[JohnyBoy]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

...
3. Every mother's (female mammal's) body produces milk for its own offspring. Is it fair and just for us to snatch / forcefully take that milk for our own use?
...

Every tree/plant produces fruits (or seeds) for its own reproduction. is it fair for us to take it away for our own use?

[Touringlawyer]

Originally Posted by am1m

So it would be inaccurate to blanket-classify the consumption of diary as unnatural for all humans.

Just addressing the 'diary not being a natural source of food' aspect. I think that's false.

Hi am1m,

Just sharing my thoughts on the quoted statements. Everything I say here is only for the purpose of discussion, not to win an argument.

Dictionary meaning of Natural is "Existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind." (Source: Oxford Dictionary). The point being, even if certain human populations on earth would have been involved in cattle-rearing for thousands of years, that does not make it natural or justifiable just because humans have been doing that for centuries.

Let me ask myself this - Do habits / beliefs / faiths justify anything, just because they have been practised long enough. For eg: For thousands of years, women have been subjugated as a practice in almost all human societies across the globe; does that make that practice justifiable or natural? Take a few other examples: Female Genital Mutilation have been practised for centuries in some societies. Does that make it natural or justifiable only because humans have done it for years? There can be many many examples of what humans do and have done for thousands of years which can never be justified or called natural only because humans have done it for so long.

Coming back to the point in issue, I say consumption of animal milk by humans is un-natural because "Without human intervention, a cow's milk would be had by a calf, a horse's milk would be had by a foal, a goat's milk would be had by a baby goat, so on and so forth.

Again, these are the questions and thoughts I posed to myself and debated for long before going Vegan. I acknowledge that I was a meat eater once and have happily consumed dairy ever since birth. I stopped doing it because my self-realization was that I must not do anything for my pleasure or desire that causes pain to a sentient being.

Originally Posted by JohnyBoy

Every tree/plant produces fruits (or seeds) for its own reproduction. is it fair for us to take it away for our own use?

Hi Johnyboy,

Two distinctions that come to my mind:

1. In the case of any animal (humans included), a mother's body reproduces and as a consequence of that, produces a baby, and as a consequence to that, the mother's body produces milk to rear that baby.

It is my understanding that this is very dissimilar to the example you gave. A plant is not producing milk for its baby.

2. More importantly, Plants are not sentient beings. To me, this is the KEY difference. Plants do not suffer pain. They do not feel or suffer emotions. Observe any mother animal (humans included) with its offspring, and the emotion and bonding the mother animal shares with its off-spring.

My perception is that Plants do not undergo any suffering of the kind animals undergo, be it emotional suffering or be it physical pain. Hence, the distinction.

Again, these are my thoughts to justify what I do. Please do what you think is the right thing to do, as anyone must always do.

[lazy]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

Hi Johnyboy,

Two distinctions that come to my mind:

1. In the case of any animal (humans included), a mother's body reproduces and as a consequence of that, produces a baby, and as a consequence to that, the mother's body produces milk to rear that baby.

It is my understanding that this is very dissimilar to the example you gave. A plant is not producing milk for its baby.

2. More importantly, Plants are not sentient beings. To me, this is the KEY difference. Plants do not suffer pain. They do not feel or suffer emotions. Observe any mother animal (humans included) with its offspring, and the emotion and bonding the mother animal shares with its off-spring.

My perception is that Plants do not undergo any suffering of the kind animals undergo, be it emotional suffering or be it physical pain. Hence, the distinction.

Again, these are my thoughts to justify what I do. Please do what you think is the right thing to do, as anyone must always do.

And now wait for someone here to share some links that show plants also suffer pain to counter your point.

Fact is, going vegan is a very personal call and no amount of external convincing can help. If you go back a few pages you'll find a few messages where I attempt to explain why going Vegan is better. But soon I realized that convincing is not my core competence.

Back to the point.
I have been trying to go vegan since early 2018, and am still at it.
Have left dairy in all forms 100% since mid last year.
Meat/chicken/fish almost eliminated, but have occasionally succumbed to the temptation. Have been an almost daily nonveg eater since decades, so I am happy with my progress so far.

My family are aghast at this change, there are arguments esp. with parents and siblings about this. But I know what is right.

All knowledge is out there, for the one who seeks. There is no need to convince anyone. Save your energy !!

cheers
lazy

[JohnyBoy]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

...

Coming back to the point in issue, I say consumption of animal milk by humans is un-natural because "Without human intervention, a cow's milk would be had by a calf, a horse's milk would be had by a foal, a goat's milk would be had by a baby goat, so on and so forth.

Without human intervention, the coconut falling from the tree could become a new coconut tree.

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

..

Just sharing my thoughts on the quoted statements. Everything I say here is only for the purpose of discussion, not to win an argument.
...

I hope you noticed the smiley at the end of my earlier message. I am just putting across a different view. Not to argue.

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

..
2. More importantly, Plants are not sentient beings. To me, this is the KEY difference. Plants do not suffer pain. They do not feel or suffer emotions. Observe any mother animal (humans included) with its offspring, and the emotion and bonding the mother animal shares with its off-spring.

My perception is that Plants do not undergo any suffering of the kind animals undergo, be it emotional suffering or be it physical pain. Hence, the distinction.

..

Originally Posted by lazy

And now wait for someone here to share some links that show plants also suffer pain to counter your point.

..

haha.
There are researches which show plants respond to music and their growth can be affected by the care given.
Also, may be with today's technology we have not yet discovered emotions in plants. May be tomorrow, we may.

Originally Posted by lazy

...
Fact is, going vegan is a very personal call and no amount of external convincing can help.
..
There is no need to convince anyone. Save your energy !!

Exactly.
I am a vegetarian. By choice, not because of religion or vegan funda. I don't drink milk also, I don't like the taste.



As we are talking about food, here is a question. All of our food comes from animals or plants. Can anyone name any food item which doesn't come from plants or animals? My 10 year old niece asked me this and I couldn't answer. She gave me 2 answers.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by JohnyBoy

Can anyone name any food item which doesn't come from plants or animals? My 10 year old niece asked me this and I couldn't answer. She gave me 2 answers.

Water and salt? Can't think of anything else.

With regards to plants vs animals being killed for food, for me the fact that plants do not have brains and central nervous systems and therefore do not feel pain or have emotions the way we and other animals do.

[JohnyBoy]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

Water and salt? Can't think of anything else.

..

Yes. When she asked me I couldn't think of any.

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

Drawing from what you say, may I request you to think and ponder over certain further questions

I can answer the questions either logically or from the heart. I will do the latter.

1. Is there a "medical necessity" to consume milk?

For a middle class, salary-dependant, savings conscious, willing vegetarian in his 30s, what else do you suggest?

2. Humans stop consuming milk from their mother's body at about 1-2 years of age (on the higher side I think), which is the time around which mother's body stops producing milk. If nature and evolution made it naturally that way, isn't that indicative of the fact that our need for milk is actually limited for the initial 1-2 years of our life?

There is truth in your statement. But are we really living as nature intended us to? Did nature actually ever intend something for us? How do we ascertain that?

3. Every mother's (female mammal's) body produces milk for its own offspring. Is it fair and just for us to snatch / forcefully take that milk for our own use?

True again. However, one of the few palatal luxuries I crave for occasionally is sweetened cheese (Ginnu/ಗಿಣ್ಣು in Kannada) made out of Colostrum. So, I am being doubly cruel to the calves and ergo guilty as charged!

I do not intend to preach, but these are the questions I asked myself and have since stopped consuming milk. Just sharing thoughts, to each his own

Thanks for making me think. But until I find a viable solution to my question in the beginning of this post, I will keep on my tryst with milk, curds, buttermilk and ghee.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

It is being predicted that lab grown cell based meat will become very mainstream in 2019, with big companies like McDonald's etc showing real interest in this space.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2...mental-impact/

https://www.khmertimeskh.com/5056696...ab-grown-meat/

One of the impacts of the Vegan movement! IMO - In a decade, meat production will shift people from rearing animals for a living to the big MNCs having huge labs for production of cell based meat chunks, and real meat will be sidelined by marketing and legislations to only the poor sections of the society till they finally go extinct along with the chicken!

[V.Narayan]

A genuine question to those in the know - Q. What proof do we have to prove the human stomach is not engineered for milk consumption. Or that the human physiology was not designed for milk consumption. Thanks.

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

Hi am1m,



Coming back to the point in issue, I say consumption of animal milk by humans is un-natural because "Without human intervention, a cow's milk would be had by a calf, a horse's milk would be had by a foal, a goat's milk would be had by a baby goat, so on and so forth.

Well without human intervention you would not even have the wheat with which your rotis are made or the rice that you eat your daal with. If left to nature, your farmlands will be forests. So this argument does not hold good.

Wether we agree or not, human intervention is there and almost all that we do is not natural in the true sense. We will have to go back to the times of Stone age and start hunting gathering all over again (oops that won't be vegan but!!).

The point I want to stress is, there is a line that people want to draw. And that is personal. Preaching ones morality over others, just misses the point in my opinion.

I hope instead of preaching each other about the merits and morality of going Vegan/vegetarian, this thread could be a source of recipes and tips for people who want to try it!!

[digitalnirvana]

Wading into the discussion with a slightly different, and middle of the road perspective of being a "Reducetarian" aka someone who is not a full time vegetarian or vegan, but who is simply eating less meat.

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I would think it is worth a watch.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GEA3Y_9axOA

[lazy]

Originally Posted by vibbs

The point I want to stress is, there is a line that people want to draw. And that is personal. Preaching ones morality over others, just misses the point in my opinion.

I hope instead of preaching each other about the merits and morality of going Vegan/vegetarian, this thread could be a source of recipes and tips for people who want to try it!!

vibbs

That is quite simple to draw, really.
-------Don't consume animals and animal derived food--------

If one can be more careful, one can try not killing insects/ants/mosquitoes as well but an excellent start is to not kill sentient beings.
It is really simple to differentiate between a pig/cow/chicken and an earthworm (who will get killed while growing vegetables or wheat).

Didn't mean to stretch a point, but if the line is stopping you from turning vegan, I took the risk.

cheers
lazy

[Touringlawyer]

Originally Posted by JohnyBoy

Without human intervention, the coconut falling from the tree could become a new coconut tree.

Yes, the coconut might become a new coconut tree, but the distinction here is that the human intervention in stopping that coconut from becoming a coconut tree does not cause physical or emotional pain to anyone.

Originally Posted by JohnyBoy

There are researches which show plants respond to music and their growth can be affected by the care given.
Also, may be with today's technology we have not yet discovered emotions in plants. May be tomorrow, we may.

Yes, but researches also establish that because plants do not have a central nervous system, they do not suffer pain. They do not have a brain, so there is no emotional trauma as well. We base our actions on what we know today and not on what we do not know.

Originally Posted by dailydriver

For a middle class, salary-dependant, savings conscious, willing vegetarian in his 30s, what else do you suggest?

What we were discussing here is "necessity"? Let me explain myself: Need is something you cannot live without. Say water or air, if we were to not consume water or air, we would die. So that is a need. We cannot exist without them. Same cannot be true about animal milk. Nothing would happen to you if you were to stop consuming milk. I have heard non-vegetarians say meat is a need for them. But then, is it? Can anyone say he or she will die if they do not eat meat? I will rest my point there.

I do agree about the non-availability of cheaper alternatives to cow milk. But my point here simply is about the ethics of it. Let me take an example: There are certain tribes in India where women have been given for prostitution for generations as a custom / tradition and the whole family survives on that income. That may be the most easily available income that they have become used to, but is it fair or ethical for the people to keep pushing the women to prostitution just because there is no other easier alternative?

Originally Posted by dailydriver

There is truth in your statement. But are we really living as nature intended us to? Did nature actually ever intend something for us? How do we ascertain that?

That will need a separate larger debate on human lifestyle. I am sure all of us are aware of the destruction that mankind has caused to life on earth by its lifestyle and methods. As for this specific issue, I took the step to go vegan, because I realised I was causing pain to someone for my pleasure. Our use of automobiles in a way is also not what nature intended for us (this is my assumption as automobiles are human creation), but I can live with that as it does not directly affect / cause pain to any creature that can feel pain.

The whole point is this, we humans do a lot of things in our daily life just because they have been passed on to us, generation after generation, without any critical thought / questioning going into it. But that defeats the whole purpose of us being humans, who are capable of thinking / questioning / analysing. Why should we become slave of an act (the act of drinking / consuming milk in the present case) only because several generations have done it before us.

Originally Posted by dailydriver

True again. However, one of the few palatal luxuries I crave for occasionally is sweetened cheese (Ginnu/ಗಿಣ್ಣು in Kannada) made out of Colostrum. So, I am being doubly cruel to the calves and ergo guilty as charged!

Thanks for making me think. But until I find a viable solution to my question in the beginning of this post, I will keep on my tryst with milk, curds, buttermilk and ghee.

Sure, to each his own realisation. We are just discussing.

Originally Posted by vibbs

Well without human intervention you would not even have the wheat with which your rotis are made or the rice that you eat your daal with. If left to nature, your farmlands will be forests. So this argument does not hold good.

Wether we agree or not, human intervention is there and almost all that we do is not natural in the true sense. We will have to go back to the times of Stone age and start hunting gathering all over again (oops that won't be vegan but!!).

There are multiple arguments being made here. In the example you give, I fully agree, that consumption of wheat at the scale we humans do is the result of human intervention. But the difference here being, our wheat consumption does not involve depriving a calf of its mother's milk; our wheat consumption does not involve killing the male calf, so that the milk that the calf would consume could be snatched by us humans. In short, our wheat consumption does not directly (or perhaps indirectly as well) does not cause physical or emotional pain to a sentient being.

Originally Posted by vibbs

The point I want to stress is, there is a line that people want to draw. And that is personal. Preaching ones morality over others, just misses the point in my opinion.

I hope instead of preaching each other about the merits and morality of going Vegan/vegetarian, this thread could be a source of recipes and tips for people who want to try it!!

Firstly, we are just sharing and discussing views and opinions, and I do not think there should be any problem with that.

Secondly, morality is personal, but ethics and justice are not. Let me give an example to elaborate: Marital Rape is not a criminal offence in India. For a large part of our population, it may also be absolutely moral. But is it ethical or just for any man to commit rape on his wife? Hence, legality and morality cannot always be defense to everything we do. Slavery, White supremacy, Criminalisation of Homosexuality etc. have been perfectly legal and for some may still be moral, but they were never ethical or just. I have nothing more to add. Till the time there is no law stopping anyone from killing animals for leather, wool, food, milk etc., humans will continue to do so for their own desire and benefit. If you do feel you are doing the ethical and just / right thing, please continue to do so.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

I say consumption of animal milk by humans is un-natural because "Without human intervention, a cow's milk would be had by a calf, a horse's milk would be had by a foal, a goat's milk would be had by a baby goat, so on and so forth.

Without humans intervention, the modern domesticated cows wouldn't exist. Cows were created by humans over thousands years by selective breeding. Humans created the modern cows for milk/meat/leather. Humans don't mess with wild cows (Gaur), that populate the forests of Asia. If everybody turns vegan, cows will go extinct in 20-30 years. Only wild cows will remain.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A genuine question to those in the know - Q. What proof do we have to prove the human stomach is not engineered for milk consumption. Or that the human physiology was not designed for milk consumption. Thanks.

Simple, humans (let alone their stomach) are result of natural selection. By the proven evolutionary science we know that. We are neither designed nor engineered.

Humans have evolved to eat/drink whatever they eat/drink now. We can't design humans, yet. So when somebody starts saying human stomach was designed for... you can pretty much discard whatever that follows. It doesn't matter whether they are pro-meat or pro-veg. It is just mythology.

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

We are just discussing

Been a vegetarian for 25 years now. I like being that. But whenever someone asks me why I don't consume meat, I simply smile and say that its just a personal preference. I can go at length graphically describing the actual reasons; but I take care not to. I don't want to downplay their choices, or to tell them something that will make their mealtimes hard and melancholic.

The purpose of the thread will perhaps be better served if we dwell more on the benefits of veganism than on the ethics of it. The last two pages have deconstructed food choices a bit too much (I too have been guilty here).