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Old 16th October 2018, 13:01   #46
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

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Came across this article on Scroll.

BTW, the writer's name is familiar to me. He had once contacted me over email 25 years ago, while researching some story. Internet then was a small world. I remembered his name only because of his unique surname, his father was a popular police commissioner of Bangalore in the 80s.
They are clients of my wife and we have common friends. My wife is also an ex-journalist. She met up with some respected journalists recently and they mentioned that the stories that came out of working for Asian Age were numerous and true.
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Old 16th October 2018, 17:40   #47
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If you are worried about the #MeToo movement then it may help you to read this.

It always helps to look at hard data. Gives a clearer picture than panic stricken initial reactions. Allow me to share my experience on the ground. I hope the data will be of use to each reader to form his/her own view. I have served for many years on boards of large companies for 15+years and in several of those cases on the sexual harassment committees [framed under the POSH Act]. Permit me to share, for the benefit of BHPians, what hard data I have seen and adjudicated over. My observations are being shared in all seriousness for the sake of better a understanding amongst men & women who read T-BHP. I do not wish to get into a debate. The number of cases dealt with would be in the ball park of about 50.

Approximately [here I am talking from memory] 60 to 65% of the cases are genuine one-sided mischief where the woman is at the receiving end clear and simple. It takes 3 to 4 rounds of interviews [we don’t call it interrogation] to get to the nub of the matter and take what action is needed under the law. There are grades of response levels here.

20 to 25% of the cases that come up to the committee are consensual relationships gone astray. That can mean many things – (i) Promise of marriage broken; (ii) The physical relationship captured on the cell phone video and then uploaded by the guy onto some site or the other or shared on WA to the complete and devastating detriment of the girl. As a person of a slightly older generation I have been shocked at how many such cases take place; (iii) Girl gets pregnant and boy abandons the relationship. Variation - boy promises marriage, physical intimacy follows, boy borrows large sums of money and starts avoiding girl. This boy borrows money from girl is an oft repeated theme. Of course, there is no documentation but an intention to violate the trust, on part of the male, is usually very clear. The first and the third here are very hard to resolve as they are consensual relations gone sour and a great deal of thought has to be applied from the legal context of harassment.

10% of the cases, or one in ten, are ones where the female is taking undue advantage of the new rules and filing charges which are false. Companies – MNCs/Tech Companies that do a good job of communicating their policies [which is a good thing for the safety of women] to some extent trigger the unscrupulous elements in the female community to risk false complaints especially when they are pulled up for non-performance and slackness at work. Sad but true. They believe the company is weak-kneed and this encourages them. The combined workforce of the companies whose Boards I serve(d) on in is just over 6 figures. So 5 unfair cases over several years from over a lakh of employees. Guys – some of your panic is not justified. I am sure you have your tales to narrate but I thought of sharing data.

The 10% in the third category are the ones who are actually eroding support for the other 90%. The #MeToo movement is a direct result of the fact that normal channels of justice and police support are conspicuous by their absence. Before any of the men on this august forum pipe up answer one question – have you gone to a police station in India to file a case of sexual harassment ever- if you have you will understand how difficult and humiliating and bullying and taunting our police officials are when they see a case like this. The #MeToo movement is a result of muzzling.

Fill a room with 200 randomly picked men and 200 women. Ask the men how many have been falsely accused of sexual mis-behaviour – maybe 1 or 2 or at the most 4 will raise their hands - all I am sure from MNC or Tech firms. Then ask how many women have dealt with sexual harassment or lewd remarks or groping or bullying on the street and I believe well over 90% the women in the room will raise their hands. It is a deeply pervasive problem all women are always aware of and most men either not so much or never at all.

We may want to bear in mind that the issue at hand is not limited to MNCs, big IT firms and banks but the daily working lives of all women all the way to the maid servant, the manual labourer, the clerk in a lala firm and so many more.

Change often starts at the top of the society or economic ladder. Media & Ministers sounds like a good place to start. The genie is out of the bottle. I believe things will swing to one end of the pendulum before we get to a more balanced outlook ten or fifteen years later.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 16th October 2018 at 17:59.
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Old 16th October 2018, 17:55   #48
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
If you are worried about the #MeToo movement then it may help you to read this.

It always helps to look at hard data. Gives a clearer picture than panic stricken initial reactions.
.
.
.
Change often starts at the top of the society or economic ladder. Media & Ministers sounds like a good place to start. The genie is out of the bottle. I believe things will swing to one end of the pendulum before we get to a more balanced outlook ten or fifteen years later.
Crisp, clean, to the point and hits hard.
Well said and wonderfully written !!
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Old 16th October 2018, 19:17   #49
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
If you are worried about the #MeToo movement then it may help you to read this.

It always helps to look at hard data. Gives a clearer picture than panic stricken initial reactions. Allow me to share my experience on the ground. I hope the data will be of use to each reader to form his/her own view. I have served for many years on boards of large companies for 15+years and in several of those cases on the sexual harassment committees [framed under the POSH Act]. Permit me to share, for the benefit of BHPians, what hard data I have seen and adjudicated over. My observations are being shared in all seriousness for the sake of better a understanding amongst men & women who read T-BHP. I do not wish to get into a debate. The number of cases dealt with would be in the ball park of about 50.

Change often starts at the top of the society or economic ladder. Media & Ministers sounds like a good place to start. The genie is out of the bottle. I believe things will swing to one end of the pendulum before we get to a more balanced outlook ten or fifteen years later.
Thank you very much for replying with facts, Narayan! It really gives more perspective to this topic.
While I have never been part of a POSH committee/board, in my last job I was close to an HR Manager, hence got to know about some incidents that happened in our company, and I have to say that I was shocked upon hearing the way that they were handled.
I will not name the company in question here, but I can tell you that things were hushed up through deals with the complainant, which I find highly unethical.

Example: A girl was harassed by a security guard, while they were alone together in the elevator on company premises. She reports it to HR & Leadership.
In order to keep their reputation as a company safe, they ask her not to file any police complaint or report to the media, and offer to hire her husband (who actually lacks the skill to be hired in this company), in exchange for her silence, and she accepts the deal
The guy joins my team, and is given a higher pay than anybody else at his level as well. Does he know about his wife being harassed? I don't know.
The guard of course loses his job, but who's to say that he won't harass someone again? The root cause of the problem has not been fixed.

From a personal standpoint, I come from a large family, and have 6 sisters of my own. There have been many cases where my sisters complained to me about being harassed by men/boys in public, and they couldn't do anything about it, because no one was bothered. I get so angry/frustrated when I hear these kind of stories, but I can't do anything about it, because it never happens when I am with them.

I firmly believe that strict action should be taken against people who are guilty of sexual harassment/assault, and I am in complete support of it. Yes, some people may be incorrectly accused, but that will be very few cases. For the most part, I'm sure a lot of these cases will be genuine, and I don't feel sorry at all for someone who derives pleasure out of such disgusting deeds.

Like Narayan, I'm also not looking for any debates or arguments, I merely wanted to put forth my experiences and viewpoint on this thread.

Cheers
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Old 16th October 2018, 20:29   #50
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
If you are worried about the #MeToo movement then it may help you to read this.

.. is a direct result of the fact that normal channels of justice and police support are conspicuous by their absence. Before any of the men on this august forum pipe up answer one question – have you gone to a police station in India to file a case of sexual harassment ever- if you have you will understand how difficult and humiliating and bullying and taunting our police officials are when they see a case like this. The #MeToo movement is a result of muzzling.
Sir, as always your posts had a very balanced and clear view. Specially the part that normal channels of justice and support in such cases are absent. This is the root cause of women remaining silent even if facing harassment on a daily basis.

I found it very strange that some of our revered members questioned like "why they are coming after such long time period" and "where is the proof". This shows complete lack of understanding of the subject and ground reality.

How can someone who is harassed on closed door or in similar work spaces bring on proof? The issue needs to be seen from a different perspective.

In our company, there is a yearly mandatory training for all on this subject. It clearly mentions that the victim's word will prevail over all else. I think it reflects the situation about how the female gender has been at the receiving end of harassment almost all the time.


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From a personal standpoint, I come from a large family, and have 6 sisters of my own. There have been many cases where my sisters complained to me about being harassed by men/boys in public, and they couldn't do anything about it, because no one was bothered.
Thank you for putting it into words which is somewhat of an everyday nuisance.

Fordday.
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Old 17th October 2018, 19:37   #51
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

MJ Akbar Resigns from Cabinet

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/unio...for-de-1933515

In ~1969 when Golda Meir was the leader of Israel there were a spate of sex crimes against women at a small remote military base . The camp commandant ordered that the women soldiers /staff be kept indoors after 9PM. That is the 'normal' societal thinking. Impose restrictions on the victim especially if they are women. Gold Meir said something to the effect of 'I have not known any women who raped a man. It is the men in the camp who need to be locked in after 8PM'. She was the Prime Minster and that ordered was followed.

I narrate this story so that young men on this forum understand there can be a different world view from the one we are so used to that we think it is both normal & natural.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 17th October 2018 at 19:40.
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Old 17th October 2018, 20:49   #52
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

Huff, Puff, Resign...

That's not meant in any way as party political. It is the way of many politicians and other public figures, everywhere

Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 17th October 2018 at 20:51.
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Old 17th October 2018, 21:49   #53
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Bhanwari Devi - India's original #MeToo. Her fight brought the Vishaka and POSH Laws we have today. Most BHPians may be too young to have read about her when these events unfolded in 1992. Read it now. #MeToo is not about urban and urbane film actresses and journalists alone. It is something that must eventually help the Bhanwari Devi's of our country; it must eventually help your sister to walk on our streets without risk of molestation.

I would urge you to read this article.

https://www.news18.com/news/immersiv...too-woman.html
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Old 17th October 2018, 23:01   #54
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Example: A girl was harassed....offer to hire her husband
Cheers
What a sad and disheartneing anecdote. Why would the girl now not be inspired to use such a threat (real or invented) as a tool for self-advancement?

By extension, when she shares her 'triumph' story with others, they too could be motivated to (mis)use it.

That said, I am totally for a severe punishement for the guilty AFTER an unbiased complete investigation - the guilty accused as well as the guilty indulging in false accusations.

Furthermore, the punishment needs to be severe and public enough so it sets precedence and any potential guilty candidates can consider themselves warned!

I am happy the #MeToo movement has gathered so much momentum.
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Old 19th October 2018, 14:49   #55
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Bhanwari Devi - India's original #MeToo. Her fight brought the Vishaka and POSH Laws we have today. Most BHPians may be too young to have read about her when these events unfolded in 1992. Read it now. #MeToo is not about urban and urbane film actresses and journalists alone. It is something that must eventually help the Bhanwari Devi's of our country; it must eventually help your sister to walk on our streets without risk of molestation.

I would urge you to read this article.

https://www.news18.com/news/immersiv...too-woman.html
Ohh that was a very informative article. Knew about the case but honestly never went in details of the fact. It's rather painful to see that even today in many parts of the rural India, the situation has not improved much as far as rights of women are concerned. I wonder as a society have we done / or are doing enough to work upon core issues, rather than wasting our energy on fighting non issues.
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Old 28th October 2018, 12:07   #56
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This stuff is showing some totally undesirable side effects. I have a first hand incident to share:

My wife had a fall from a staircase while going to a bank. She was struggling to get up. A few men passing by stopped and showed concern. But none of them moved forward and helped her stand on her feet. Men are increasingly getting worried about being victimized as well.

At workplace when you have male and female candidates to choose from, male managers are likely to have at least a slight tilt in preferring male candidates.

I am not saying all the noise is false. But definitely many men are becoming extra cautious. Not necessarily a nice thing.
Came across a Marathi newspaper article that confirms that above is happening indeed as a survey suggests:

http://www.pudhari.news/news/Nationa...ct-with-women/

The article says:
  • About 50% men in cities are becoming extra cautious when talking with women.
  • About 33% men at workplaces are limiting their conversations with lady colleagues with the fear of a wrong meaning being drawn.
  • About 33% men (managers) are reconsidering inclusion of women in their teams.
While the guilty should be punished, an atmosphere of fear and suspicion is not a healthy sign for the society.

Last edited by mayuresh : 28th October 2018 at 12:12.
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Old 29th October 2018, 11:07   #57
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While I had read this thread before, I am posting it reading the title which reads "Women's Safety in India". Why is it that the #MeToo is linked only to women safety? There are men as well who go through such abuse and I guess few people did come out in the open as well. It might not be as much as women or maybe not many men came out in the open but still I feel the title of the thread needs to be unlinked from being woman specific.
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Old 29th October 2018, 11:24   #58
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

This will explain it:

From Twitter.
A group of men and women were asked what steps they take to keep themselves safe.

This is the list they came up with.

Name:  safe.jpeg
Views: 628
Size:  55.0 KB

Personal experience. I cycle to work. Slow and tired.

Times, I have been molested, harassed, groped: ZERO

Last edited by bblost : 29th October 2018 at 11:25.
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Old 29th October 2018, 12:34   #59
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Came across this article on Scroll.

BTW, the writer's name is familiar to me.
I think I have read his articles in the past, but can't remember which publications and subject.

What I fail to grasp is if there's a process of law set up, why is it not being followed?

Also, please don't take this as a justification of his actions because I have no knowledge of what transpired, but if I were named by someone in such a matter, with a footnote that I did do nothing, and if I am staring at the prospect of losing everything I have gained in life, my legal remedy would be a defamation suit, at the very least.

Also I don't understand the reference made to Mr Akbar finding out his residential address. Is it the court notice delivered at home? Or has there been any other incident at his home that's not been reported?

Last edited by honeybee : 29th October 2018 at 12:35.
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Old 29th October 2018, 23:17   #60
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I know that there is some concern about women misusing the Metoo movement, but I have some examples to highlight the severe extent to which women are harassed in India. I have seen these examples myself

1. I was once on a tea break with my colleague. Nearby, a pretty girl is passing-by. This guy starts staring at her, I was like "dude what are you doing, what's that for?". He was unapologetic. I don't remember the exact words he said but he was unapologetic. I felt that he had been rejected in the past and was bitter about it. And he was showing that anger on others by staring at them and making them uncomfortable. This is an educated man working for one of the top MNC now. He recently got married. I wonder if his wife knows he's a misogynist.

2. When women step out, they are subjected to a lot of stares. It's hard for us men to grasp the extent of it because we're not on the receiving end. But I've seen it and it's just upsetting.
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