[xingamazon]

I know this would not be a pleasant thing for many folks in the group. But request you to hear me out, before you get angry on this.

I always thought that we, Team-BHPians as a group take an absolute ethical stand on literally every aspect, be it discussions when the Manufacturer takes an owner for a ride having sold a lemon or providing a fair and accurate review of launches or taking a stand on service quality provided by the vehicle. When we are taking an ethical stand on so many aspects of car, from the buyer's viewpoint. I think, it is also equally important that we take a stand as a forum from the vehicle manufacturer's viewpoint as well.

Every time there is a new launch, there are considerable efforts that the car makers put to ensure it is revealed in the right way at the right time and right price. But untimely leaked scoops of new cars/ UVs will put all their plans into disarray or create unprecedented pressure, it might also end up giving unfair advantage to the competitors. This is in my view simply equivalent to movie scenes being posted online by pirates. Which might interest the viewer, but it is not fair to the producers.

With all these things being impacted, shouldn't we take an ethical stand and stop posting scoops. I am open to be corrected.

[Thermodynamics]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

shouldn't we take an ethical stand and stop posting scoops.

I think, a product doesn't become a flop because of scoop. On the other hand, scoops are free promotions. Can sometimes be even purposeful as it gives automakers aplenty data points to gauge customer anticipation and price them accordingly.

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

With all these things being impacted, shouldn't we take an ethical stand and stop posting scoops. I am open to be corrected.

Are you open to think there's a possibility these "scoops" are deliberately leaked, or are enabled. It isn't very hard for a manufacturer to test a car without anyone finding out. But most chose to do so on very public roads with camouflage to spark your interest.

They need the build up and the scoops just help to keep interest alive.

[saket77]

Many times manufacturers intend to 'pass-on' a scoop! Who doesn't like free publicity? And a scoop here and there helps create all that buzz around the car that even manufacturers won't get after spending big money on publicity.

And if a car is being tested on 'public roads', there's no way that can remain a 'secret' anymore. If the true intention of the manufacturer is to keep it a secret, it may be tested like the 4th gen Honda City where not a single mule was spotted on the roads.

And when clicked on roads, scoops can be fun too! Remember how VW disguised the Vento as a Ford while testing the Vento on public roads?

Regards,
Saket.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

I think, it is also equally important that we take a stand as a forum for vehicle manufacturers viewpoint as well.

I don't think it's equally important, for the simple reason that your average vehicle manufacturer has crores of rupees for advertising and legal costs to get their view across and defend their interests. Add to that auto mags that are heavily dependent on their advertising revenue to not dare write anything bad about a vehicle and weekly paid articles in all newspapers. Not to mention, immense clout and leverage with various government ministries and the knowledge that our legal system is probably not the most efficient in the world to be able to effectively enforce even the rather weak safety and consumer-protection regulations that we have here.

We just have...us.

So, if anything, I'm ok if we as a forum are slightly biased against vehicle manufacturers and pro-consumer.

Plus, as people have correctly pointed out, most of these 'scoops' are deliberate. Free advertising.

[SmartCat]

Yeah, I'm almost 100% sure that camouflaging of vehicles on public roads is a marketing gimmick. Majority of cars sold are neither style champions nor revolutionary designs.

[gkveda]

Driving a camouflaged Vehicle on Public Road is analogous to Producer himself uploading the unreleased version of the movie video (May be called Trial version - official) on YouTube.

Once it is uploaded by producer himself, how can anyone say that it is pirated video? secondly, how can anyone say, it is not ethical for others to see /download the video?

Same logic here. If in case, any of the BHPian pops inside the factory and takes videos / Pictures of the cars that are being manufactured secretly and publishes the pictures here without permission from the manufacturer, then it may be called Pirated.

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

I know this would not be pleasant thing for many folks in the group. But requests you to hear me out, before you get angry on this.

Every time there is a new launch, there are considerable efforts that the car makers put to ensure it is revealed in the right way at the right time and right price. But untimely leaked scoops of new cars/ UVs will put all their plans into disarray or create unprecedented pressure, it might also end up giving unfair advantage to the competitors. This is in my view simply equivalent to movie scenes being posted online by pirates. Which might interest the viewer but is not fair to the producers.

I agree to this point. Scoops, inside news from sources or leaks, all of these seem unethical. As if we are peeping into someone's work which he/she doesn't want to showcase. And also at times, it creates a wrong impression/expectation about a product since some of them are rumors and speculations. These are just my thoughts.

PS: I know few instances of people getting fired by an automotive major as they were sharing information (knowingly or unknowingly) about upcoming models, with their friends/acquaintance.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

With all these things being impacted, shouldn't we take an ethical stand and stop posting scoops. I am open to be corrected.

Yes, before manufacturers posts #metoo against Team Bhp.

Originally Posted by xingamazon

This is in my view simply equivalent to movie scenes being posted online by pirates.

Wrong example. That would be if - Team Bhp allows people to take free rentals of cars which are launched in the market, thereby affecting revenue of manufacturers.

If you need an example from the film field - what you are requesting is to stop watching, analysing and reviewing trailers till the film is actually released in theatres. You shouldn't read which actor has signed up for which upcoming film, what is the plot going to be based on, which genre of story telling it is going to employ etc.

But people do, and it doesn't affect films - it only builds to the hype. Want an example, try Marvel Avengers 4 - there are thousands of videos spending hundreds of thousands of hours analyzing whats going to unwind next year. Will it make the upcoming movie a flop? I dont think so.

Unless the movie itself is bad.

Many people had mentioned in the Renault Captur thread that the Team-Bhp thread might have contributed to the flop show, and even I had a question running on my mind since I wrote it - till GTO came up with the unbiased review which made it quite clear (To me) why the launch failed. Non competitive products at non competitive prices fail even with whatever less scoops (Recent case in point - Yaris).

Scoops also help, specially in the case of manufacturers other than Toyota, Maruti and Hyundai. Take MG Motors for example, how much of publicity they have got before their first launch thanks to intentional and otherwise scoops. Without any of these, imagine it launching one day all of a sudden with people not even knowing who or what they are! Or forget the Chinese, take even the TATA Harrier - the thread has run into more than 7 lakh views already, and its all free publicity that TATA is receiving - well ahead of launch.

Originally Posted by ashis89

I agree to this point. Scoops, inside news from sources or leaks, all of these seem unethical. As if we are peeping into someone's work which he/she doesn't want to showcase.

We live in a world of political correctness, so anything and everything can be seen as unethical in the eyes of another. But before we weigh out the pros and cons - one look at the other side -

Is it ethical for manufacturers to build sub-standards products for India?
Is it ethical when products, even expensive ones fail in crash tests?
Is it ethical when we get lookalike products of international ones, but based on local platforms?

Is it ethical when our cars lose out on features, even though prices are higher?
Is it ethical when we get taxed left, right and centre when we buy such products?
Is it ethical when automotive journalists, who are supposed to speak up for us, keep silent on consumer issues?

Is it ethical when manufacturers lobby up against consumer protection rules? (Lowering on NCAP standards, helmet rules etc to name a few)
Is it ethical when manufacturers suddenly pack up and leave the country leaving the owners suffering?
Is it ethical when consumer courts make you run pillar to post for years, and these manufacturers ignore you knowing very well you wont go to court?

To me - the only ethical stand here is how, we consumers, are getting enablers to decide on how our money is getting spend. Remember - its our money at stake when we buy these cars - we might just get robbed of it if these companies only get their right of way. These companies are not showing charity on the market, they are doing it out of our money afterall, just that its not evidently so in a capitalistic market!

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

With all these things being impacted, shouldn't we take an ethical stand and stop posting scoops. I am open to be corrected.

If the scoop is out there in the social media, blogs, other websites: can T-BHP's stand to not publish such news/articles change anything about the situation?

[Lone Ranger]

There is nothing unethical about taking a picture of a curious looking car on public roads. If manufacturers really wanted to really hide the looks of their car, they could quite easily paint the car a dullish grey, beat up the body panels a little here and there, throw in a few bumper scratches, ditch the allow wheels and almost nobody would give it a second glance.
Actually, to make it even more authentic, all they need to do is to hand it over to a Meru/Ola/Uber driver for a few days and he would do the needful within a week
This is just a way to create free 'buzz'. I only wish the automotive industry was so efficient as to look at scoop images of competitors and immediately decide to improve their own products. Heck, almost all of them are still getting used to the notion that people looking for automatic cars might prefer the top variant beccause they want convenience and safety and features!

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

With all these things being impacted, shouldn't we take an ethical stand and stop posting scoops. I am open to be corrected.

You got it sir. I'll only put my views in points to make it simpler:

1) Manufacturers know their vehicles that undergo testing will be seen by people/press.

2) Because of point 1, they camouflage their vehicles.

3) Many details like car code-name, engine specs, possible gearbox combinations etc are made available to the press by the companies itself.

4) Where is the question of ethics? The manufacturers are milking free publicity in the process and they love it.

5) A product does not flop because it is leaked, it is not a film leak on a torrent site. On the contrary, small leaks create a hype over the product and cause better sales provided the product is genuinely great.

6) Stuff gets onto the internet one way or another, manufacturers know this.. in South Korea there were leaks of the next-gen Sonata and Elantra right off the Hyundai factory floor. If its a good looking car people will want to buy it anyway and if it doesn't ring with the buyers then it'll flop.

7) We give way too much importance to cars and go as far as ethics for what is basically a heavily profit oriented, polluting industry. Lets not worry too much, if they wanted their cars not to be seen, all the manufacturers can build 3-4km long test racks within their 300-400 acre campuses and let their cars run rings around them infinitely. Most of the factories already have a testing circuit and they use them only to break-in the car after assembly.

[ajmat]

When a manufacturer tests a prototype on the road, they take a calculated risk. We kept seeing the Tiago prototype parked on the national highway in Bommanahalli a year before its actual release.

We know Maruti's releases months before they are due when their prototypes are tested. To lessen the scoop factor, manufacturers release concept cars before the real thing. This makes the sense of an actual scoop get dumbed down since we are aware of the concept. How many new cars have surprised us, being new to us first time around? The Nano springs to my mind and a few Hyundais where most of the design is done far away and only durability tests are completed here.

What no one sees or notices are the mules. Externally, it looks the same but internally, it uses something totally different. Some examples are the VW Golfs running around Pune - are they mules testing components ?

Another point, if we dont publish any scoop, someone else will. Heck! major auto portals take our scoops, rub out the watermark or approach the member directly with a financial incentive!

[VKumar]

A mindset changing conversation:
Currently I am a student in one of the well known B schools, one day we had a person delivering a guest lecture - who has headed the top position in the marketing department of one of the car manufacturers in India; along with a long stint of holding positions in top brass in marketing department of many.

He told us about how they went on to use viral marketing for the first time in India and how how they launched one of the most successful cars to have ever launched in the Indian market and probably for the first time used camouflaged cars too.

In his presentation, it was a very very clear indication that the usage of camouflaged cars and a lot of scoop pics were all intentional to make sure that the market hype stays on and consumer interest is maintained.

When I asked in one to one conversation about this scooping and all, three highlights I got were:

• These days having the pics of a camouflaged car means the manufacturer is sure bringing on something - this helps by making many consumers put their purchase on hold
• Many 'anonymous' sources are actually they - themselves
• It is important to have the car camouflaged even if it is launched anywhere else too as it is a simple way of catching the attention of all other road users and the news and social media does their job of making sure that people do identify what they spotted!

In other words, there is nothing wrong with scooping and if manufacturers are so much concerned - go and test in the jungles of Amazon or some other place with less or nearly zero population. I don't see a reason for a camouflaged car to be parked in open near places like say cyberhub of Gurgaon during the peak times other than an unintentional looking way of intentionally showing what is there behind the covers.

[GrandTourer]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

It will put all their plans into disarray or create unprecedented pressure, it might also end up giving unfair advantage to the competition

I'm not going to debate any point other than this, for the simple reason that enough has been talked about them before me in the thread:

1. Put their plans into disarray - First of all, developing a car is not like creating a software, where if information about your product is leaked, you might have to re-think the design. Automotive R&D takes a long time and untimely leaks (which I strongly believe cannot happen without the automaker's top brass' approval) will not force them to improvise greatly.

2. Give unfair advantage to Competition - I seriously cannot comprehend a competitor dropping their development strategy and come up with a new one based on an early scoop.
Can you imagine this (hypothetical) situation in Suzuki R&D - when the Ciaz was introduced, the rear end IMO looked very similar to the then available City's. So did the designers at MS go:

Designer 1 - "Hey, did you see the scoop that ABC car magazine published of City? Man I love the taillight and the rear bumper. Let's recreate that on our models."

Designer 2 - "But dude, we have our launch scheduled in 2 months, and the car is ready for road test."

D1 - "That's okay, MS has a lot of revenue. We can redesign the entire thing and launch 6 months later. Do you think the leadership will give a go ahead?"

D2- "Sure why not? Let's ask them"

Yeah, I'm sure the leadership would agree