[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I would not engage in another meaning less debate

Highly appreciated.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Please quote credible scientific studies which prove that plants have brain and they have a central nervous system.

Again brain and central nervous system. But thats fine.

There are studies to prove plant have shown consciousness way beyond what we tend to equate them with, but going through that again will only end up in circles - since you draw your line of the idea of a human conscious at the presence of a brain and nervous system, whereas I was mentioning all the acts of intelligence like sharing, reacting, communicating etc that constitutes to a conscious living - whose workings are yet to be fully understood by science.

Its the difference between calling everything with a brain as conscious v/s calling everything that seems to be using it so. Not really expecting you to agree on this viewpoint as well.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

If you are really serious about animal welfare and the physical and mental trauma factory farming causes to animals, please let us know how do you feel about it and what do you want to do about it?

Wasn't it clear in my earlier post - I'm careful to have only moderate quantities in my requirememts and take special care not to waste anything more.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Ethical way for everyone to enjoy meat. Vegans can live without meat or any other animal product if it meant that someone sentient had to suffer for it.

Can't believe you are still asking this question after all the points that have already been put forward. So its a meat for vegans who have already given up on meat but not for meat eaters who inspite of knowing havent? Condescending much?

Lol no. Calm down buddy.

Question is legitimate. You (Vegan community) claim that the entire reason for not having meat is because of the concern for animal welfare. Personally you keep repeating about brain and central nervous system.

Now they are developing meat, cultured in labs, without any of these. No brains, no nerves - just meat tissues getting multiplied - just like any life would do - like plants. If you see the reports - it was welcomed by the vegan community and was served along with a course of vegan delicacies.

Its the result of the pushing the vegan agenda down the throat of others. So why does it again create a moral dilemma? If so - why?

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Veganism has been terrific in providing material for some great comedy on YouTube,mainly through some insane hyperbole about farming practices.

The activists and their anthropomorphism with respect to animals, their willingness to attack people working in farms and restaurants, is proof of their virtue signalling elitism.Vegan activists here have no qualms justifying lynch mobs murdering cattle traders, a common theme I've found in social media.

Saving animals by not eating meat is like conserving wheat by not eating bread. The animals would be culled as their upkeep becomes unaffordable. This trend of pushing veganism has been terrible for the economically weaker sections. Eggs have high bio availability of protein and they are deliberately kept out of the mid day meal scheme,leading to high levels of malnutrition among children. Veganism should remain the hobby for rich bored people, it'll be a source of great comedy for a while.

If videos of animal abuse and suffering is comedy for you then there is not much to say to you about compassion and animal rights.

Conserving wheat by not eating bread does actually make sense, that is how it works with most resources. Not sure what point you were trying to make.

I am not really sure who in your opinion is pushing veganism. Is it people on this thread? People in India? The government? It will be helpful to know who it is you're talking about. I also don't know who it is that is keeping eggs out of the mid-day meal scheme, it might be best to take it up with them. As far as protein is concerned, it is just as easy to get it from pulses and grains as it is from eggs and meat with the added benefit that it is easier to store and no animals are suffering for it.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Vegan activists here have no qualms justifying lynch mobs murdering cattle traders, a common theme I've found in social media.

I think this is getting political now.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by sjain2054

There are always super foods and there are always mediocre foods.

I completely disregard that theory.

From a Jain point of view, Onions and Potatoes are avoided because they are grown underground!

From a general point of view, the foods i mentioned are negative pranic foods! (Google it)
Avoid them over a period of 3 weeks, you will notice a difference in your energy levels etc. Me, a regular non veg eater of all kinds since forever, experimented with these diet changes and the difference was noticeable. Therefore, I stick to this diet as much as possible and I am not finicky about it..If i am travelling or going somewhere where I cannot avoid it, i'll eat anything and everything!

I mentioned green chilli..not chilli pepper!

I can't even imagine giving up Onions.
They are the most important of almost everything I cook.

Maybe some day when I am older and much wiser, will try.

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

It's not about the butcher, it's about the consumer and what cuts of meat are in demand. As a person you might be an efficient butcher, in a commercial setting only 43% of the animal is eaten - https://www.oda.state.ok.us/food/fs-cowweight.pdf

Just ear and hooves? What about teeth, bones, fur, skin, innards (you might eat some but not everything), blood and other bodily fluids? How much is all of that as a percentage of the animal weight? Is it a waste of valuable resources?

No part of the animal goes waste.

Teeth are never removed from the head. The hair on the head is cauterized using fire and them cooked into some amazing soup.
Bones are an integral part of cooking. The western side will make it into stock. Some part goes into the making of Gelatin.
No one except the most hopeless cooks will make a mutton dish without bones.
Blood is one thing I don't eat because of religious reasons. But some people do consume it. My local butcher actually collects it and sells it.
Innards are a delicacy. Its eaten on a regular basis and is also available in restaurants in most cities. You just need to know where to go.

About weight of the Animal, I generally weigh and buy live chicken.
A chicken that weighs about 2200 grams will yield abut 1700 grams of meat and bones. The only part being left out being the feet, head, feathers and blood. Also the stomach contents will be discarded but not the organs. The feet are not wasted. There are some people who buy it from the chicken shop and us it in curry.

For large bovines, you can see this link.

So, to summarize: A 1200 steer, ½ inch fat, average muscling, yields a 750 pound carcass. The 750 pound carcass yields approximately:

490 pounds boneless trimmed beef
150 pounds fat trim
110 pounds bone
A specific example of how the 490 pounds of boneless, trimmed beef could break out includes:

185 pounds lean trim, or ground beef
85 pounds round roasts and steaks
90 pounds chuck roasts and steaks
80 pounds rib and loin steaks
50 pounds other cuts (brisket, flank, short ribs, skirt steak)

India is one of the largest exporters of beef and the past 3-4 years have seen very good growth in this sector.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

If videos of animal abuse and suffering is comedy for you.. animal rights.

Conserving wheat by not eating bread does actually make sense,... rying to make.

.. with the added benefit that it is easier to store and no animals are suffering for it.

The videos aren't about animal suffering they're about the insufferable bores, the pompous activists who are so full of themselves, their air of superiority and holier than thou posturing.

Conserving wheat? What are you on about?

This is exactly what is wrong with your position, it's not easy to get protein from any other source like it is from eggs. Bio availability is 74%, far ahead of any other alternative, you obviously don't care about malnutrition among underprivileged kids, but chickens laying eggs break your heart. Pulses are a luxury for the beneficiaries of mid day meals, people come ahead of any animal for me, that's the fundamental point we don't agree with.

Originally Posted by Guna

I think this is getting political now.

Not really, I was talking about social media, politics can't be used to excuse amoral behavior.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by bblost

A chicken that weighs about 2200 grams will yield abut 1700 grams of meat and bones.

For large bovines, you can see this link.



India is one of the largest exporters of beef and the past 3-4 years have seen very good growth in this sector.

So from your figures, with the chicken we lose out on 22.7% and with the steer it's 37.5%. Coming back to the point I was making to begin with, it is more efficient for humans to eat plant-based food than to feed that to an animal and then eat the animal. This is important when we are facing hunger in the world and a shortage of food.

[bblost]

There is no shortage of food!

Really. There is none.

What we suffer from is endemic wastage of food. Both animal and especially plant based.

This is not just in countries like India but around the world.


https://thecsrjournal.in/food-wastag...rious-concern/

[ajmat]

Time for a break. This is a car forum so lets please everyone!

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The videos aren't about animal suffering they're about the insufferable bores, the pompous activists who are so full of themselves, their air of superiority and holier than thou posturing.

Conserving wheat? What are you on about?

This is exactly what is wrong with your position, it's not easy to get protein from any other source like it is from eggs. Bio availability is 74%, far ahead of any other alternative, you obviously don't care about malnutrition among underprivileged kids, but chickens laying eggs break your heart. Pulses are a luxury for the beneficiaries of mid day meals, people come ahead of any animal for me, that's the fundamental point we don't agree with.

That is unfortunately how it is, some people see the suffering of the animals and a reason for change while some see ' insufferable bores, the pompous activists who are so full of themselves, their air of superiority and holier than thou posturing' because it challenges their belief-system.

The fundamental point we do not agree with is that animals do not need to suffer in order for humans to not be malnourished. In fact lets do a simple math exercise. How many calories do you need to feed a chicken for it to produce an egg? Don't forget that it also takes resources to rear a chicken to reach egg-laying age. Now compare that to how many calories you get out of the egg. Newsflash!! There will always be a nett loss because the chicken is not going to synthesize protein out of thin air (even with water and sunlight which many chickens don't get).

I also don't understand how pulses and legumes are more expensive than an egg, please enlighten us. Being vegetarian/vegan is way cheaper as vegetables, grains and pulses are cheaper than meat Kg for Kg, Calorie for Calorie, nutritional value for nutritional value even after factoring for bio-availability.

The conserving wheat thing was your post #181, I am still a bit confused about what you were trying to say

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Saving animals by not eating meat is like conserving wheat by not eating bread.

Originally Posted by ajmat

Time for a break. This is a car forum so lets please everyone!

Attachment 1801805

I have actually seen something similar in real life. It was a Nissan Leaf in a lay-by. The owner said that is just how it goes on long journeys. EVs are brilliant for urban-driving though.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

The government? It will be helpful to know who it is you're talking about.

Let's not discuss that topic as its impossible to have a healthy discussion without involving politics or religion - both of which are beyond the scope of the forum.

PS - Request for both parties, I'm just qouting you as its the most relevant.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Let's not discuss that topic as its impossible not to have a healthy discussion without involving politics or religion - both of which are beyond the scope of the forum.

PS - Request for both parties, I'm just qouting you as its the most relevant.

No problem. I did not mean to bring politics or religion into the discussion. I was just curious about the identity of the Villainous Vegan Mastermind.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Eggs have high bio availability of protein and they are deliberately kept out of the mid day meal scheme,leading to high levels of malnutrition among children.

[HydroFuel]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

Coming back to the point I was making to begin with, it is more efficient for humans to eat plant-based food than to feed that to an animal and then eat the animal. This is important when we are facing hunger in the world and a shortage of food.

That is true if the animals and todays human eat the same plants but IMO that is not true.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by HydroFuel

That is true if the animals and todays human eat the same plants but IMO that is not true.

All chicken and pigs are fed grain and other food that humans could otherwise eat.

Cows in large factory farms are also fed on grain to fatten them up (in the US mostly corn and soy).

We will have to look at a lot of different reports, but from the little that I do know a large amount of food that could otherwise be directly consumed by humans is used as feed by the meat industry.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

If videos of animal abuse and suffering is comedy for you then there is not much to say to you about compassion and animal rights.

It is very normal for us to care for the well being of what we consider food, and be hostile to anything that can take that food away from us.

Consider this. I have a raised bed vegetable garden growing tomatoes, egg plant, basil, mint, bell peppers and such. When rabbits, grasshoppers and pests attack my food. I consider it to be very natural for me to take steps to protect my crop. I have sprayed pesticides, insecticides, neem oil, soapy fluids, and I have also squished the grass hoppers with vengeance.

In modern farming, the act of spraying pesticides, insecticides to kill billions of bugs(and birds that eat these poisoned pests) cannot be without any suffering. These pests are very rightful in wanting to eat what is food for them. Is it moral for us to spray poison on these bugs eating their lunch?

On those lines, is it moral for us to consume antibiotics to kill billions of organisms that spend their lives helping us. Why cant we only kill the harmful bacteria. Till we have something like that, we should stop taking general antibiotics.

We cannot be selective about suffering. No living thing will enjoy being killed. Grains are not grown in vacuum without any suffering.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

It is very normal for us to care for the well being of what we consider food, and be hostile to anything that can take that food away from us.
.
.
.

We cannot be selective about suffering. No living thing will enjoy being killed. Grains are not grown in vacuum without any suffering.

I am sorry, but the point you are trying to make eludes me. What does my response to someone who found videos of animals suffering funny have anything to do with what you just said about pesticides and antibiotics?