhouse gas, ‘Methane’, 70% of which is contributed by the animal meat industry,” observed Union Minister Maneka Gandhi at the CCMB conference on ‘Future of Protein Summit’. Methane, a major by-product of mass scale animal rearing, with both food and excreta of cattle adding to the methane released in the air. It is not just methane that adds to the hidden environmental cost added Maneka.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/stat...b-1862516.html

Looks like cows and chicken will be extinct in the next two decades as humans no longer need them by then!

[Guna]

Originally Posted by rdst_1

How do you grow organic food enough to feed the population of the world without using animal dung as manure?

I don't know if growing organic food at such large scale is feasible. Even most of the veg food we consume are not organically grown. 'Vegan Organic' food at scale seems very difficult.