['72 Bullet]

I don't know how many of you bothered to read the articles linked in the opening post. This statement in the article by The Guardian puts things into perspective.



"The new research shows that without meat and dairy consumption, global farmland use could be reduced by more than 75% – an area equivalent to the US, China, European Union and Australia combined – and still feed the world."


And the article - https://www.theguardian.com/environm...mpact-on-earth

[DCEite]

The question is not really if Meat/Beef production is harmful to the environment or not. No one would disagree with this well known fact.

The question is that can meat/beef be given up ? In a country like India, once could still imagine it, because we have a vast of vegetarian food options, but what about places like Europe or Middle east ? The meat is part of their diets since ages and it would be foolish to even think that the EU or ME can give up meat as part of their diet.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by DCEite

The question is not really if Meat/Beef production is harmful to the environment or not. No one would disagree with this well known fact.

The question is that can meat/beef be given up ? In a country like India, once could still imagine it, because we have a vast of vegetarian food options, but what about places like Europe or Middle east ? The meat is part of their diets since ages and it would be foolish to even think that the EU or ME can give up meat as part of their diet.

I don't know about how things are in the Middle East, but a lot of people in Europe are conscious of the effects of industrial farming and are cutting down on consumption.

Meat consumption in Europe increased massively in the latter half of the 1900s. Before that it was just too expensive for the common man and was eaten sparingly. It is only in recent times that people eat large amounts of meat, 3 times a day.

A friend from Germany told me that while growing up, they ate meat just once a week and that too was two sausages shared amongst a family of 2 adults and 4 children. People ate a lot more seasonal and locally grown food then. Also, this was in wealthy Western Germany, other parts of europe meat must have been even more of a luxury.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

I don' Middle East, but a lot of people in Europe athe effects of industrial are cutting down on consumption.

Meat consumption in Europe increased massively in the latter just too expensive for the common man and was eaten sparingly. It is only in recent times that people eat large amounts of meat, 3 times a day.

A frGermany told me that while growing up, they ate meat just once a week and that too was two sausages shared amongst a family of 2 adults and 4 children. People ate a lot more seasonal and locally grown food then. Also, this was in wealthy Western Germany, other parts of europe meat must have been even more of a luxury.

I think your post makes a lot of sense.
Yes the Middle East (in my observation) which used to be frugal and realistic a while ago, has suddenly become both wasteful and ostentatious on their food habits. But they eat largely lamb and grilled. So it is healthy. Though a large portion of their luxury meats are all completely imported but this is mostly meant for the business visitors on expense account and tourists on holiday spends.

The Europeans - yes Meat was an expensive thing right through. It is only in the last decade or two that people have loosened up a bit on their eating. But they (especially the rural people) have always preferred seasonal and local. Which is very healthy.

America has largely been the culprit with wasteful consumption - though of late - last 5-6 years, things have changed a lot there as well.

[ajmat]

Another thing is the waste generated, Based on my experience.

US - they serve excessive portions - Doggy bags are offered but when you are focussed on a date, you really are focussed on after dinner than next day lunch

Uk/Europe - They serve just enough.

India - For events, you plan for 1000, you over order to avoid looking small and 750 appear. if you restrict to a specific event list complete with RSVP, you are branded as aloof!

China - you keep ordering so much variety for your guests and the portions are large as you do not want to disappoint your guests who also will feel too proud to take a doggy bag when proffered (how ever when we take our junior colleagues out - they mopped up the leftovers

[digitalnirvana]

@ajmat that's a good summary. In Europe food portions are decent and manageable.

My friend in the US says one full portion there is often sufficient for two. He takes a go-to bag and often donates to the homeless instead of throwing food away.

On that topic, the food waste in China is absolutely mind boggling. Perhaps its because an entire generation of millions have been lifted out of poverty so quickly. Perhaps its something ingrained in their psyche. I read lots of anecdotes about western restaurants stopping their all-you-can-eat buffets in China because of the sheer wastage of food.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

The Europeans - yes Meat was an expensive thing right through. It is only in the last decade or two that people have loosened up a bit on their eating. But they (especially the rural people) have always preferred seasonal and local. Which is very healthy.
.

Make that the last 4-5 decades. Even in the 60’s meat consumption in what was then Europe was only trailing 20% behind the USA. By the 80’s, so 4 decades ago, most of Europe was getting pretty close to the top meat consumers in the world.

Meat is relatively cheap, and you need to think beyond traditional beef and pork of course. E.g. horse meat, chicken, lamb etc

Jeroen

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

How many of you are open to rearing your own (no farm labor) cattle, chicken, and goat and killing them 'yourself' (no farm labor) for food? Which means you do all processing farm to table (or rather embryo to your gut).

I don't think I could do it at this stage in my life. But if I was raised in a household where it was part of normal life, am pretty sure I would have no issues doing it.

Case in point, my mom and my in-laws have no issues killing and preparing chicken when they are at their hometowns (of course, in the city, they buy from a cold storage), because during our grandparents time, each house raised their own livestock.

Just depends on how one is raised.

[shankar.balan]

When we were small, growing up in the hilly regions of Southern India, I can clearly remember till date (in lip-smacking 4D as it were), the wonderful taste of simple food like different veggies, fruits, eggs, chicken, just plain milk and home butter - because we grew much of this in our own garden and raised the livestock in and around the house and on the estate. I know what feed those chickens were getting - and I knew they were never caged but “penned up in the evenings” in a large enclosure (mostly for their own safety from predatory foxes and jackals and of course, my own naughty Alsatian children).

I know also the quality of fodder our cows and calves were getting with all that oil cake and cotton seed and all.

In one of the “hill stations”, there was even a Company owned and run Piggery which bred both Yorkshire and Berkshires and their descendants, in most hygienic conditions. The quality of meat output was first class.

The animals were cared for properly. The food was grown cleanly. There was space. There was less pressure on the land in terms of the people occupying it and being fed from it.

Naturally, things were better!

Today, we have far greater economic purchasing power and the population that needs to be sustained is far far greater, hence we are subject to the pressures of terrible over production, over merchandising, over pricing, over serving and over wastage.

It’s terrible. But I m thinking, that some of us, in our own lifetimes, may see far greater pressures on “good” food and the rise of terrible “ill health”.

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Just as a social experiment:

How many of you are open to rearing your own (no farm labor) cattle, chicken, and goat and killing them 'yourself' (no farm labor) for food? Which means you do all processing farm to table (or rather embryo to your gut).

OR going out hunting for your own food? You can choose either or a combination. No problem. Just give your reasons.

Please remember the above will be your full time occupation and will probably consume the greater part of your day to ensure food on the table throughout the year.

It will not be a business to resell poultry or beef. Only self consumption.

Lets forget about whether your current conditions allow it or not, this is more psychological.

It will be very interesting to see your responses.

Once we compile a few, I will share something very thought provoking.

I feel that, in order to make the social experiment complete, you should also add that any food (meat, non-meat alike) should be either gathered or grown your self. Which means it will also be no business to sell any type of food in the market meat/vegetables/fruits/grain whatever.

In the above scenario I would believe majority will have no qualms of killing and eating their meat as the moral angle gets subdued a bit. Ofcourse killing bigger animals will need a coordinated effort from more than one person.

Humans thrived world over because we were Omnivores. If forced, we will always go back to the basic nature.

Killing animals for food becomes a chore only if you bring the moral aspect to it. For me, I am very clear on that front. As a human being I am an omnivore. For me it is food. Yes I stand for ethical treatment of livestock. But that is a separate issue. Chicken, mutton, beef etc is still my food and there is no moral attached to it.

Just like the Tiger that hunts and kills to eat is not the villain that popular folklore would want it to be!

[Miyata]

In a related news, a study has some perspectives to add -

"High carbon footprint families identified by sweets and restaurant food, not higher meat consumption."

Families with higher carbon footprints are likely to consume more confectionary, alcohol and restaurant food.

If we are serious about reducing our carbon footprints, then our diets must change. Our findings suggest that high carbon footprints are not only a problem for a small number of meat lovers in Japan. It might be better to target less nutritious foods that are excessively consumed in some populations.

['72 Bullet]

Originally Posted by Miyata

In a related news, a study has some perspectives to add -

"High carbon footprint families identified by sweets and restaurant food, not higher meat consumption."

"Using a life-cycle approach which details food supply chains around the country, they found that meat consumption was relatively constant per household—but carbon footprints were not."

The thing is, they didn't really compare households that consumed meat versus those that didn't. I assume the conclusion would probably be a bit different if they did.

"Kanemoto does, however, recommend eating less meat to reduce a household's environmental impact. "Meat is a high carbon footprint food. Replacing red meat consumption with white meat and vegetables will lower a family's carbon footprint," he said."

[Red Liner]

I recently watched a vice documentary of a guy living in the Alaskan reserve for the past 30 years or something (white guy) and raised a family with two daughters right there (married an indigenous woman). His take on meat eating was very eye opening and thought provoking.

https://youtu.be/Iq0rZn8HFmQ