30th October 2018, 21:48 | #61 | |||
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India Quote:
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What I do have a problem with is, in all the platitudinous virtue-signalling that is happening today.. blindly painting all men as chauvinistic, selfish, a menace to society etc all with a swift stroke of a brush, one fact seems to escape the most in this gender divide - men and women are destined to dance together until they exist. I read a fantastic article on the gender divide and how each gender is programmed subconsciously to act a certain way in order to obtain a life-partner.. a DNA level programming that is so mind-blowing that we'd all feel so cliched when we learn to analyze it. Yes, bad people exist, its the reason why crime is so high, its the reason why robberies happen, why we take so many precautions. Female related crimes do happen, and on a human level these depraved perpetrators of said crimes should be suitably punished and be set as an example seeing which there should be nothing but fear... however that is for the law to crack down upon and process accordingly, even the recent case of a male who committed suicide due to a constant pressure of another woman to have relations with her even though he was married. Times are a-changin in India.. good or bad I do not know, however one can only wish that every man/woman uses their discretion and precaution whilst trying to live as much of a normal life as possible through all the phases of their life. Most of the #MeToo stories are because of a regressive society, a pathetic legal framework and people who are aware of both and fully intend to exploit them. Last edited by dark.knight : 30th October 2018 at 21:57. | |||
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2nd November 2018, 10:14 | #62 | |
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India https://indianexpress.com/article/in...e-bar-5430257/ #MeToo | Day after, Tata Group says: We hear Pandit, opportunity to raise the bar Written by Shalini Nair | New Delhi | Updated: November 2, 2018 Quote:
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2nd November 2018, 12:10 | #63 | |
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2nd November 2018, 12:37 | #64 |
Team-BHP Support | Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India
I find this part odd. According to POSH rules, the MD/CEO cannot be part of the ICC. The ICC president has to be a woman, and then some senior staff as members (can be male), and an external NGO member. The ICC will advice MD/CEO to take action after their investigation. If the MD/CEO ignores the advice, the NGO member can raise hell, unlike the employee members. |
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2nd November 2018, 13:14 | #65 | |
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2nd November 2018, 13:32 | #66 |
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India The India head at a company I was working for was fired on the basis of a complaint made by an intern. Apparently the India head 'suggested' that they travel together to a country and spend a couple of days on holiday there, en route to a business-related conference in another country. So, there are some companies that take this sort of thing very seriously. But alas, there don't seem to be any long-term consequences for such behaviors. The above-mentioned India head is now working as one of the top guys at another company in a different city and his photo is very prominently displayed on that company's website. |
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3rd November 2018, 08:44 | #67 |
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India I worked in Human Resources for a prominent professional services company and while dealing predominantly with women what I've come to understand is that most of the inertia the '#MeToo Agenda' has garnered among women is to the best of it made-up and I'm not referring to reported cases, I'm referring to the cloud of confusion that eventually matures into an official complaint. If I go by most of their standards of determining what abuse/harassment is then I've been abused and harassed all my life and I've been too naive to notice it. Another thing I've observed is that women have a way of discrediting someone they dislike without ever taking a logical stand or giving the other party the benefit of the doubt. I've literally seen people use this as a conversation starter; (Me, Female Colleague, Female Manager) Female Colleague: Have you noticed how XXX stares at our boobs? Female Manager: Is it? I've heard about this but I've not experienced it yet. Female Colleague: (Blows up the Incident, trying to extract pity out of the situation playing the damsel in distress) Me: Have you told XXX that he is making you uncomfortable? Female Colleague: No. Me: You do realize that in retrospect XXX doesn't seem to have caused you any harm or have displayed any intent of doing so, right? Female Colleague: Yes. Me: Then why are you discrediting him like that behind his back? Because from where I see things primal urges are natural and just like you and me XXX would also have them, and if they're making you uncomfortable then the educated thing to do would be to confront him first rather than spread rumors. (At this point the Female Manager sides with my Female Colleague and gangs up on me advising how society works and how the 'Indian' culture is, all the while I was contemplating killing myself as it would've been better than sharing breathing space with these idiots) |
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3rd November 2018, 16:55 | #68 | |
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3rd November 2018, 17:27 | #69 | |
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India Quote:
Also, do you expect employees to solve problem within themselves first before raising the issue? Should the women have asked the other person to stop ogling? If they are not comfortable talking to him, then they shouldn't come to HR, is this what is suggested? It is not necessary for ANY complaint to wait till some harm is caused. 'Preventive action' is necessary and useful in many cases, especially when multiple people experience same symptoms from a lunatic. Protecting an office psycho ogling women just because he hasn't 'done' anything yet is not right. For whatever it is worth, the correct action in this case is to warn to the man (not the complainant) to control his urges and eyes, or else to suffer to consequences. BTW the incidence you have narrated is what women tell in MeToo. If someone's 'Primal Urge' is to ogle at women to the point to make them uncomfortable, then perhaps they don't belong in the world of humans, but only primates. Last edited by ani_meher : 3rd November 2018 at 17:29. | |
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3rd November 2018, 20:06 | #70 |
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India Humoserious aside. A colleague was tall, female and well endowed. Her manager was quite short, but that was not an excuse. One day, I laughed at her "I'm up here" t-shirt. She told me that she wore it specifically for that manager. |
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3rd November 2018, 20:42 | #71 | ||
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India Quote:
Though as experienced as Mr.N is I'd rather form my own opinion of things after witnessing the fact as numbers alone do not do justice when it comes to human metrics, period. Quote:
Have you considered that; 1. XXX could be suffering from strabismus. 2. My Female Colleague could've misinterpreted the whole scenario. 3. My Female Colleague was just trying to start the conversation at the expense of someone else, a practice quite common in the Indian corporate setup. If you widen your perspective you would realize that there are 'N' number of scenarios that have been unconsciously overseen to reach the cliche conclusion that the 'Guy' is at fault for making a 'Girl' feel uncomfortable, which is the result of years of psychological conditioning an individual growing up in a typical Indian household is subjected to. Irrespective of gender say if you do something that makes me uncomfortable do I have the right to discredit you behind your back or convince other less informed individuals to gang up on you? The plain and simple answer is 'NO' The ideal thing for me to do would be to confront you in a civilized manner to make better sense of the situation and then proceed according to situational demands. That is all that I am saying. And if anyone was wondering the actual reason was Option 3 stated above, and it is not a conclusion I've blindly made as the colleague in question later did apologize to me(Still illogical as I was not the affected party here!) and overtime has become a decent friend of mine and after a year of me resigning she still reaches out to me from time to time for non-work related personal matters, no vested interests here as I've been unemployed since as I'm currently working on a complete career shift. Last edited by ashwinprakas : 3rd November 2018 at 20:46. | ||
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3rd November 2018, 20:56 | #72 | |
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India Dear Moderators I am quoting the entire post as the full text is necessary for readers to grasp the points being emphasized and not have to toggle up and down. Please permit it. Quote:
I do not wish to decry or question any part of your narrative. I am assuming it happened exactly as you have written it. You may wish to refer to my post number #47. Allow me to share and lay out my personal and direct experience on such matters. The readers can draw their own conclusions. The statements below are based on around 50 serious full fledged investigations into cases of sexual harassment complaints at large companies whose Boards I have served on since 2002. One of these companies, an MNC, had such a POSH committee back in 2002 a whole decade before it became law.With reference to this case my observations are: 1. I cannot recall a single instance of the 100+ interviews I participated in where a woman referred to her anatomy with the word 'boobs'. Breasts or bosom was the term usually used. Most common in similar cases would be 'staring at me inappropriately all the time'. Women from Indian middle class while dealing with a difficult and potentially humiliating situation do not use such terms while referring to themselves. At least I have not seen in it in my 16 years on such committees 2. The fact that two women came to you together indicates that they had discussed this several times, weighed the consequences, gathered the courage and then approached the HR manager whom they expected would be more enlightened and less medieval. They did the right thing by following the process. 3. Because of the un-empathetic attitude the HR manager displayed they retreated under quiet intimidation and concern that corrective action is hard to get so better keep quiet before this HR manager makes us a laughing stock. When women are rebuffed when following the process they learn that the only route to being heard is through movements like #MeToo. 4. The correct thing to do under the law as well as an HR manager would be to counsel the man concerned. Very sadly this HR manager adopted the oft repeated style from the 19th century to attack the female victim as bullying the weak is easier than taking on a member of the dominant group. This was a lower order case of harassment. If it had been more serious in terms of physical contact or stalking you may want to let the said HR manager know that with this behavior he can be made a co-accused too. | |
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3rd November 2018, 21:16 | #73 | |
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Why all this justification is coming from you and not from the accused? Have you considered the other alternatives too, that the women might be telling diluted truth, or maybe that male colleague is indeed of such character? Also, preferring employees to solve matter themselves rather than coming to HR, isn't one of the tasks of HR precisely this, to avoid employee confrontation? BTW this is getting too personal, so I will leave at this reply. I hope one maintains this stand of understanding why a person stares even when involved are one's mother or sister or wife. | |
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3rd November 2018, 21:23 | #74 | |
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| Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India Quote:
The Female Manager is my manager as well, and me and the Female Colleague are equals and we're all in Human Resources. Both the Manager and Colleague were new to the firm(I've been in the same firm for over 2 years at the time these two joined) and my colleague was trying to build a rapport with the manager and used this as a conversation starter to which I showed my distaste as I happened to be part of the conversation by mere chance as my colleague was the 3rd person to join us as my manager and I were discussing something else at the time. 'Boobs' was the exact word used as this was an informal conversation. And as said by this colleague(my age) and a few of the older female employees, as I do not make a conscious effort to 'validate' women they feel free to or rather tend to be 'themselves' when I'm the only guy around. Fact is I don't care much, be decent, be fair, do what you're paid to do and leave on time to live your life as you see fit. Might not be a nice thing to say but that was said in all honesty. | |
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3rd November 2018, 21:35 | #75 |
Senior - BHPian | Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India At least one thing is clearer - That both the standards of what constitutes sexual harassment and how other people interpret it, also varies greatly with Age, in addition to the usual suspects of background, intelligence (E and I), nationality, religion, race, family, culture etc etc. No offenses to anyone; this is just a generic observation. What's harassment to a 60 year old, isn't necessarily to a 40, and almost certainly not to a 20. Conversely what wasn't harassment at 20, can start seeming like one at 40 and may turn into a certainty by 60. This is why it's almost impossible to arrive at any consensus. Last edited by roy_libran : 3rd November 2018 at 21:46. |
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