#MeToo - Women's Safety in India

[msk016]

While reading this thread, I came across a lot of references to various reports comparing the situation of our women, with women in Afghanistan, Syria and even Saudi!
My interest in this subject peaked during the dreaded Nirbhaya incident. During my international travels, i was constantly bombarded with various questions regarding the society in India and how could we be so barbaric. I started reading up a bit to see if the situation was really as bad as it is made out to be.

To start with, I would urge all of you to read the book "Soft Power" by Joseph Nye. It will open your eyes about how branding of a nation is consciously carried out as a matter of policy. Joseph Nye advised the US government to stop positioning itself as a hard power and instead start projecting itself as a soft power. We have been seriously lacking in this aspect, in-spite of having tonnes of it.

Just go to nationmaster.com and you will see that India ranks roughly 150th in the descending order in terms of number of rape incidents per thousand population. These are UNHRC figures and not govt of India figures.The Lancet magazine, one of the most prestigious medical publications came out with a study which said that the rape rates in India and Bangladesh are one of the lowest in the world. Adjusted for population, the rape incidents are 5 times higher in England & Wales as compared to Delhi. Still Delhi is branded as the rape capital by our own media. One US government study shows that roughly 25% of all women in the US are subject to sexual abuse. Many people complain that the conviction rates in India for sexual crimes are just 25%, however only 25% of all cases in the US even result in an arrest!
Couple the above information with the fact that India has roughly 648000 towns and villages and we have only 12800 police stations. To put things in perspective, California alone has 13000 police stations. This not a matter of pride, but the point is, in spite of being such an under policed country how are the crime rates so low??

Have we ever thought about this? Branding of a nation is not just done with GDP & FDI numbers. The branding of a nation seriously effects its economy and its standing it the global society. There are demands to put economic sanctions against India because of this

DE-branding. Countries put out travel advisories against going to india because of this. Branding of a nation is today a part of geopolitics.
My intention here is not to demonize other societies and unjustly lionize our own. Even if there is one instance of rape or sexual abuse, my head hangs in shame. At the same time why are we so hell bent on taking everything at face value that the Washington post, Guardian, NYT & NDTV says?

Crimes against women is a very serious issue, but our understanding of the problem is flawed. A country like Switzerland gave voting rights to its women only in 1972. Sucheta Kriplani was the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh in the late 50s. We are looking for solutions in the wrong places and trying to apply models which are not suitable to our society.

Women today have largely been misled into believe that working in a office is somehow more valuable and empowering than working in your own house. I am definitely not saying that women should not work outside, but they should not be misled into believing a false narrative.
We have been constantly chasing gender equality. What we should be truly striving for is gender harmony.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by msk016

....India ranks roughly 150th in the descending order in terms of number of rape incidents per thousand population. These are UNHRC figures and not govt of India figures....

You need to square that with the fact that our rates of reporting crime, not just crimes against women but crimes in general, are seriously low.

.....in spite of being such an under policed country how are the crime rates so low?? Have we ever thought about this?

Same as above. Can't count a crime that was never reported or put on record.

Branding of a nation is not just done with GDP & FDI numbers. The branding of a nation seriously effects its economy and its standing it the global society.

Are you trying to imply there's some global geopolitical conspiracy to incorrectly paint India as some third-world crime-infested country nobody should visit?

....why are we so hell bent on taking everything at face value that the Washington post, Guardian, NYT & NDTV says?

Nobody should believe anything at face value, but nobody should blame their own lack of due diligence on erroneous data sources either. If one fell for flawed data and misrepresented statistics, one ought to take responsibility and do better research next time.

Women today have largely been misled into believe that working in a office is somehow more valuable and empowering than working in your own house. I am definitely not saying that women should not work outside, but they should not be misled into believing a false narrative.....

I'd love to see some evidence on that claim. Who exactly is doing the misleading here, and what exactly is the false narrative you're referring to?

You're right that we need to look for solutions internally, solutions that work with and account for our unique social, gender and economic realities. That said, we can always learn a good thing from somewhere else, even if it isn't directly applicable to us.
This isn't and shouldn't be a statistical competition, and it shouldn't matter what our 'ranking' is. It's no solace to a victim that they're part of a small statistical outlier.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by msk016

Women today have largely been misled into believe that working in a office is somehow more valuable and empowering than working in your own house. I am definitely not saying that women should not work outside, but they should not be misled into believing a false narrative..

The problem is not the women. The problem is the men. Maybe we should make men understand that it is way cooler keeping home than working in some stuffy office.

Originally Posted by msk016

. It will open your eyes about how branding of a nation is consciously carried out as a matter of policy. Joseph Nye advised the US government to stop positioning itself as a hard power and instead start projecting itself as a soft power.

Is that why they put the idiot Trump in power? To project a "soft power"?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

I'd love to see some evidence on that claim. Who exactly is doing the misleading here, and what exactly is the false narrative you're referring to?

I think he is referring to Jordan Peterson phenomena, Peterson claims men and women probably can't work together.

[Miyata]

I think you've made wonderful points. Some thoughts on few of the points :

Originally Posted by msk016

i was constantly bombarded with various questions regarding the society in India and how could we be so barbaric.

My observation is that people that are well read and have objectively thought about what they've read, don't get carried away by catchy titles and sensationalization of issues. Not intending to be judgmental, but those that leave their brains at the door can be guilty of such statements.

Women today have largely been misled into believe that working in a office is somehow more valuable and empowering than working in your own house. I am definitely not saying that women should not work outside, but they should not be misled into believing a false narrative.

I am not sure anyone is trying to mislead anyone on this, but I do think that financial independence has been one of the most important "tools" in women empowerment. It's possible there might be 10 in a million families where women are given the same respect and recognition as home-makers. This is not at all a false narrative though, but a bitter truth - more power to women gaining financial independence and putting an end to misery of the indoor emotional and physical tortures.

[msk016]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

You need to square that with the fact that our rates of reporting crime, not just crimes against women but crimes in general, are seriously low.

You need to provide some evidence about under reporting being of such magnitude. You cant assume that it is seriously low and hence the statistics don't matter. In my experience, if a crime is committed against a women, the gram panchayat and the rural folk will react so harshly, that it will create (atleast) local newspaper headlines. The urban situation is the one which needs special attention about under reporting.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Same as above. Can't count a crime that was never reported or put on record.

Same as above, evidence required.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Are you trying to imply there's some global geopolitical conspiracy to incorrectly paint India as some third-world crime-infested country nobody should visit?

Are you trying to imply that all the countries in the world and their respective intelligence agencies want India to prosper, develop and become a land of honey and milk? This kind of argument is not going to get us anywhere. You should read Rajiv Malhotra's book "Breaking India". This book will give you insights in to how external intelligence agencies are trying to exploit every fault line in our society, it can be gender issues, cast, religion, economic inequality, etc. It will tell you how gathering "Atrocity literature" is an industry today.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Nobody should believe anything at face value, but nobody should blame their own lack of due diligence on erroneous data sources either. If one fell for flawed data and misrepresented statistics, one ought to take responsibility and do better research next time.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/maga...rs-449050.html

This article should give you some idea about data sources and due diligence.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

I'd love to see some evidence on that claim. Who exactly is doing the misleading here, and what exactly is the false narrative you're referring to?

What claim? Who is making it? I have made no claims as such. I was simply mentioning my perception of the present day social media and main stream media. The false narrative being "It is more valuable and empowering for women to work in a office than at their own homes"

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

we can always learn a good thing from somewhere else, even if it isn't directly applicable to us.

Couldn't agree more with you about this. However, women's issues is not something we need to learn from, Especially the west, who themselves are struggling to solve these problems. If we can identify and develop our own models and practices, it will help us much better.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

This isn't and shouldn't be a statistical competition, and it shouldn't matter what our 'ranking' is. It's no solace to a victim that they're part of a small statistical outlier.

I completely agree with you that this should not be statistical competition. If rankings did not matter, then why do have these rankings in the first place? Why are we being compared to other countries? In my opinion statistics of this kind should be used constructively and not for demonizing or glorifying someone. These statistics are the only way to find out if the situation is improving or not. If we don't know where we are, we don't know if we are going forward or backwards

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The problem is not the women. The problem is the men. Maybe we should make men understand that it is way cooler keeping home than working in some stuffy office.

I don't think the problem is either men or women. The problem can be the ideas that occupy their respective thought processes.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Is that why they put the idiot Trump in power? To project a "soft power"?

No matter how much some one hates Trump. He is the outcome of a democratic process and we must respect it. Democracy is the best possible way of transferring power with minimal bloodshed.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I think he is referring to Jordan Peterson phenomena, Peterson claims men and women probably can't work together.

No Samurai, I am not aware of Jordan Peterson phenomena. I do not agree with it. The best possible example of men and women working together can be seen every day across innumerable farms all across India.

Originally Posted by Miyata

I am not sure anyone is trying to mislead anyone on this, but I do think that financial independence has been one of the most important "tools" in women empowerment. It's possible there might be 10 in a million families where women are given the same respect and recognition as home-makers. This is not at all a false narrative though, but a bitter truth - more power to women gaining financial independence and putting an end to misery of the indoor emotional and physical tortures.

I completely agree with you about women being self sufficient in financial terms.Women should attain financial independence and much more, but out of their own desire and free will, not under the perceived threat of being humiliated and tortured. I do not understand this idea of Independence and liberation. While perusing this idea, we have ended up liberating men from women and women from men. In my opinion what we need is true respect and acceptance for the inherent strengths and weakness of both men and women. I do not subscribe to this idea that every woman in every household is subject to physical and emotional torture. This would be a false narrative unless it is backed up with reliable data and research. It is dangerous to make such generalizations.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by msk016

Have we ever thought about this? Branding of a nation is not just done with GDP & FDI numbers. The branding of a nation seriously effects its economy and its standing it the global society....
DE-branding. Countries put out travel advisories against going to india because of this. Branding of a nation is today a part of geopolitics.
....At the same time why are we so hell bent on taking everything at face value that the Washington post, Guardian, NYT & NDTV says?

I'll stay with your point on branding of a nation. Well said. A bit off topic for this thread but in my view we, Indians, tend to indulge in self flagellation a little more than is needed. I observe this in drawing room debates, in our English media, in NRIs bitching about India and even on threads in social media like T-BHP. Where the West is concerned their media-intelligence agencies-power structures do consciously deride India and China and can rarely print news that is positive. Of course both India and China, being so large, throw up enough fodder for them to play with. On the flip side we Indians are eager for the West to think well of us - I am no different. Colonial hangover I say.

If you read western media on China you'd wonder how they went from nothing to the world's 2nd largest economy {even in nominal GDP terms} in just 70 years. At a sublimal level I believe there is a mix of fear & wariness of "the barbarians are coming". There is a hell of a lot to be done in India but we tend to overlook how far we have come despite being the most complex nation on Earth and we overlook how slowly the foundation for future progress is being laid all the time.

Not touching on women's safety as my views are already here on this thread in the earlier pages.

[msk016]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I'll stay with your point on branding of a nation. Well said. A bit off topic for this thread but in my view we, Indians, tend to indulge in self flagellation a little more than is needed. I observe this in drawing room debates, in our English media, in NRIs bitching about India and even on threads in social media like T-BHP. Where the West is concerned their media-intelligence agencies-power structures do consciously deride India and China and can rarely print news that is positive. Of course both India and China, being so large, throw up enough fodder for them to play with. On the flip side we Indians are eager for the West to think well of us - I am no different. Colonial hangover I say.

If you read western media on China you'd wonder how they went from nothing to the world's 2nd largest economy {even in nominal GDP terms} in just 70 years. At a sublimal level I believe there is a mix of fear & wariness of "the barbarians are coming". There is a hell of a lot to be done in India but we tend to overlook how far we have come despite being the most complex nation on Earth and we overlook how slowly the foundation for future progress is being laid all the time.

Not touching on women's safety as my views are already here on this thread in the earlier pages.

Absolutely spot on in your understanding sir. I wanted to use the term "colonial hangover" in my earlier post, but was really scared, fearing a backlash. I really must say that this forum is of a much higher quality than facebook and twitter. Over there I'm simply shouted down and abused to no end for expressing such views. What you said is not entirely off topic in my opinion, because all our social problems including women's safety get trivialized because of such generalisations and exaggerations. Real problems are not identified and real, workable solutions are not discussed.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by msk016

ou cant assume that it is seriously low and hence the statistics don't matter......

....Same as above, evidence required.

Here's a relevant 2016 study conducted by the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, titled Non Registration of Crimes: Problems and Solutions

It not only tackles the statistics, but also highlights the various systemic details that lead to either crimes going unreported, misreported, mis-classified or mishandled. Chapter 7 is of particular interest, and table 7.1 indicates nearly 73% of complaints don't make it to registered status due to police insensitivity alone and 77% due to the police feeling the case is false, according to the police personnel interviewed as part of the study.

Trying to report a crime to the police is just the beginning of the crime reporting process, not its entirety, and the police department themselves struggle with the system they function in, and I empathize with them.

What's undeniable though, is in a large percentage of cases, the wheels of justice don't even begin to turn.

We need police reform as urgently as we need criminal justice reform. Below is the opening quote of the report, from a 2013 judgment of the Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court if India.

“The number of FIRs not registered is approximately equivalent
to the number of FIRs actually registered. Keeping in view the
NCRB figures that show that about 60 lakh cognizable offences
were registered in India during the year 2012, the burking of
crime may itself be in the range of about 60 lakh every year.
Thus, it is seen that such a large number of FIRs are not
registered every year, which is a clear violation of the rights of
the victims of such a large number of crimes. Burking of crime
leads to dilution of the rule of law in the short run; and also has
a very negative impact on the rule of law in the long run since
people stop having respect for rule of law. Thus, nonregistration of such a large number of FIRs leads to a definite
lawlessness in the society.
(Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court of India in Lalita Kumari. vs.
Govt. of U.P. & Ors. NEW DELHI; NOVEMBER 12, 2013).”

Are you trying to imply that all the countries in the world and their respective intelligence agencies want India to.....

....It will tell you how gathering "Atrocity literature" is an industry today....

Tying geopolitics into crime statistics and public perception is an interesting debate, but not directly relevant to this thread. Feel free to open a separate thread, we have plenty of learned minds on this forum who'll contribute. I see Narayan has already responded to your point earlier.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/maga...rs-449050.html

This article should give you some idea about data sources and due diligence.

I honestly tried to read, even made it a couple pages in before the Myntra End of Reason Sale banners took over my phone screen and wouldn't go away. My apologies for not having read the whole thing to rebut it effectively (glad to read the original study the statistics are taken from, if you have a link), but the bit I did manage to read sounded more like a selection of statistics propagating a 'don't comment on my country while you have your own problems' rant than an objective analysis. In quoting evidence earlier, I've ensured to quote an Indian source (TISS 2016 study) to avoid claims of 'Western' influence.

What claim? Who is making it? I have made no claims as such.

The claim quoted below. If you make an assertion, it's your responsibility to support it with evidence. I'm unable to understand the false narrative you're alluding to.

Women today have largely been misled into believe that working in a office is somehow more valuable and empowering than working in your own house. I am definitely not saying that women should not work outside, but they should not be misled into believing a false narrative.....

Couldn't agree more with you about this. However, women's issues is not something we need to learn from, Especially the west, who themselves are struggling to solve these problems. If we can identify and develop our own models and practices, it will help us much better

While we may differ culturally from the 'West', the problems we face are predominantly human problems, and the solutions need not necessarily be local, and it doesn't hurt to take cues from elsewhere. Need not be the 'West', if that's a sore point by itself.

No matter how much some one hates Trump. He is the outcome of a democratic process and we must respect it. Democracy is the best possible way of transferring power with minimal bloodshed.

Specific names and the emotions they evoke are immaterial, but you definitely need to research the US Electoral System before you make definitive assertions.

Women should attain financial independence and much more, but out of their own desire and free will, not under the perceived threat of being humiliated and tortured.

Quod gratis asseritur gratis negatur.

[V.Narayan]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-repercussions

Very interesting and thoughtful article in the UK newspaper 'Guardian'. Don't jump to conclusions till you have read it through. Laura Kipnis, the writer, is known for her pragmatism.

[honeybee]

A very important point she has raised is what an employee does in his or her personal time can still be used against the employee by the employer. All time is company time.

Perhaps we need laws to clearly segregate these two and absolve the company of any responsibility of an act of an employee while he or she wasn't on company working time.

Or else sue the company for any act the employee committed in the off time!

[V.Narayan]

https://scroll.in/article/907124/gen...ent-of-suicide

Genpact sexual harassment case: Have police overreached by charging company with abetting suicide?
Source: Scroll.in

Some parts of this article are copied below. My aim is to highlight that in cases such as this there are no clear answers or right or wrong. It is always a nuanced situation. Putting this here for our members to appreciate the many shades of grey in this case and other similar cases.

‘This is not abetment’
In the Genpact case, the two women employees who approached the company’s internal complaints committee alleged that Raj had made several unwanted sexual advances towards them after an office party in mid-December. One of the women alleged that Raj had groped her in a car, repeatedly tried to make advances on her and, on the day she filed her complaint, sent her several unwanted texts and phone calls that left her feeling scared. Since the women worked in the same team as Raj, the company’s internal complaints committee suspended him temporarily to facilitate a fair trial. This, ostensibly, is what the police has framed as abetment of suicide.
In Section 107 of the Indian Penal Code, abetment is defined as the act of “instigating” or “intentionally aiding” a person to do a particular thing.

“Abetment of a crime has a very narrow and specific meaning in law – it involves an act that has an obvious causal link to the crime committed,” said Gautam Bhatia, a lawyer in Delhi. While suicide is not a crime, a person can be booked for abetment of suicide only if they have committed an act of instigation that is directly correlated to the suicide. “Nothing of the sort is there in this [Genpact] case,” said Bhatia. “It is definitely not abetment.”

Abetment charges are most often applied in cases where women commit suicide after domestic violence or dowry harassment. “Even then, making that correlation in a trial is very difficult,” said Veena Gowda, a Bombay High Court lawyer who also serves as an external committee member of sexual harassment internal complaints committee of several companies. “The police cannot file abetment charges in this case where the ICC was performing its statutory duty. Otherwise anyone will be afraid of accessing the law.”

Gowda also believes that the Greater Noida police erred by asking Genpact and its seven accused employees to present themselves at the police station in this case. “If the suicide note claims that there was a sexual harassment complaint filed, then the police should have first asked the company to provide the necessary documentation to verify them,” she said.

‘Women will be afraid to complain’

Pramod Bhasin, Genpact’s founder who quit the company in 2011 and now works as an investor in financial and other services, suggested that the abetment case filed will serve as a setback against efforts to keep women safe in the workplace.
“One of the elements of having successful policies [against sexual harassment] is to give women the confidence to report any issue without feeling incriminated or being made to feel guilty themselves,” said Bhasin. “This will now be destroyed.”
He added: “How many women will want to come up and report anything in the aftermath of this? Women being afraid to complain was the original problem before the law came in.”

Bhasin emphasised that Raj’s suspension was in accordance with the law – internal complaints committees are allowed to suspend employees accused of sexual harassment in the interest of protecting complainants and facilitating fair inquiries. “Genpact has suspended people before too, during inquiries into sexual harassment complaints,” he said. “No one has reacted like this before. A person losing their life is unimaginably tragic, and the entire organisation is in mourning. But it is wrong to associate it with efforts to keep women safe at the workplace.”

Officials in other companies believe that the case against Genpact will now push companies to be more sensitive about the confidentiality of sexual harassment inquiries. “Whether or not a person is guilty, word gets around about complaints and there is a stigma that gets attached to the accused,” said a human resources executive at a Delhi company who did not wish to be identified. “So I think companies will now be careful about ensuring the privacy of inquiries and making sure that there is no stigma attached to them.”

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

While we may differ culturally from the 'West', the problems we face are predominantly human problems, and the solutions need not necessarily be local, and it doesn't hurt to take cues from elsewhere. Need not be the 'West', if that's a sore point by itself.

I think we should look to the west, in matters relating to these things.. a little. What we Indians are experts at, is taking offense.. we take offense at everything that doesn't connect with us at all.. if it does connect us then we're willing to go to war to save our honor. Sports, regionalism, human "overexcessive" idolatry, why even catching onto western movement concepts like feminism, LGBT and blowing it up 1 billion times is a thing in India. Indians get offended - period.

In the west we wont have people worshiping a Bush, Obama, Trump, Clinton etc, as many if not more people have been brutally frank about the lies, exploits and manipulations of these presidents as there have been sympathizers. In India we are barely hobbling about, trying to survive and the battle of the palm and the lotus seems to be the foremost thing with the respective supporters bashing each other up for it. Michael Jordan and Barry Bonds have as many critics as they have fans, here one negative comment against Virat Kohli or Tendulkar > YOU'RE NOT INDIAN!!!

Women's safety will improve when the women know where to draw, or cut the line. Until then there is always risk of casualties in this gender blender called the workplace. When does a joke get too far, when does friendship cross into something else, when do spoken words need attention.. we don't know. All it takes is one complaint by a woman, and the offender is hanged promptly. There should be 24/7 camera monitoring, and 24/7 people walking around workstations like matrons just so that there is no friendship, chemistry, or a budding romance blooming within an office.. that should stop most of these harassment scandals. In America, in most harassment scandals.. the woman is looked at with equal doubt as the man.. heck in the great White House scandal, the intern was shunted while the Commander-in-Chief stayed on, even though most people knew it should've been the opposite.

For the other countries to see us as different, I think we should stop taking offense at everything. Let social media highlight our drains, slums and unsafe nature, let them scream hoarse about our roads, lack of toilets and power. Somewhere in there, is truth as well. I'm an Indian who learnt pretty early not to take offense at anything, social media is there for the single purpose of mowing things down and if I'm in it, I'll get mowed down as well. There are more than a fair share of westerners who've adopted the beautiful religion of Sanatana Dharma, who believe in Indian concepts of family and virtues and also find the simplistic nature and ways of the country appealing. To me we were a far greater country 2 decades ago when I was a kid, than we are now. Time to go back to our peaceful, unassuming ways.

[dailydriver]

An interesting perspective on gender sensitization.

Shah Rukh Khan on Respecting Women: I Still Knock on the Bedroom Door if My Wife’s Changing

Talking about how to navigate relationships and behave with women in everyday life, he recently told Indian Express, “Three things: Respect, respect, and respect. I really believe that. Some of my women friends, whom I have known for years, find me too formal at times. But there is no romance and love without respect.”

“Respect means equality, and I don’t mean the social media’s #equality. To me, equality is letting you know how weak I am, equality is asking you, can you take care of me? This is what I’ve done with my wife, and my women friends because I genuinely love them,” he said.

Highlighting the importance of teaching boys about gender sensitivity, Shah Rukh added, “I teach my 21-year-old son that disrespecting a person is not okay, and I don’t mean beating or the kind of things that #MeToo has brought out. I’m talking about basic respect.”

Then giving his own example, he added, “I’ve been married for 30 years — I’ve never looked into my wife’s purse. I still knock on the bedroom door if she’s changing; I knock on my daughter’s bedroom door. They know it’s me, but this is their space

Source: News18.com