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Originally Posted by bblost Edit: Hotdogs are made by feeding in live chicken into a machine? I am sorry. But have you ever seen the amount of feathers a chicken has? |
I wouldn't make a statement without having seen the proof of it. I will pull out the exact video and share it.
Meanwhile, please do watch the videos which show the reality of the farming industry including dairy, chicken, cows, pigs etc. Please do tell me, which part of what happens in the videos is ethical or just. There are innumerable videos like these on the internet. I have just pulled out some.
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Originally Posted by hdus001 Well a lot of insects, animals, bugs and birds do get directly impacted by farming, probably far more in number than those calves. Many sentient beings that we consider pests and hence kill with pesticides have just as much a right to live as other animals. Also a bit of googling might dispel the "does not involve killing the male calf" in the dairy industry. |
Will share the exact video. And the video I have seen is from Indian Dairies, so not even of a foreign country.
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Originally Posted by dailydriver There comes the tipping point!
You have, in your zealousness to put forward a noble cause like veganism, gone overboard and brought in issues that are too far fetched to be associated with this discussion. I could counter them with similar, stronger arguments, but as I have maintained earlier, I do not want to spoil anyone's experience of eating peacefully. So, I will stop this inane debate. |
Well, you have just stated that the example is far fetched without giving any reasoning for the same.
Let me share the similarities in both the situations: Both child and the animal suffer physical pain and emotional trauma. More importantly, both are helpless. They are not in a position to resist and fight back. Just because the sufferer in one case is a human child doesn't make it any different or more painful than the main suffered by an animal.
Please do watch the videos I have shared above and state what part of it is ethical and just.
Again saying, simply because someone made a choice, even if that be a choice of food, doesn't make it right only because it is someone's choice.
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Originally Posted by fiestarry Today's urban dwellers are too far removed from the grisly reality of animal and poultry breeding, the cruel treatment of those beings and their brutal slaughter......His anger and blood lust is quenched temporarily when he bites into the flesh of the sad bird or animal that stood no chance to represent its own cause. And the meat industry won't give them a chance ever, will they.? |
Very very well said.
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Originally Posted by roy_libran Disclaimer - I am an unapologetic meat eater, who has had the experience of killing, dressing, chopping, cooking and eating live animals, and am perfectly at ease with the entire idea even now. But, I can see why it may not work for everyone. |
The discussion here is about the ethics and justness of the whole farming industry. A lot has already been said about it, so won't repeat it. Please do watch the videos shared and point out what part of it is ethical, fair and just. But since you talk about being unapologetic, let me also point out that almost all struggles for rights of all kinds, fought by the oppressed and for the oppressed, are fought against oppressers who have all been totally unapologetic about the violations they did. For example: Whites that kept blacks as slaves; Indian Patriarchical system where women were forced to commit sati; there are really innumerable examples.
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan Vegans must understand they do not have a monopoly over 'The Truth'. We all are simultaneously knowledgeable and blind in equal measure.
In my home my wife, mother & I are egg-veg, 2 of the kids eat every thing that walks & flies, my aunt is a vegan (without knowing there is a term for it).... and the youngest has turned vegan because she wants to experiment.
What we need on this thread is toleranceatarianism. Gosh I might have just invented a new word :-) |
No one is claiming a monopoly over the truth. We are all simultaneously learning. At least I am. However, I am still waiting for a justifiable rationale explanation about this "Right to eat by whatever choice one makes". If power justifies the said supposed Right, please do ponder over a question: "Do I have the right to eat a neighbour's human child, only because I have the power to do it, and because that is a choice I want to make?" (Please don't go into the legality of it).
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Originally Posted by Samurai I don't need to watch PETA propaganda videos.
What you are is a victim of PETA video propaganda. You have been fed a bunch of lies, and literally brainwashed into calling your fellow humans child rapists. I suggest you seriously think how these PETA videos have twisted your thought process to this extent. I swear.... Those of us who visit butcher shops actually see these meat grinding machines. I can't even imagine how a live animal can be fed into it. I think they fed a live chicken into a wood chipper machine, and showed it to the naive PETA audience as the truth. So the actual people who did that are PETA filmmakers. |
Please do watch the videos shares above. They actually do show live chickens being thrown into a grinding machine. Please do care to mention which of those are PETA videos and which part of those videos seem ethical, fair and just to you. Also, since you talk about free range chickens, are you saying all the chicken and meat produced and consumed in India and elsewhere is free range?
As to calling fellow humans child rapists, I have already explained in my earlier post and also in this post above about the similarities in the two situations. Please do care to counter the point with logical and reason.
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Originally Posted by Samurai No. You are talking fantasy. |
You don't give any reason. Haven't so many other species survived without messing with nature. If so many other species have survived without messing with nature, I am sure humans as well can.
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Originally Posted by dark.knight Also there is nothing wrong in claiming to be an animal lover if you like cats or dogs. It has to begin somewhere. |
Appreciate and understand that bit. But since you have already participated in the discussion and are now part of it, please do share your thoughts on the proposition: "Is a choice made by a human justified, merely because it relates to issues like food and faith?" My counter question to that would be: "What if I like the taste of human flesh and have the resources to kill and procure it, would that be justified, only because I made that choice?"
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Originally Posted by kiku007 Could you please check if they fed a live cow for beef sausage and a live pig for pork sausage?
Very interesting story this is. |
Please do watch the videos shared above and state what part of it is ethical, fair and just. Clearly, you have nothing of sense to contribute and hence the false humor you have sought to bring in.
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Originally Posted by GeneralJazz I hope you are not serious! The very fact that you and I have survived so far is proof that we are messing with nature. If we weren't, we probable would have been eaten as a baby, died due to disease/parasites, killed for a mate, killed by a mate, died from starvation and so on. There are n number of ways to die in the wild. The fact that we have eliminated many of them are proof that we are messing with nature. |
A lot of species have survived for longer periods of time (than humans) on earth without messing with nature, so I am serious when I say we can survive without messing with nature.
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Originally Posted by am1m You said it man! Sadly, for a lot of people veganism becomes like a religion and like any religion often becomes illogical, preachy and begins to turn off the very people who might be seriously considering a logical shift. Instead of considering the science, the arguments go into emotional hyperbole, exactly like this one seems to have. |
I have already explained above the rationale to for the analogy I gave. Please do care to explain what is wrong in it.
And no, Veganism has not become a religion to me. [As an aside, on the religion front, I am an athiest] So far as Veganism is concerned, please do watch the videos I have shared above and point out the ethical, fair and just part of the acts shown therein. I am absolutely open to hear one logical argument about what is right in saying that one has a right to choice of food. In fact, to contradict what you said, I can also say that for people who just want to continue doing what they do because its convenient to them, food is like faith and religion to them and they are blinded by it; no logic, reason, fairness and ethics can get between them and their food / faith.
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Originally Posted by avira_tk The only reason I support veganism is because they are comedy gold,my YouTube feed is full of it. The only constant is the urban upper class virtue signalling, anthropomorphism and of course violence against workers in food and dairy industry. I wonder why they don't stop taking antibiotics and vaccination if they are hell bent on nature having its way. |
I am sure you have the same views about women fighting for their rights, sati practised in India, slavery that was practised for centuries, criminalisation of homosexuality etc.
Please do watch the videos and point out what part of the videos seem ethical, fair and just to you.