[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by Guna

Like in other form of agriculture, growing 1 kg of Soya will be less damaging than producing 1 KG of meat. Higher the animal is in the foodchain, more carbon footprint it leaves.
But the world cannot turn a vegan overnight (even if it wants to, I know it won't happen anytime soon) as livestock will overpopulate. But over a period of time, it may be possible to reduce the livestock and use most of the edible plants produce for human consumption (and for bio-fuel etc)

Going veg or vegan for food habits as a moral/ethical choice is one thing, adding to carbon footprints is different altogether - as we (humans) add the most to carbon footprints (and Don't say that we should all die to reduce the carbon footprints please).

Livestock add a lot to the carbon footprints - because we rear them in large numbers. Basically it is us who add to the carbon footprints, not cattle. Left on their own, domesticated animals would either die out, or would be left confined to stray grasslands and forests as wild animals. From nature, ecology, carbon footprints reduction, preservation of earth perspective, what we need is to reduce our population.

Coming to "growing 1 kg of Soya will be less damaging than producing 1 KG of meat" argument - yes and no. Yes it uses more to produce 1 kg meat than soya; but no, 1 kg meat would give more types of nutrients (as per RDA), than 1 kg soya. And, purely from efficient utilization perspective - we grow plants and rear animals. We eat some parts of a plant only, we feed the remaining parts to animals, eat animals, use every remaining part of animals for various purposes.

Considering that we humans are, and will always keep, exploiting Earth for our needs and desires - the more different type of foods we eat, more biodiversity will remain on earth - for what we find no use of - we chuck it out to extinction.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by bblost

So you used to eat meat.
Obviously enjoyed eating it.
Now you are becoming or have become a Vegan.
Because of the inherently violent nature of how the animal was raised and killed.
But you still miss the taste and texture of meat.
So eat fake meat.

I was under the wrong impression that people who chose this Vegan lifestyle will actually find everything about meat as gross.
Thanks for clarifying it up.

I used to eat a lot of meat growing up and still miss the flavour of it. Sometimes when I smell people cooking meat on a barbeque I do start salivating but do not eat meat because I do not feel it is the right thing for me to do.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Does anyone going vegan bother with the effects of soy products on testosterone levels, especially on teens? Then there is the experimentation with their pets. I saw a Youtube clip where some vegan was trying to feed his dog tofu or some such alternative and the dog was sick and near death, finally he had to get meat or face charges of animal cruelty. This sounds more like an ideology than any real diet.

Are there any professional athletes people pay to see who are vegan, I'm talking about big money franchises like tennis and football.

The vegan opposition to leather is another form of virtue signalling. Replacing leather with plastic for seats is probably the worst case scenario in terms of biodegradability, using plastic is environment friendly? Soy cultivation is responsible for the deforestation of the amazon as much as cattle ranching for beef and dairy. No real winner there.

I don't know much about the effects of too much soy on teenagers. What I do know is that my testosterone levels are fine despite being on a vegan diet. A lot of children and teens grow up on vegan diets and seem to be fine. Also, soy is not the only thing vegans eat there is a lot more out there. In fact a typical east-asian omnivore probably eats a lot for soy than a typical vegan.

If I was you I wouldn't take a typical youtube video at face value, whatever that guy was doing was animal abuse. My dog has been vegan for the past 2 years and is absolutely fine. In fact, look up the story of Bramble the vegan dog in the UK who lived 27 years. There are lots of companies that make ethical dog food - https://v-dog.com/ as an example.

There are lots of vegan professional athletes. Venus Williams, David Haye the heavyweight boxer, The diaz brothers who are MMA fighters at the UFC, lots of ultra-runners, there are also players in the NFL, NBA and some body-builders who reply on plant-based diets.

There are really good synthetic leathers now available that are made from pineapple skins that were previously discarded.

A lot of the soy grown is used as feedstock for cattle, pigs and chicken. Now tell me, is it more efficient for humans to consume the soy or whatever grain used to feed the animals directly or to first feed it to an animal and then eat the animal. Please also remember a large part of the animal carcass is discarded as waste.

Originally Posted by rdst_1

How do you grow organic food enough to feed the population of the world without using animal dung as manure?

Originally Posted by rdst_1

So, we grow our own organic vegetables and I have asked this question to many Vegans but never gotten a satisfactory reply.
We rely on cow dung to use as manure as we don't want to use fertilizers.
So how do you grow enough organic food to feed people if everyone turned vegan without relying on domestic animals for their manure.

There are lots of ways to fertilise your field/garden.
1) Composting kitchen-waste
2) Seaweed
3) And if you want something really good for the environment - https://www.nepalitimes.com/banner/toilet-trained/

[Guna]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Going veg or vegan for food habits as a moral/ethical choice is one thing, adding to carbon footprints is different altogether - as we (humans) add the most to carbon footprints (and Don't say that we should all die to reduce the carbon footprints please).

If veganism can be good to the environment, I don't know why that cannot be one of the reason to practice it.

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by Guna

If veganism can be good to the environment, I don't know why that cannot be one of the reason to practice it.

Veganism is one line in the sand (moral/ethical way of not contributing to the killing of animals). It may not necessarily be good for the environment and/or animals in general. Ecologically, it is a choice between being the apex predator and competing with other herbivores (and by relation - to carnivores too as generally carnivores are not man-eaters) for food. Either way, we being the superior race we are, will always win the competition. Usually, those who lose the competition for food, slowly fade away to extinction.

But that's ecological perspective only. Other than that, Veganism is not practically possible too. Petroleum is a animal based compound - so fuel, plastics and a lot of other things are also of animal origin.

Composts used for organic farming are basically animal products as well. There is a lot of active as well as passive role animals and microbes play in farming. Segregating animals and plants into vegan food is near impossible.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

I used to eat a lot of meat growing up and still miss the flavour of it. Sometimes when I smell people cooking meat on a barbeque I do start salivating but do not eat meat because I do not feel it is the right thing for me to do.

Please also remember a large part of the animal carcass is discarded as waste.

Not true.
That would be a very useless butcher who wastes any part of an animal.

I routinely slaughter and dress animals.
There is nothing except the ears and hooves, which are discarded.
Everything else is consumed.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

It doesn't.

It proves that plants are 'alive'. Various studies have proven that plants do feel pain (or danger atleast), react to it, defend from it, and even chose to die out at signs of constant danger. Plants can even hear animals eating them, and react to it. They can live in harmony with siblings, compete with other species and some even known to take care of old plants.

You are equating reaction to certain stimuli as being conclusive proof that plants feel pain and therefore my example of Iron coming in contact with water. The question is not whether they are alive, but if they have a subconscious, feel pain emotionally, physically - phenomena unexplained but science does know where it originates and where it ends. Please quote credible scientific studies which prove that plants have brain and they have a central nervous system.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

What makes it feel more 'humane' is the fact that we can't see or feel their pain.

Again irrelevant. Please quote a credible scientific journal or a study. The apple doesn't run away when I try to cut it with a knife and the apple tree does not shed tears of pain. They do not have a head, a pair of eyes and a brain on the top. There is no doubt that factory farmed animals have a sub conscious, feel pain and are sentient living beings just like us. If you are really serious about animal welfare and the physical and mental trauma factory farming causes to animals, please let us know how do you feel about it and what do you want to do about it? Equating factory farming of sentient beings to plants and their non existent pain is a huge insult to their suffering. All their suffering could atleast be for taste or oft used 'protein' if nothing else.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Like Samurai was explaining beautifully earlier - its about how we draw lines in the sand regarding this matter, till we learn photosynthesis inside human bodies. Your line in the sand is drawn based on the fact that we can't feel or hear plants in pain. Science is only even beginning to understand how complex plants are - that they have been 'living' much more complex lives than what we've been assuming due to the lack of nervous systems and blood inside them.

Lets work with what we know. How is speculating on an unknown equal to a factual known?

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

But you compare plants with iron?

If reacting to external stimuli as i earlier said is a conclusive proof of something being sentient then Iron must be too and so do a lot of elements from the periodic table.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Personally speaking - My 'line in the sand' is drawn at the aspect of food. I don't appreciate if something is killed off for other purposes than food. But yet - interestingly as Samurai pointed out earlier - why don't have that choice either. All of us, through taxes, pay the army to kill other humans - and even take pride in it.

Because soldiers kill each other in times of war, I will eat animals completely oblivious to their pain and suffering. Makes perfect sense. And please don't say we dont have a choice, we do.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Nor do I believe in excess of meat, nor abstinence of it - but I hate wasting food - plant or animal sources. Whatever we eat - we are eating something that had been alive, and I try not to have an excess of it and not disrespect the food by throwing it off.

Killing someone for taste when you could eat 100 other things without hurting anyone is excess. It human entitlement. Its disrespect to life forms and the plant we live on which is being killed bit by bit.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I think I don't judge people based on what they eat - But I really do when people stuff their plates at a buffet counter and then just throw it off - as an example.

That thrown food can be easily turned into compost and therefore manure. Please dont feel bad about it.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I had no idea the world had started to produce meat in labs!

Meat agriculture - sounds strange, raises a lot of questions - but seems to keep the 'ethical' way for vegans to enjoy meat.

Why does it sound strange, afterall every thing starts in life as a cell. You think they are doing this because plants feel pain and want to save them from the torture?

Ethical way for everyone to enjoy meat. Vegans can live without meat or any other animal product if it meant that someone sentient had to suffer for it.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Question - Will vegans eat this meat now? Doesn't violate the compassion rule. So vegans can have? Looks like a reality within the next decade.

Can't believe you are still asking this question after all the points that have already been put forward. So its a meat for vegans who have already given up on meat but not for meat eaters who inspite of knowing havent? Condescending much?

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Looks like cows and chicken will be extinct in the next two decades as humans no longer need them by then!

Again condescension. Perhaps you should take your own advice. Please read up on what is causing animal extinction. Hint: Its not the animals themselves!

Its one thing to debate based on reason, which many of us would actually enjoy, and completely another, and frankly quite annoying, to quote rhetoric and try to pass them as facts with condescension and complete disregard for feelings thrown in for good measure. I would not engage in another meaning less debate. Thank you.

[Enobarbus]

Originally Posted by bblost

There is nothing except the ears and hooves, which are discarded.
Everything else is consumed.

I once stayed in an Inn near Nailsea and Blackwell, England. They served crispy Pigs Ears for breakfast. Believe me you, they were seriously tasty. So tasty that I had them on all five days of my stay.

[sjain2054]

Originally Posted by bblost

You might want to reconsider that.
There is no super food, there is no mediocre food.
Everything has its own set of benefits.

There are always super foods and there are always mediocre foods.

From a Jain point of view, Onions and Potatoes are avoided because they are grown underground!

From a general point of view, the foods i mentioned are negative pranic foods! (Google it)
Avoid them over a period of 3 weeks, you will notice a difference in your energy levels etc. Me, a regular non veg eater of all kinds since forever, experimented with these diet changes and the difference was noticeable. Therefore, I stick to this diet as much as possible and I am not finicky about it..If i am travelling or going somewhere where I cannot avoid it, i'll eat anything and everything!

I mentioned green chilli..not chilli pepper!

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

That thrown food can be easily turned into compost and therefore manure. Please dont feel bad about it.

Vegans can live without meat or any other animal product if it meant that someone sentient had to suffer for it.

Compost - is an animal product. When a field is ploughed, it kills a lot of animals, insects and leving beings that feel pain, have eyes, legs and brain that live in soil. When harvesting is done, it is same there too. The tremendous amount of biodiversity that we have on this earth, it's impossible to eat anything without harming a life. True vegans are aliens living on vega star system At best, we can be vegetarian, that's it.

And if I may ask - Is it OK to eat an animal that have died of natural death? Because dead feel no pain.

[sjain2054]

Originally Posted by turbospooler

I feel veganism is just really weird concept and I am very biased towards people who are vegans as they don't understand the technicalities of food and sustenance but are simply moved by the fact that animals also have equal rights and should not be consumed. Why I say they don't understand technicalities is that consuming milk by milking a cow is seen as cruelty by them! If the cow is not milked, her udders are full, she feels uncomfortable. And if the cow is free range or so, what is the problem in consuming her milk?


I think veganism is an "ideology" (and not a concept) as it ascribes to converting people from their carnivorous diet to the supreme one they are following!

You may or may not understand or agree with Vegan way of eating but there is no need to be biased or anything..For whatever reason, if one is avoiding food that harms other beings, its good. Now one aspect of it, not drinking milk, does not agree with you but thats fine! More milk for those who want it.. !

Its the thought that counts. Therefore, as long as the thought in their head is no harm to animals, its good no! In today's world, we need that to whatever extent possible!

A lot of people ask me why do i eat non veg food despite being a Jain. The only aspect of Jainism they know/focus on is the diet! Being a Jain has soo many aspects! Fact is that I can follow the diet part of Jainism as long as I am at home or in my friends circle or in my country (as much as possible). In todays world I need to be flexible such that I can socialize and survive in the bigger world out there! If someone (not you..anyone out there) is biased against me just because of my diet..it doesn't sound right! I am so much more! Same for Vegans!

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Compost - is an animal product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

And if I may ask - Is it OK to eat an animal that have died of natural death? Because dead feel no pain.

What do you want to hear? I can't speak for every vegan on the planet, can i?

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Compost - is an animal product. When a field is ploughed, it kills a lot of animals, insects and leving beings that feel pain, have eyes, legs and brain that live in soil. When harvesting is done, it is same there too. The tremendous amount of biodiversity that we have on this earth, it's impossible to eat anything without harming a life. True vegans are aliens living on vega star system At best, we can be vegetarian, that's it.

And if I may ask - Is it OK to eat an animal that have died of natural death? Because dead feel no pain.

Insects dont feel pain. They are not supposed to since their life span is so short that they cant rest to feel pain and die doing nothing ! Now since they cant, can plants ? No. Any reaction to something does not mean it was as a result of pain and a brain working on that.

[Enobarbus]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I wonder how many of us would, if we had to kill the animal we want to eat ourselves? How many of us would salivate subconsciously looking a pig/chicken/cow compared to a fresh strawberry?

It is mostly illegal now, but I have a few friends who used to hunt/trap meat whenever possible. They used to butcher, dress and cook the meat themselves. They used to enjoy the whole process so much, that they used to sing paeans to hunting. I tasted some of the hunted meat they shared, but I never really found it that good. I would prefer farm grown meat any day.
What I understood is that they are addicted to the whole process of hunting; matching their skills against the animals' senses, outwitting and finally killing the animal. I believe it is their primeval instinct that repeatedly takes them to the jungle. These are perfectly normal, even mild mannered people in daily life. Hunting was their hobby, they don't have to hunt for a living.

I believe that humans were originally hunter - gatherers, hence omnivores.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by bblost

Not true.
That would be a very useless butcher who wastes any part of an animal.

I routinely slaughter and dress animals.
There is nothing except the ears and hooves, which are discarded.
Everything else is consumed.

It's not about the butcher, it's about the consumer and what cuts of meat are in demand. As a person you might be an efficient butcher, in a commercial setting only 43% of the animal is eaten - https://www.oda.state.ok.us/food/fs-cowweight.pdf

Just ear and hooves? What about teeth, bones, fur, skin, innards (you might eat some but not everything), blood and other bodily fluids? How much is all of that as a percentage of the animal weight? Is it a waste of valuable resources?

[avira_tk]

Veganism has been terrific in providing material for some great comedy on YouTube,mainly through some insane hyperbole about farming practices.

The activists and their anthropomorphism with respect to animals, their willingness to attack people working in farms and restaurants, is proof of their virtue signalling elitism.Vegan activists here have no qualms justifying lynch mobs murdering cattle traders, a common theme I've found in social media.

Saving animals by not eating meat is like conserving wheat by not eating bread. The animals would be culled as their upkeep becomes unaffordable. This trend of pushing veganism has been terrible for the economically weaker sections. Eggs have high bio availability of protein and they are deliberately kept out of the mid day meal scheme,leading to high levels of malnutrition among children. Veganism should remain the hobby for rich bored people, it'll be a source of great comedy for a while.