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-   -   My experience of getting fired! (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifting-gears/212524-my-experience-getting-fired-7.html)

V.Narayan 31st August 2019 23:01

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguar (Post 4648876)
With all due respect to your age and experience, I don't think blaming the laws is right. At the end of the day, employment is a contract. If either party wants to exit, they have an option to do so as per the agreed terms and conditions. There are many companies who do this gracefully, give adequate notice, pay a severence amount and part ways with a shake hand. I was laid off 8 years ago when the company decided to exit India operations and this is how they did it. My current organization too has a similar process. When some companies can do it, why not others?

You don't need to respect age or experience. I believe you are missing the point altogether. In my industry, being smaller and more technically specialized than IT/ITeS if an employee was terminated through the formal route it meant he/she was effectively incapable of finding a job in India within the industry. Telling him, brother your times up for reasons XYZ, but we'll let you resign to save you the ignominy is a humane way to do it. Dont say ' don't blame the law' as I suspect you don't know it. Also asking an employee to resign to save both sides does not mean the departing employee isn't paid his dues but yes there is no question of paying him extra compensation especially when the termination is on grounds of behaviour, integrity or non-performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenhorn (Post 4648912)
In that regulatory void, what applies - is it contract law, are there any laws or bodies governing the employer-employee relationship? or are we just a nation of(mostly) IT sweatshops?

The IT industry has given millions of young people jobs at higher salaries than what is paid outside the IT and Financial services industries and a standard of living 2X or 3X higher than what the previous generation enjoyed for exactly the same work. So while some may have angst against the way HR departments in IT behave many on this forum owe their cars to that industry. The reason many in the IT industry are facing the axe is because their wages are too high to withstand the economic turmoil in the world's export markets. In my industry I used to advice pilots not to thump the table demanding extra ordinary wages when times were good. And when lean days came the tallest fell first. In addition to the very sensible points Hayek has made I would add - don't over price yourself.

Jaguar 1st September 2019 00:25

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 4648891)
Please don't get swayed by googled facts that are applicable to other countries.

V.Narayan is very accurate in his description of the reality. I am also an employer.

I have been laid off once and I have also seen my colleagues getting laid off from my current organization. Both the companies did/do it in a dignified manner. So I know for a fact that proper terminiation is possible in India.


V.Narayan mentioned something specific to a niche industry. I know only about IT.

Samurai 1st September 2019 01:11

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguar (Post 4648975)
I have been laid off once and I have also seen my colleagues getting laid off from my current organization. Both the companies did/do it in a dignified manner. So I know for a fact that proper terminiation is possible in India.

Can you please point me to the applicable laws.

In Karnataka, the termination rules for IT/ITES comes under the Karnataka Shops and Commercial Establishments Acts, 1961. Check page 28 of this act. This rule overrules anything you put in the contract.

The above is only one of the laws. There are more laws that apply to IT/ITES. Karnataka has exempted the IT/ITES companies from Industrial Employment (Standing Orders) Act.

dragracer567 1st September 2019 10:25

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
First of all, I really have to thank selfdrive for this post/thread. I just graduated and got my first job! While things are going well in the company (really well right now actually), I sometimes have this thought on the back of my head as to what would happen if I loose my job. While my parents are there to support me right now, the last thing I want to do is go back to depending on my parents. But your post was really an eye-opener that the possibility of loosing my job isn't possibly the worst thing ever, there's more to life than just your job!

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand (Post 4647513)
This is one thing that I don't like in many of my male colleagues and team mates. Highly egoistic behavior IMO- so much so that after they got married, they have got their working wives to leave their job. they say "When I'm earning well, my wife need not take stress". Even though majority of them don't have other sources of income.

Of course there are other cases like no other person at home to take care of the kid, wife not willing to work etc. But that is a minority. Having another earning member is so important for such times and it is highly probable that everyone will face such a situation in their professional life at least once.

According to my observation, this happens every decade and if you pass through, you're mostly set for another decade.

I completely agree. In this age of gender equality, the onus of earning bread and taking care of the household should never be shouldered by one gender alone. While I obviously don't have a family yet, when I was a kid (6-7 years old) and we were in Kuwait, I remember that my dad lost his job and was unemployed for almost 8 months and the only reason we persevered was because my mom was working.

:OT In India, female participation actually fell in the work-force and around 40-60 per cent of men and women believe married women should not work if the husband earns reasonably well ( https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a8915011.html ).

I can't stress this enough, we will never be a developed country unless we can attain gender equality in the workplace.

jetsetgo08 1st September 2019 10:43

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
@selfdrive - Thanks for creating a thread that makes many realize how it feels wading through the situation. May we know what was the domain and technology skill set you were working in?

Pardon if my post sounds pessimistic. I couldn't crack a govt. job despite several attempts post which I had no choice but to join the rat race of IT. It's been 9 years now and I could luckily survive several scares, But now, the feeling that I am falling behind the rat race is slowly creeping into me.

Surprisingly, I still could not figure out on how some people manage to be in the right place(read as being in the right domain with the apt tech skill set) at the right time. Their career keeps growing as if there is no end to it. Could someone enlighten on how to develop such acumen for learning and growth? I believe that recession doesn't hit all the sectors at the same time. If we could somehow predict the situation, there could be a way to avoid it.

CarJunki 1st September 2019 12:52

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Thanks selfdrive for sharing what you went through, it is not easy to pen difficult emotional moments. Congratulations on new job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoumenD (Post 4647178)
Off-Topic:
Question to experienced folks : Is it justified investing in MFs while you still have loans running? Or is it better to first accumulate as much as possible to close the loans(atleast car loan) & then continue investing. Home loan atleast gives some tax benefits.

If there was any investment providing better returns than giving that loan to you (or any other consumer) banks will put money there.
At the same time use surplus income to close loan as fast as possible and maybe 10-15% of that surplus income towards investment. This will simultaneously help reduce burden and increase/make available some capital when loan is closed.
I have used this strategy myself.

Tax benefit: Before one gets the tax benefit, they have to pay interest and principle of loan. Tax benefit is only reducing cost of financing.

CarJunki 1st September 2019 13:17

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 4648891)
No employment contract can override state labour laws. Employer can put all kinds of fancy clauses to intimidate the employees. But it can't override the state labour law. Period.

That is why employer tries to get resignation than termination. This is the reality in India. Please don't get swayed by googled facts that are applicable to other countries.

V.Narayan is very accurate in his description of the reality. I am also an employer.

In karnataka and Maharashtra, Engineers working in IT companies (irrespective of position) do not get protection from Labor Law as the engineers are treated by regulations as practicing professionals. Proof, see the form 16 which will clearly state amount of profession tax paid to state government.

Jaguar 1st September 2019 23:51

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 4648987)
Can you please point me to the applicable laws.

I am not aware of the laws, nor am I interested in understanding them at this point just to make an argument. All I am saying is when there are companies who are doing things in the right way (right in an ethical sense), why not others? And, if the laws are so employee-friendly, how come these same companies are able to get bonds signed and enforce notice preiods? Aren't they afraid of legal repercussions for those?

greenhorn 2nd September 2019 01:11

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by V.Narayan (Post 4648957)

The IT industry has given millions of young people jobs at higher salaries than what is paid outside the IT and Financial services industries and a standard of living 2X or 3X higher than what the previous generation enjoyed for exactly the same work. So while some may have angst against the way HR departments in IT behave many on this forum owe their cars to that industry. The reason many in the IT industry are facing the axe is because their wages are too high to withstand the economic turmoil in the world's export markets.

While that may have been true 20 or 10 years ago, its not true any more.
My Father in law was shocked to find out that after my wife joined a major IT co after her post graduation, she earned less than a peon in his bank would starting out. Wages in the IT sector have largely stagnated while others have moved up. People still think IT industry folks are overpaid and live a plush life. I recall a team bhp meet where I got together with 2 other bhpian's working in other sectors, and when the time came to pay the bill, they started to rib me saying that after this many years in the IT industry, i should be swimming in money, and that I should pay the bill. After a bit of back and forth, i gave up my salary, and both were shocked, apologized and offered to pay the bill. When I started working, i earned more than my mom and dad combined (who were both in very senior govt posts).

But today, I don't even earn as much as their pension.

selfdrive 2nd September 2019 08:48

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by srishiva (Post 4647685)
The partner company that we work with has let go lots of senior people. I have heard they pay 15 months salary for people completing 10 years!

It is only reasonable to expect some assistance when firing people. Even umpires warn the bowler verbally for running on the pitch before issuing official warnings. Perhaps a heads up of a couple of months before the notice period starts. In terms of corporate budgets, that is not too much to ask for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romins (Post 4647693)
Rent is not going to change drastically, EMIs do change. It changed from 16k to 23k for me in 2-3years.
> 20k in Mutual Funds might give you more returns than owning an apartment.

I am confused by a couple of these statements. At least where I live, rentals have been steady or slightly going up. I don't see why EMI amounts should increase unless one opts for a step up loan.
Mutual funds do not always provide the mentioned returns, it depends on when one encashes them. One would need to time the market right.
I do agree with the amortization part. I have seen a few people pay ff loans towards the last quarter of their loan tenure. Technically speaking that would be the worst time to pay off the loan. One might just invest the available money elsewhere and repay the EMIs as the bank has already earned most of their interest in the first half of the loan tenure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slick (Post 4647718)
I had similar experience with the HR, that their demeanor changed after the notice, though my friends stood firm by me. In my current job I do not take anything for granted

Attitudes and behaviour of people changing is one of the most difficult things to face, but also one of the easiest to deal with once you make your peace and get past the denial phase. Anyone who does not stand by you does not really matter, neither does their opinion of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ash22 (Post 4647736)
Salaried employees should have a backup income and have to Keep the commitments low due to uncertainty of IT jobs. We strongly have to look out for a secondary income. Let it be a rental income from property outskirts or FD interest from a bank loan etc.

I agree. It definitely makes sense to have a secondary source of income. But it should not come at the cost of another loan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vishyvish (Post 4647951)
My story was a bit different. More of volunteering, than enforced....
Quote below my thoughts a couple of days later aye had tapped and forwarded to my friends.
"Retirement and the aftermath!!

Thanks sir for sharing. That is very eloquently written and captures all teh emotions one can go through during such a situation. It helps to know there are others also who are pulling through such situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon (Post 4648011)
Terms like "an employment bond, accepting of resignation" remind me of slavery. In the 90s when I quit my employer to move to the US, the HR person said "congratulations on your new job, we have accepted your resignation", I remember thinking, and if you dont accept - who cares?clap:

That is a hilarious incident.
In my experience, we are important to the organisation till an extent. During this time we will need to be available during our personal time as well. Once they are done, we will be dropped like a hot potato.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H Karter (Post 4648072)
@Selfdrive, It's indeed courageous to write down the darker side of our - men's - life. It touched our souls...
I have been through such Identity loss phenomenon and it lasted for a good long 20 months. Being in a PSU, finances were not a problem.

It is surreal to hear of experiences from PSU, let alone outside of IT sector. We always associate government jobs with job security and pensions, so to hear otherwise comes as a real surprise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoothRoyd (Post 4648155)
Quoting Edwin Markham -
For all your days prepare, and meet them all alike.
When you are the anvil bear, when you are the hammer strike.

Extremely relevant words, will try to pin them up on my desk as motivation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjit (Post 4648198)
At times, it is very easy for us to blame the system, the boss, the organization, the family and the social circle for all the ills that befall us, but its only upon us to realize that nowhere is there certainty in this world, be it in a Job or in Business.

I think the primary issue I faced was that I expected some people to do certain things. Not because I felt entitled, but because either I had a good equation with them or because I had done something for them earlier. I was quite resentful of the fact that some friends whom I helped through thick and thin did not do anything for me (in terms of supporting/ reassuring me in the situation, not in terms of job search or references). It made me feel that all the time, efforts, energies and emotions I had invested in supporting them through their situations was a complete waste of time.

But once I made my peace that I had not supported them just so that they support me later, I was better off dealing with the situation. Because I no longer expected any reassurances.

Samurai 2nd September 2019 15:28

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CarJunki (Post 4649157)
In karnataka and Maharashtra, Engineers working in IT companies (irrespective of position) do not get protection from Labor Law as the engineers are treated by regulations as practicing professionals. Proof, see the form 16 which will clearly state amount of profession tax paid to state government.

But if they are employees, they still come under Shops and Establishment Act. Please look up page 6 of the document I have already shared, where it talks specifically about women in software.

It says:
Quote:

Amending Act 14 of 2002.- Section 25 of the Karnataka Shops and Commercial Establishments Act, 1961 prohibits employment of women and young persons during night. Establishments of Information Technology or Information Technology enabled service. develop software for foreign customers. The personnel in these establishments often work late in the night. The Personnel have to interact with their customers late in evenings or throughout the night depending upon the global part of the Country. These establishments employ good number of women workers. As section 25 prohibits emplotment of women during night it has affected working of
the establishments. Software development is usually entrusted to a team which may also include women employees.
The above amendment would be meaningless if software didn't come under the shops and establishment law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguar (Post 4649415)
I am not aware of the laws, nor am I interested in understanding them at this point just to make an argument. All I am saying is when there are companies who are doing things in the right way (right in an ethical sense), why not others? And, if the laws are so employee-friendly, how come these same companies are able to get bonds signed and enforce notice preiods? Aren't they afraid of legal repercussions for those?

As yourself admit, you are ignorant of the labour laws, and have no interest in learning it. But the employer and their HR department is very well aware of laws because it is necessary. For example, I have to be very aware of the law, or else government will fine me pretty badly for any violation. Ignorance of law cannot be used as an excuse.

Knowing the law also helps employer to avoid situations that can end up in the courts. All their HR processes are designed to achieve that goal.

vnabhi 2nd September 2019 18:12

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by V.Narayan (Post 4648957)

The IT industry has given millions of young people jobs at higher salaries than what is paid outside the IT and Financial services industries and a standard of living 2X or 3X higher than what the previous generation enjoyed for exactly the same work.

No longer valid, after the 6th and 7th pay commission wage revisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenhorn (Post 4649432)
While that may have been true 20 or 10 years ago, its not true any more.
My Father in law was shocked to find out that after my wife joined a major IT co after her post graduation, she earned less than a peon in his bank would starting out. Wages in the IT sector have largely stagnated while others have moved up. People still think IT industry folks are overpaid and live a plush life.

But today, I don't even earn as much as their pension.

When I left my PSU job as an AGM(HR), it was just after the 5th pay commission wage revision. I joined IT industry at almost the same pay, but around 4 years later, the income tax i was paying was equal to the take home salary in the steel sector PSU i had quit in 2002.

But after the 6th pay commission, i compared with my colleagues who were DGMs and GMs, and their pay was nearly 80% of mine around 4
years back. All of them retired recently with a CTC of 30 lakhs, which is by no means a low salary. So things are not as bad in Govt sector as they were around 2 decades ago.

But the most recent reports from Steel PSU's state that they are into severe recession, and are contemplating paying only basic pay to officers.

Coming back to the OP, I appreciate the narration of Selfdrive. I am really glad he found something to sustain his livelihood.

I went through a similar experience in 2015, after working 9 years in a renowned MNC. But they gave a very good severance package, and also an offer to take up an alternate position within the company. As I had less than 2 years of service left, and they were paying me for a year as a part of the package, i took the plunge. But after a few months, I started getting bored and worried about how long my corpus will last. My son was working and my daughter had just completed her CA and joined an MNC.

But boredom got the better of me. I also had to incur expenses on both their weddings. So i started scouting for jobs. Though there was a good demand for my skillset, almost all companies were shying away from hiring a person in his late 50s---a hard reality for other folks in IT to note.

I was lucky to get a few training programs by Oracle University that kept me engaged for nearly 3 months in the next one year. Then after a gap of a year and 2 months, I was contacted by my boss's boss in the US (an American), who had joined another company. He told me upfront that as it was a client-facing role, I'd have to overlap majorly with US hours. As I had nothing to lose, I agreed and we both reached an agreement that I'd work up to 1230 am, starting my shift at 330 pm. He promised to try his best to offer me the best compensation as possible, and finally I got an offer that was around 90% of my CTC.

I've completed 2.5 years now, and doing great. My retirement at age 60 is 2 months away, and the same US boss wants to extend my service for a year at least. I'm glad I made my move, but I could do it as I had no liabilities.

Long story short, be prepared for upheavals in your career. Even govt jobs are not that secure as perceived---imagine being paid only basic pay till steel recession ends. Also imagine being paid 14 days late--it happened in Vizag Steel last month, where officers were paid on Aug 14th instead of 1st. Also the misnomer that govt jobs are secure does not hold water if one takes into account the frustration that creeps in owing to office politics, and a work atmosphere that could sometimes be termed sadistic.

sibi6613 2nd September 2019 18:37

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMCE (Post 4648554)
A few I can give having gone through the same experience as the person who started this thread

All this does not mean that you have to start living like a hermit. Enjoy life but it is never too early to start being disciplined.

Thank you so much for writing a detailed response. I'm sure I'll be incorporating these habits into my life.

I have already started saving. 50% of my monthly income goes into savings. This is a target that I've set for myself to religiously follow. It has been working well so far but I've been missing a few 'good to have' things. But I guess it is worth it in the long run.

Thanks again for your inputs. Good luck!

selfdrive 3rd September 2019 06:54

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 4649731)
Knowing the law also helps employer to avoid situations that can end up in the courts. All their HR processes are designed to achieve that goal.

There is no doubt that one should follow the law. But in my limited understanding, the law states the bare minimum to be done. Something similar to minimum wages. That does not mean the company should pay only minimum wages and nothing higher. Similarly of some companies are handling layoffs in a particular way, people who are stuck in such situations expect partial if not complete parity with market standards.

I hope the example or the way I articulate does not take away from my expectation that HR can and should do better than what the law states. After all, they are supposed to be human resources, not only limited to legal compliance? Harsh business decisions need to be taken for sure, but the root cause of such decisions need to be addressed and resolved. I am not looking for sugar coating of such layoffs, but these have massive impact on the employee (and their family) in terms of standard of living and overall psychological/ emotional aspects. None of which are considered or handled. Just because the law does not state so explicitly does not (again in my humble opinion) absolve HR of how insensitively they approach such cases.

Even though I found another job, I had to compromise on multiple personal aspects such as living away from family, moving away from home etc. In such a situation, I find that I constantly keep looking at the imaginary sword hanging over my head. It is not a pleasant situation to be in, if they would have handled this better I would not be left to my own devices to figure out how to handle it. I assumed I was dealing with professionals, perhaps this was the expectation area where I went way off the mark.

am1m 3rd September 2019 10:00

Re: My experience of getting fired!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by selfdrive (Post 4649973)
I assumed I was dealing with professionals, perhaps this was the expectation area where I went way off the mark.

I think it is best to keep expectations realistic. Even if your individual HR person wants to do the right thing, very often they are hamstrung by company policy and by the legal department. For most senior executives above a certain level, we're just numbers on a spreadsheet. There may be the odd exception here and there, but they will take decisions based on numbers, nothing more, nothing less.

I think I was very lucky that I got to see all of the downsides of the IT industry during my first job itself. During my first two years on the job (during the dot-com bust), I saw salaries being delayed by up to half a month for several months, saw the HR head shamelessly stand in front of the entire team and give a nice speech about 'trusting the leadership' and then promptly jumping to a different company himself! Then saw half the team simply let go one afternoon. Accompanied the sales guys when they literally went around from client to client persuading them to pay us what was due for past projects so we could pay salaries that month. Also saw some good guys in upper management who agreed to take pay cuts so the rest of the team could get their entire salaries.

In hindsight, I think seeing all that early in my career, my mind got set to be cautious about saving and being at least somewhat mentally prepared to be laid off at any stage.


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