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Old 4th November 2018, 05:11   #76
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

Just read this.

"Woman, who accused US judge Brett Kavanaugh of sexual assault, has confessed that she made up her claims because she was 'angry'."

Imagine the agony an honest man & his family had to go through.

Consider this is the context of how the prominent women who lead the #MeToo movement through the mainstream media in India, justify the suffering of innocent men as "collateral damage".

IMHO such people & ofcourse the news media are encouraging misandry. If ever/By the time they're brought to justice, they'll have ruined the social fabric of our society. All for greed.

Funny world this, let's see.

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Old 4th November 2018, 07:39   #77
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I do not wish to decry or question any part of your narrative

2. The fact that two women came to you together indicates that they had discussed this several times, weighed the consequences, gathered the courage and then approached the HR manager

3. Because of the un-empathetic attitude the HR manager displayed they retreated under quiet intimidation
Agree fully with Mr Narayan here. People have the right to be treated as professionals at the workplace, without any verbal, physical or other form of harassment. Prolonged stares is clearly a form of harassment. To my mind, telling someone who complains, “this is part of human nature...” is a shockingly inappropriate response, and to my mind should be a firing offence for someone in HR. Sorry Ashwin, but at least in my book, what you said makes you complicit in harassment.

More generally, I am shocked by the attitude displayed by the majority of members here. Just demonstrates why so many harassers get away with stuff, and women find it so hard to complain. Firstly, “Proof beyond reasonable doubt”, and “Innocent till proven guilty” apply only for criminal cases. In a workplace context, what matters is preponderance of evidence - which is a far easier test to pass. Second, when an accused is in a position of power, moving the accused out of that position is the first step you would take. If a senior purchasing manager was accused of taking bribes to rig bids, you would first move him out or at least ensure that he works under enhanced supervision until he is proven innocent. Both legally and as a matter of sensible management in a company, the same principle should apply in cases of sexual harassment as well.

In India in particular, our popular culture (eg films) fails to draw an appropriate line between wooing someone and sexual harassment. There are several examples of things that clearly would be sexual harassment even in a non workplace context that our films portray as acceptable. Further, the line in a workplace context has to be drawn in an even more conservative fashion. At our firm for example, asking someone for a date more than once is considered over the line behaviour. Discussing one’s sexual exploits in the workplace is also over the line. Planning a trip with colleagues to an adult entertainment establishment is also not acceptable. There would be lots of guys who think, “How is that harassment? I am just trying to woo someone” or “ We are just planning a fun evening out” but the fact is that creates an atmosphere where women find it intimidating - and that is unacceptable today.

I would however give some leeway for incidents that took place 10 or 15 years ago. The fact is that the standards of what is acceptable conduct have changed with time. But if one looks at the “#metoo” allegations, a number of cases are of conduct that should have been unacceptable even when it happened. It’s just that women thought they had to live with it as a price of being in the workplace then, and now realise that is not the case.

Last edited by Hayek : 4th November 2018 at 07:42.
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Old 4th November 2018, 08:21   #78
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

In my book and I speak keeping in view my profession ( a criminal attorney) Twitter and Facebook are not forums where you can initiate sexual harassment allegations.
You head to a police station or a magistrate and file your complaint. Bring in your evidence and take the guilty to the book.There are even remedies if your complaint is not registered.
However, I am not believing you if you come 10 years after your alleged incident and make a post on twitter claiming what happened and get the media and public all riled up. What you end up doing is declare the other party guilty without even leading any evidence.

"We can all say that we're never going to commit a crime , but that doesn't mean you wont be accused ." ~ Steven Avery's Defense Counsel.

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Old 4th November 2018, 09:23   #79
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What kind of evidence can be expected of an event that happened a few years ago or even now when you least expect such kind of a confrontation?

This is downright stupid to ask of. Very rarely is there evidence to someone's misdemeanor. For the simple fact that the perpetrator chooses to move at an optimal point or location or when the victim is at the most vulnerable.

I have heard of many incidents of violation by a senior, or a colleague or a family member, and why a victim chose to remain silent at that time. Or why she was hushed up by others.

People who are asking to file police complaints at the time of the incident don't even know what they are talking about. There are male victims too. I agree. Now, of all the members here, how many can say that they have been accused of misdemeanor? I went through six pages here and there was only one personal incident here where a woman misjudged a member while walking down the street.

I have never worked in a corporate environment but do know quite a few women that are friends and I have the utmost respect for. I have heard confessions from quite a few. In fact, in one such instance, the victim came out with her account of abuse only in the past year, though the incident happened during her early 20s and I knew of it 3 years ago.

I work as a disability counsellor, apart from my main job, and we come across many women and girls who suffer from debilitating neurological disorders. There are many instances we come across where they have been victims of abuse (some of which even the parents are unaware of). The women are scarred for life and withdraw so much that they get affected neurologically.

Predators exist everywhere and as one member pointed out, if you want to know more about what women go through, try asking your women colleagues or your own relatives. You will be astonished at their confessions.

I'm with the women here. They deserve to be heard.

Last edited by discoverwild : 4th November 2018 at 09:25.
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Old 4th November 2018, 09:45   #80
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Law does not work with what you think is stupid or not.
Tomorrow I go out and say that you touched me in appropriately or made lewd comments, the first thing you are going to say is what evidence do I have to even make a statement like this.
I do these cases for a living day and now it has been over 15 years . I do not get swayed by sentiments and emotions or media coverage. I am also assuming that you are not talking about me when you say people here do not know what a police complaint is. We can talk privately and discuss Cr.P.C there.
If you have 'heard' of so many incidents, rather than being a keyboard warrior here why not file a complaint on behalf of the alleged victim who told you about the incident. You are well within your rights to inform the authorities if you think something wrong was done to someone.
Like I said, bring me evidence and I will ensure justice is done.

Last edited by bigron : 4th November 2018 at 09:54.
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Old 4th November 2018, 09:49   #81
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post

In India in particular, our popular culture (eg films) fails to draw an appropriate line between wooing someone and sexual harassment. There are several examples of things that clearly would be sexual harassment even in a non workplace context that our films portray as acceptable. Further, the line in a workplace context has to be drawn in an even more conservative fashion. At our firm for example, asking someone for a date more than once is considered over the line behaviour. Discussing one’s sexual exploits in the workplace is also over the line. Planning a trip with colleagues to an adult entertainment establishment is also not acceptable. There would be lots of guys who think, “How is that harassment? I am just trying to woo someone” or “ We are just planning a fun evening out” but the fact is that creates an atmosphere where women find it intimidating - and that is unacceptable today.

I would however give some leeway for incidents that took place 10 or 15 years ago. The fact is that the standards of what is acceptable conduct have changed with time. But if one looks at the “#metoo” allegations, a number of cases are of conduct that should have been unacceptable even when it happened. It’s just that women thought they had to live with it as a price of being in the workplace then, and now realise that is not the case.

This is So Absolutely right! Our films and the way the so called Hero goes about his so called wooing, are a horrible and crass depiction of what is otherwise a perfectly natural thing. And sadly the masses, for whom Films and Tinselworld are the biggest Opiates, simply and blindly follow their leader. We just have to look around us, open our eyes and see the truth of this, which is evident everywhere. And this has been the case right from the films of the late 1960’s onwards, all across this country irrespective.
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Old 4th November 2018, 09:51   #82
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Law does not work with what you think is stupid or not.
Tomorrow I go out and say that you touched me in appropriately or made lewd comments, the first thing you are going to say is what evidence do I have to even make a statement like this.
I do these cases for a living. I do not get swayed by sentiments and emotions or media coverage.
If you have 'heard' of so many incidents, rather than being a keyboard warrior here why not file a complaint on behalf of the alleged victim who told you about the incident. You are well within your rights to inform then authorities if you think something wrong was done to someone.
Like I said, stories do not concern me. Bring me evidence and I will ensure justice is done.
Was that for me?

What kind of evidence will you get out of a predator touching someone inappropriately or mouthing something indecent? I'm not speaking about the law. I'm speaking about the attitude of law enforcers in general, based on personal experiences.

I said I work as a counsellor and my job is to be empathetic. The law works on hard evidence. I listen and try to find answers to behavioural changes due to incidents in the past. People generally open up to a third person than to a family member sometimes, and that's what I do. It's up to the victim and families if they have to pursue the incident legally. My job is to provide a patient hearing and advice them on what they could do for their physical and emotional healing.

Every one commenting here is a keyboard warrior, but it helps provide for a different perspective.

No personal offense intended.

Last edited by discoverwild : 4th November 2018 at 10:13.
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Old 4th November 2018, 10:07   #83
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@ discoverwild - None taken. You have your opinion and I have mine. You are talking about material evidence
however in such cases one tries looking for circumstantial evidence. I am hard wired to make a judgement based on facts and evidence. Even confessions I can work with.
I have personally done cases based purely on statement of the victim with no material evidence but purely circumstantial evidence.
However, my issue is with the use of social media to make statements and creating an environment to form a public opinion.

Last edited by bigron : 4th November 2018 at 10:18.
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Old 4th November 2018, 10:19   #84
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Social media is but a reflection of society, my friend. Everything lasts till Tuesday. It's forgotten on Wednesday. I did edit my previous comment, so do give it a look.

I don't watch news channels or much of TV except for a few movies. I read a few papers and most of what I write is from personal experience alone. The law doesn't always provide justice and that's hard learning for me. I wouldn't want to approach the courts ever again in my life. I did rather give up what I have already lost, rather than pursue additional trauma in the hope of getting justice.
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Old 4th November 2018, 10:21   #85
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@ discoverwild - I understand your point of view.

Last edited by bigron : 4th November 2018 at 10:30.
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Old 4th November 2018, 11:58   #86
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Default Re: #MeToo - Women's Safety in India

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Originally Posted by GrammarNazi View Post
Just read this.

"Woman, who accused US judge Brett Kavanaugh of sexual assault, has confessed that she made up her claims because she was 'angry'."

Imagine the agony an honest man & his family had to go through.
For a moment I thought Dr.Ford has recanted her claims. Then I clicked and found that some 70 year old woman claimed she was the Jane Doe in a letter sent to Senator Harris. And Trump (who lies all the time) is trying to make that viral. It has been proven beyond doubt that Brett Kavanaugh is not a honest man. He lied about too many things in the senate hearing, but republican senate ignored it. If Kavanaugh could lie so much about things that could be easily fact checked, what else he is lying about?

Quote:
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However, I am not believing you if you come 10 years after your alleged incident and make a post on twitter claiming what happened and get the media and public all riled up. What you end up doing is declare the other party guilty without even leading any evidence.
This is the root cause behind #MeToo movement. The pendulum has swung to the other side. Your side (lawyer/police/court) demands proof beyond reasonable doubt. But in cases of sexual harassment, that is rarely available. Let me remove my keyboard warrior hat, and hark back to my early days (early 90s) as a young employee at a small software firm headed by a very charismatic CEO. He was a rampant womanizer, who hired only pretty girls for all support/admin roles. With his Emraan Hashmi looks and charming voice, he successfully wooed many girls, and the rest resigned in a hurry. He had an official fiancee who visited the office frequently, and he later married her too. It had no effect on his office affairs though. None of us could say anything since none of the girls openly discussed it, let alone complain to police. In fact, many times we were complicit in covering for him when his fiancee (later wife) visited the office when he was having meeting with one of the girls in his closed cabin.

While many of us guys were disgusted by the behavior, we were scared for our jobs. Plus, salary was kept pending for many months (years in some case), we didn't want to be fired without the arrears. However, some other guys thought he was a hero, because he could successfully woo so many girls without any consequences. None of us at that time realised that wooing was easy for him since he held absolute power over them. We just thought it was his charm/looks, since it all seemed consensual. Since the Indian movies had imprinted that "repeated wooing leading to consensus" (Haseena Maan Jaayegi), his success at wooing seemed legit, if not moral.

If any of these girls had approached the law, they couldn't have produced any evidence that it was sexual harassment. This was the status quo forever. Now the pendulum has swung to the other side thanks to social media. Now zero evidence is required to upend the clean reputation of someone. Who is to be blamed for this situation? How about the folks who kept the pendulum firmly stuck to one side? The pendulum has became unstuck thanks to social media.

I am not saying I like this new reality of no evidence. But this is the new reality thanks to the old reality. Pendulum always swings to the other side with equal gusto.

What are we supposed to do with this allegation? Instead of sticking to the extreme ends of the pendulum, we should learn to look for pattern of behavior. Let the pendulum settle in the middle. We should have mechanisms to identify/discourage/eliminate such behavior early by having POSH education and ICC. Most corporates already have such mechanisms in place.

If Pallavi Gagoi could have approached the ICC after the very first incidence, and M.J.Akbar was warned off, it could have been nipped in the bud.

One more first hand incidence. I implemented POSH act in my company in 2015. Right after the training, one of the female employee was able to identify that she was being inappropriately touched by a security guard. Until then she didn't know how to react to the overly friendly guard. We had him moved out after the inquiry, where he confessed to the act. There was no law involved and it was quietly handled. He would be careful at his next assignment. This is how the pendulum can come to the rest in the middle. The sexual harassment education and quick intervention by POSH is the key.

Last edited by Samurai : 4th November 2018 at 13:31.
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Old 4th November 2018, 12:55   #87
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Courts of law are designed to adjudicate cases based on material evidence, which is the right intent to ensure personal opinions don't cloud objective truth.

Social injustice doesn't have that luxury, because most of it probably isn't illegal to begin with, because we either don't have laws that cover the subject or existing ones are inadequate in both intent and scope. All of this is a bit of a catch-22, because we're expecting a patriarchical society to establish law and norms that will diminish the patriarchical nature of our society itself. Principal Agent problem, one of Moderator Samurai's favorite topics.

Laws can be the trigger or the culmination of a societal change, but the change itself won't occur in a court of law.

Personal opinion, I subscribe to a 'Understand the past generation, engage the current one and educate the next one' mindset when it comes to social issues.
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:35   #88
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This will explain it:

Personal experience. I cycle to work. Slow and tired.

Times, I have been molested, harassed, groped: ZERO
Sir, with due respect, but just because it hasn't happened with you, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are cases where it has happened with men too. Forget men, kids (boys) are also not excused when it comes to this. Fortunately enough, I have not been through it yet like you but I have know some cases. The problem is the way we (as a society) look at this. The problem being discussed is a mental disorder if you ask me more than a gender driven problem. Yes, more female related cases are out in the open for sure but like I said earlier, it doesn't mean its limited only to women.

EDIT - sorry if this post of mine took it OT but just wanted to make the point.

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Old 5th November 2018, 11:07   #89
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@centaur.

The probability that a man will not get harassed in a public place and the probability that a woman will get harassed is the same.
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Old 5th November 2018, 13:14   #90
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The cases coming are not of public place harassment if we talk on the lines you mention. Also you seem to be rephrasing the same thing that I said - even if in small numbers, men too go through something similar.
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