[Samurai]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

There is no doubt that one should follow the law. But in my limited understanding, the law states the bare minimum to be done. Something similar to minimum wages. That does not mean the company should pay only minimum wages and nothing higher.

Lot to unpack here...

First of all, why are you assuming that law mandates only basic minimum stuff? As V.Narayan pointed out in his post, the Indian labour laws are highly favorable to employee and puts lots of burden on the employers. For example, every employer (with at least 10 employees) has to give 6 months paid maternity leave. In comparison, USA has no such law at federal level, few states have it, but nothing close to India.

The Indian labour laws mandate so much employee protection, that many smaller employers find it cheaper to bribe the labour officers to overlook violations than follow the law. I was personally told by the labour officer not to bother spending so much on complying with every law, instead pay him a monthly fee that will be lot cheaper. I refused and got into trouble with that officer. He started writing out violation on every silly thing and I had to become the most labour law compliant company in the district.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

I hope the example or the way I articulate does not take away from my expectation that HR can and should do better than what the law states. After all, they are supposed to be human resources, not only limited to legal compliance?

By the time employer meets all the legal requirements, they will be neck deep in expenses. There are 3 things that drive the HR policy:

1) Legal requirements: Violations can get the company into deep trouble.
2) Demand & Supply: If the employee market has less supply and more demand, each employer will go above and beyond legal requirements to attract the right talent.
3) HR standards of MNCs: MNCs operating in India, often follow HR standards of the parent company, which exceed Indian legal requirements. The HQ of these companies usually is in one of the countries where labour laws are very strong.

What about corporate ethics? BTW, don't mistake it with empathy which you are expecting them to have. Ethics is the branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct. Empathy is the experience of understanding another person's condition from their perspective. You place yourself in their shoes and feel what they are feeling. Unlike empathy, ethics can be defined as a set of rules.

Company ethics are set by the management. To go anything above that is dictated by the 3 reasons given above, it is the prerogative of the management. Now remember, ethics cost money. If the higher ethical standards set by the management hurt/slowdown the profitability, then shareholders will step in and install a more "practical" management that will reduce the ethical standards. In other words, unless the management team is really strong (enough to override shareholders wishes), they cannot go beyond what is dictated by the 3 reasons I stated above.

[alpha1]

Selfdrive, good to know man that you made it out of the difficult situation.
I can only imagine the mental stress you would've undergone.

All I can do is to wish for you in due course whatever compromise you made on personal front (distance from your family) also gets diluted.

Originally Posted by am1m

saw the HR head shamelessly stand in front of the entire team and give a nice speech about 'trusting the leadership' and then promptly jumping to a different company himself! Then saw half the team simply let go one afternoon.

Kind of echoes the point I made earlier about information asymmetry: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/inter...ml#post4585736 (What happens to a factory town when a car factory shuts down?)

[speedmiester]

And on the topic of Labour laws and improper termination in India.
IT employees in Hyderabad files cases against their employers citing long working hours, inadequate leave policy.
Court has asked the firms to respond on this petition

This will be interesting and will set precedent for a lot more cases

IT -employees-file-case-against-accenture-cognizant-for-long-work-hours-leave-policy-court-responds/

[am1m]

Originally Posted by speedmiester

IT employees in Hyderabad files cases against their employers citing long working hours, inadequate leave policy.

Normally when I read about disputes between employees and management/big corporations, my sympathies are with the employees. But having worked in the IT industry for almost 20 years now, including a stint in Hyderabad (though not at the companies mentioned in the report), am finding it hard to understand this case.

Like any other employee, I too complain and rant (mainly about the commute to work), and there has been the odd bad experience, but at every company I've worked at, I've always found the working conditions in the IT industry so overwhelmingly positive and good, that I don't think the same labour laws should apply to us, as in the case of say, a garment factory employee. [Am no expert in either industrial labour or the law, so more informed members may want to correct me.]

I'm sure there are real issues IT employees face, but I mean, I think we really have it good when compared to so many other industries in the country.

[speedmiester]

Originally Posted by am1m

I'm sure there are real issues IT employees face, but I mean, I think we really have it good when compared to so many other industries in the country.

True, it's not an Apple to Apple comparison between different industries.
I think there are vested interests behind such cases.
Hopefully this should blow over soon.

At the same time, organisations should also implement better policies towards termination, long working hours, employee benefits. Everyone understands that all businesses are cyclical, but there are better ways to handle termination rather than force the employees to resign.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by Samurai

What about corporate ethics? BTW, don't mistake it with empathy which you are expecting them to have.

Unfortunately, I could not reply earlier as I was caught up with work travel. You have diagnosed it correctly where you say that I possibly expected empathy. My glasses are perhaps rose tinted in having such expectations in the first place. But now that I have gone through this bumpy ride, I would not expect any assistance even at a bare minimum level.
I am still nonplussed about why companies cannot try to target for best practices in such areas too. They do not/ did not hesitate to do so when trying to be in the second/ third quadrant when following lower common denominators for travel policies/ annual hikes/ other expense policies etc.

As mentioned by many others, its a rude awakening. It does not make me any more a pessimist than I already am. But at the same time, it will help me be wary of the pitfalls that could be anywhere around the corner.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by speedmiester

And on the topic of Labour laws and improper termination in India.
IT employees in Hyderabad files cases against their employers citing long working hours, inadequate leave policy.
Court has asked the firms to respond on this petition

This will be interesting and will set precedent for a lot more cases

IT -employees-file-case-against-accenture-cognizant-for-long-work-hours-leave-policy-court-responds/

If I were an IT company I'd shift to Vietnam, Philippines etc. The Labour Laws in general do not apply to graduates and above which I assume most IT employees are. I doubt Cognizant and Accenture or any other half reputed employer denies an employee leave on account of illness. The way the news item is written it seems to insinuate that guys are getting less sick leave than entitled. If the IT employees want to be treated at par with industrial labour then at some point wages will end up getting lowered. Nothing comes for free. It will be interesting what comes out of this case. If the High Court adopts a (typical in India) pro-Labour anti-Employer stand then gradually Hyderabad will cease to be as significant an IT hub as it is now.

While this thread has been largely about employees expressing their legitimate concerns about getting sacked allow me to share the view from the other side of the desk. I speak here as an erstwhile owner of a medium-sized business. On the many occasions I have had to take a call to terminate an employee other than reasons of integrity or gross mis-behaviour or threat to form unions it has always but always been that the employee's salary is too high compared to his contribution/potential to contribute when economic ill winds are blasting the company. Our's was an industry where in times of plenty skilled resources with the right international licenses were short and many overdid themselves to negotiate wages upwards often with bad manners and lack of grace. As mentioned elsewhere I always advised them not to do that as the tide could turn. But who believes a business owner when the graph is going up and up and up. And sure enough when cold winds blew, those over paid employees were the first to be asked to go. Interestingly I cannot recall a single women employee who allowed herself to get overpaid and hence sacked. It was the men pilots and engineers whose egos would become bigger than themselves. In fact other than 1 case in 2006 which was around gross mis-behaviour I never needed to terminate a women.

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by Samurai

In other words, unless the management team is really strong (enough to override shareholders wishes), they cannot go beyond what is dictated by the 3 reasons I stated above.

Any examples of Indian companies (especially from those that are listed and outside IT) exhibiting strong management willpower?

PS: @Samurai I am a great fan of your writing and clear way of explaining things. I see it in the 4X4 threads, the thread on economy and this. Just wanted to compliment you on your clear logical way of writing.

[huntrz]

Hey Selfdrive, Thanks for sharing your experience. I can totally relate to your emotions and thought process. Successfully negotiating through tough times is hard but whats more commendable that you chose to share your experience with all your feelings and fears intact and that too with a dash of humor. Your experience will definitely make all of us richer.

[yogeshsom29]

Many congratulations of getting a new job without going through the ordeal for long. Have been through it exactly a decade ago & can relate to everything you said selfdrive, but in the hindsight I feel that is one of the best things that happened to me. Let me narrate; pls bear for the long post & by no means i am hijacking your thread.

Was about to start drive back home post work with friends I use to carpool with when I read the sms; I was asked to leave on an sms (epitome of insensitivity)

Was lost for sometime & did not even discuss with them, just told them that I have to make some calls & under that pretext tried to gather myself. After 15 mins told them what had happened & ofcourse they took wheel from me & were encouraging throughout the 2 hour commute.

I did not have any liability as such but was 80% breadwinner for the family which was very concerning & was not earning well enough to save anything substantial (By no means I use to splurge, was genuinely on a low payscale)

Three months went by before I got a new job but family & friends stood rock solid throughout that difficult time; we did cut lot of corners in everyday living but no one complained.

Why do I feel that it was best thing happened to me: Today I am a reasonably respected professional in the industry I work in with some laurels that anyone can be proud off & decently placed socially, financially, professionally & all because of that lay off; let me explain.

I came out on the right side of it, got to know who are the people in life that will stand by through thick & thin, got time to introspect & actually took charge of my career post that.

Best was, got into the habit of reading; was pushed by wife to read a book, The Secret & did affirmative & visualizations exercises. (When pushed to the wall, you start doing things that you never believed in). I did start feeling well, confidence grew & I attribute some part of getting back on feet to that book.

Post that; have read over 100’s of books (non fiction) & it has become one of my best pass times – have enriched me beyond limits & today I am contemplating writing a book of my own

Key learning's as a professional.

• While job market is cruel but not as much if you constantly upskill yourself to stay relevant with times – Age is just a number – in last 10 years I have studied much more than I did in my actual schooling years & have added over a dozen certifications from renowned institutions which has help me stay ahead of the curve

• Power of networking – It’s one thing to not burn bridges but completely different thing to build more bridges. Constantly network with people in the area of your work, it enriches you as well keeps to well updated on happenings around plus you get lot of mentors.

• Focused image management on social media platforms – Not having a presence is more dangerous (It’s like no financial history impacts your CIBIL score negatively). You must be present across major social sites today as head hunters search your social media history to see how do you fit in the value systems of the company before offering which essentially means have a clean image (Better to avoid postings Your Friday nights flings updates). Have a curated image there which is more in line with your professional requirements.

• Financially speaking , build an emergency fund that can help you sustain for min 6 months without a drop in your lifestyle

• Adopt a hobby that can be monetized when that longish doom period comes – basically a skill based hobby that can fetch you atleast something whilst still keeping you occupied. This can be a great long term investment when you retire, start doing this & make some bucks as well

• While investment is a different topic but there is one golden statement that can help you tide over difficult times is “Invest on upgrading Yourself starting today”

As far as HR’s are concerned, I am one & very proud to be one. Often HR’s are in line of fire to implement management decisions; pls note that whatever affects you as in employee affects the HR also.

I’ve also fired people but my ratio of hire to fire is 1000:1 & hence I am happy as I have given more jobs then taken away.

I agree to the fact the most basic competency an HR professional should have is sensitivity & I am grateful to almighty that I have lived this value while implementing any difficult decision.

I have helped fired people get jobs outside through my circle & ensured to make this ordeal as less painful as possible.

Only people I deal with 0 sensitivity are the ones who are fired on the grounds of integrity; that is one of the closest value to me; so no compromises there.

Thank you again for sharing your experience, Wish you & everyone most & More

[humyum]

This thread brought back so many recent memories that I typed a reply and did not post because the post was so darn emotional.

After slogging my behind out for 3 years on this project of an android media streaming box, the higher management sitting in Hong Kong, suddenly decided to pull the plug on us. I had literally given it my day and night and the box, launcher, its features, the app, look and feel, everything was just perfect and ready for market to lap it on, but they lost the patience for it to gain momentum and one day told the heads of our team, shut down the servers.

There were 5 of us handling this project, the VP, Product Head, Me the Product Manager, Sales Head and one more guy in the sales team. The VP left 15 days after this news, the guy under the sales head was told you have till march in this company, so start searching, the product head was told he will be heading other TV based projects, the sales head was told, he had to leave soon too, this just left me without a direction, whom no one spoke to about anything. I kept working on developing an offline launcher for the hardware inventory that was left with us as without the servers on, the boxes had to still sell but without the company's content being featured on the box.

This was the first time I was facing such a situation in life, I would get sleepless nights, always be irritable, be worried when the empire would strike on my head. I spent entire January like this. Come February first week, the Product Head was called and told he had 2 months, that day they still did not talk to me about my future.

Next day, I got called from the HR and the Finance Head (Same person both) and after a customary chit chat of how amazing I had been, he gave me the bad news and put down a typed resignation letter in front of me, asking me to sign it. I was taken aback as I thought I had to type it myself and send but No Sir, this was how it was going to be. The person I had grown to respect over these years in the company had suddenly just put a letter in front and asked me to sign like I had no other option. I had 2 more months to work in this company and then it was a Sayonara

I signed, I was promised a measly 3 weeks of extra pay, 1 week pay for each year worked, My PLI would be disbursed in full when everyone's would be given out. The entire HR machinery of the company would help me find a job using all the contacts they have in the industry, I could attend any interview I wanted and not come to work while going for interviews.

The HR manager lady had become my friend as she used to sit behind me and over the years we had a lot of chit chats and conversations as we both used to come early and leave late together. She tried to talk the management into not letting me go as I was the only one in the entire company after my boss who knew about TV projects and they could put me in charge of getting some of them done, but they had none of it. I had tears in my eyes when she and me were speaking about what the HR head had told and she had tears in her eyes too. Sitting near to each other for years and for 12 hours plus a day, does this to you, you get attached to people, the place, everything!

Anyway, she would sit with me everyday for 1 hour, put all her contacts to use and get me interviews. She got me in touch with all the head hunters, HR heads and who's who in the media industry for me to get interviews. I got many but they were not hiring until they got budgets after March and I could never tell them the situation I was in as that would mean they would run me dry when it came to the salary.

One and half months went and all I got was replies with 'We will get back to you', I had attended so many interviews that by then I knew what the questions were going to be asked and what answers were going to come from me. 1 week left till D day and still nothing, until I got one more interview call and within 4 days the job was mine, it was also in the same field that I had worked on for 3 + years in the company I was leaving.

I asked for a joining date which was one month later as all this job hunting for 2 months had stressed me out beyond belief. I would get night terrors sometimes because of all the stress and that simply had never happened in all my life. Took a 15 day long vacation to Junagadh, explored a lot of places, went to Bangalore for a couple of days, ate good food, had a merry time and rest of the days just slept at home like a log waiting for the new mission to start.

This was such a turning point in my chapter that I realized that anything can happen anytime. We are mere puppets in this entire job scene. I had never looked for a job while I was at this company, I could have got a brilliant hike if I had moved on after 2 years as the project I worked on, has quite a lot of upcoming value in India, but I still had a sense of loyalty towards the company and my project, but the company the moment it had to make a decision, it did not look left or right, just started the throwing out exercise, I could have worked on their android/apple apps portfolio too, but nope.

Thank you sharing your experience, it made me share mine and get it out of my head.

[subraiyr]

Originally Posted by speedmiester

And on the topic of Labour laws and improper termination in India.
IT employees in Hyderabad files cases against their employers citing long working hours, inadequate leave policy.
Court has asked the firms to respond on this petition

This will be interesting and will set precedent for a lot more cases

IT -employees-file-case-against-accenture-cognizant-for-long-work-hours-leave-policy-court-responds/

Me thinks this is a big joke.

1. Somewhere in the article, it alludes to travel in company provided transportation for 4 to 5 hours. Is the employee including that it his long hours of work. Some of the employees i talk to speak about longer travel and how because of that they end up spending 10 to 12 hours away from family. Don't get me wrong, but if you wanted an 8 hour job search for it in your neighborhood and don't look for brand names which are a bit away and try to build your resume. I don't see this form of company transportation provided in developed nations for sure. This is an extra cost for the firm + the burden of managing logistics and safety can be daunting. In my previous firm, i effected a policy change on this and it translated to nearly a 3% cut in SGA expenditures
2. Long Hours - Please, let us not even speak about long hours. We and by this i mean Indians are as much at fault here. A typical day at an IT firm starts with employee coming in at 9am, leaving his desk at 1030am for a coffee break which extends till 11:15am and then back for a lunch break at anywhere between 1:30 to 3pm for at least an hour and another coffee break at 4pm for another 45 mts and then he leaves for home at 6pm because he will miss his transport. In my working with these kind of principles i have seen that productivity falls to about 4.3hours only compared to a similar excercise done in Europe, NA, Canada, Argentina and SE Asia where productivity is around the 6.8 hour mark. So less said the better on long work hours.
3. Added to this is the group chats, the social media usage which eats into your productive time and you end up giving lesser and lesser. And then you ask for Over Time !!!!
4. We did an experiment with some of our teams using a system audit tool and found that on an average people end up spending 1.75 hours on social media at Office. Now that is telling a lot about productivity

This is outside of the topic of reference, but i feel that we should acknowledge the fact that we are dismal when it comes to productive time esp in the IT/ITES sectors.

I do admire Selfdrive's persistence in managing the issue and coming out of it. As economy plummets such situations are bound to happen and one should be geared up for such an eventuality. But let that not be your driving force. I think the most important part is to enjoy your profession. I am not giving any tips as there are more than enough that has already been said.

Good luck to all out there and hang in tight. As Dylan said, The times they are changing

[lejhoom]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

To everyone working in the private sector, understand that your job is never permanant. Keep enhancing your skills and keep your finances in-order. I don't agree to the debt-free school of thought. If done properly, debt can be beneficial. Same with Credit Cards. And most importantly, prepare yourself and your near and dear ones about the eventuality so that it doesn't come as a shock. Job loss is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, unless the economy is in the middle of a recession, many companies would be willing to hire a person who is ready to join immediately instead of waiting for 3 months and then have the candidate disappear.

I haven't worked in an IT form nor at an MNC. However, I can recall a narration by one of the junior employees of a well-known IT company on Raj Bhavan Road, Hyderabad, a couple of hours after a massive lay off was effected. Several mid to senior managers (some with more than 12 years experience in the company) were fired. They were called into the conference hall for an urgent meeting in an afternoon. Waiting in the hall were HR personnel along with some security guys and even a doctor. Outside an ambulance was sitting adjacent to a row of cars, usually used for ferrying employees. Once everyone was assembled, they were asked to surrender their IDs and were bluntly told to sign on the dotted lines. I guess they had little choice considering the prospect of forfeiting their emoluments. After the operation, each was escorted to a car and was sent off home along with their personal belongings lying at their desks in a carton. At one fell swoop the clinical operation was completed within a couple of hours.

[yogesa]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

.

During my last week at work, the HR .....

"Do you need anything else? I do not have time.
I am looking online to order a specific doll for my daughter."

I loved this part

Dont identify yourself with your Job/employment.
Your personality is different and Job is not the whole Life.
Always have a strong network, and stay connected with them for no reason at all.
Always help someone in need, without expectations.
The Universe send someone to help you, when you need it.
Always be positive. Look away from the Closed Door and look for open doors.

More Power to you and the friends /wellwishers who helped you.
Cheers!

[sdp1975]

Originally Posted by speedmiester

And on the topic of Labour laws and improper termination in India.
IT employees in Hyderabad files cases against their employers citing long working hours, inadequate leave policy.
Court has asked the firms to respond on this petition

This will be interesting and will set precedent for a lot more cases

IT -employees-file-case-against-accenture-cognizant-for-long-work-hours-leave-policy-court-responds/

I read a report today about a former Cognizant Indian COO paying $50K fine in a bribery case. The bribe was paid to facilitate building a campus in Chennai, and the Cognizant president and chief legal officer had asked their subordinates to doctor documents.

Source

So much for corporate ethics. After reading this, I'm not too surprised at reports of alleged labour law violation by these companies.