[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by DCEite

Another flip flop from W.H.O:

https://indianexpress.com/article/co...ancet-6441507/

This is not just a minor 'flip flop' but a yet another egg on the face of WHO. The Lancet study on HCQ was based on dubious data from a shady company called Surgisphere. Few surprising facts (Source) about Surgisphere and the data :

One would expect a multinational database such as this to be a treasure trove coveted by researchers. Strangely, this is not so. Surgisphere has a razor thin folder of contributions to past publications.

According to LinkedIn, Surgisphere has five employees, only one of which has a medical degree—the founder Dr. Sapan Desai. The remaining four employees appear to have little to no science or medical background..

With the exception of the founder, the entire Surgisphere team joined the corporation only 2-3 months ago.

Not only does Surgisphere omit which hospitals supposedly contributed, but they will not even specify the contributing countries. Instead, they categorize hospitals and patient numbers by continent. Notably, the larger the pool of data, the easier it is to obfuscate false data.

... the number of COVID-19 deaths included in the Lancet study for Australia exceeded the total nationally recorded number of COVID-19 deaths.

And so on and so forth. Please read this concise article how WHO was shockingly conned.

HCQ is NOT yet a proven drug against Covid-19, but it is a cheap generic available in plenty; If it is proved to be effective that would be huge losses for patented drugs of big pharma. It is obvious to me whose interests are being served by WHO and its dubious recommendations.

ps - Just because HCQ is being promoted by Trump, HCQ has become a political rather than a science subject. So many people desperately want HCQ to fail . Have seen CNN anchors badgering doctors and experts, to give unfavorable opinion on HCQ.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by DCEite

Another flip flop from W.H.O:

Just another episode in the continuing saga of HCQ,

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

This is not just a minor 'flip flop' but a yet another egg on the face of WHO. The Lancet study on HCQ was based on dubious data from a shady company called Surgisphere.

Never trust companies with silly-sounding made-up names!

HCQ is NOT yet a proven drug against Covid-19, but it is a cheap generic available in plenty; If it is proved to be effective that would be huge losses for patented drugs of big pharma. It is obvious to me whose interests are being served by WHO and its dubious recommendations.

I think there are two possible bonus possibilities in getting potential drugs concentrated on: 1) that is cheap and will save lots of money and 2)that it is expensive and will make someone lots of money.

ps - Just because HCQ is being promoted by Trump, HCQ has become a political rather than a science subject. So many people desperately want HCQ to fail .

Naah... I'm just desperate for anything to be a success, whether vaccine, treatment, whatever. And I want it to be affordable.

Trump hasn't put me off HCQ any more than he has put me off Lysol (at least, for washing the floor with) but it may turn out that its cheapness appeal has caused too many people to waste too much time on it.

[BoneCollector]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

This is not just a minor 'flip flop' but a yet another egg on the face of WHO. The Lancet study on HCQ was based on dubious data from a shady company called Surgisphere.

Excerpts from an article published in The Guardian.

A Guardian investigation can reveal the US-based company Surgisphere, whose handful of employees appear to include a science fiction writer and an adult-content model, has provided data for multiple studies on Covid-19 co-authored by its chief executive, but has so far failed to adequately explain its data or methodology.

This study on which so many things were based is a farce in itself.

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

HCQ is NOT yet a proven drug against Covid-19, but it is a cheap generic available in plenty; If it is proved to be effective that would be huge losses for patented drugs of big pharma. It is obvious to me whose interests are being served by WHO and its dubious recommendations.

I prescribe HCQs to so many patients of mine who suffer from Rheumatoid Arthritis. They're in age group of 30 to 75 years of age. I have not yet come across any of the so called dreaded side effects. It's a very economical and a safe drug. Moreover, in my part of country, we have ourselves consumed Quinine and it's derivatives for malaria as prophylaxis that I don't remember. If this drug is effective even little bit in decreasing the effects of the Coronavirus, it's a huge impact on medical field. And yes, it'll be a blow to the vaccine as well as other lobbies.

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Just because HCQ is being promoted by Trump, HCQ has become a political rather than a science subject.

Yes. That's for sure. It has been blown out of proportion.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Just another episode in the continuing saga of HCQ,

True. A good drug has been made a scapegoat and affordability of treatment has gone for a toss.

[abhi7013]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

I prescribe HCQs to so many patients of mine who suffer from Rheumatoid Arthritis. They're in age group of 30 to 75 years of age. I have not yet come across any of the so called dreaded side effects. It's a very economical and a safe drug.

Thankful to have come across your post. My granny has been taking HCQS for 8 years now without noticeable side effects. Certainly not like how its being portrayed in the media. I was anxious when i learnt of these side effects but with time and coming across more reliable sources of info like this for example, I've stopped thinking about it. I had actually asked her to stop taking the medicine but she hardly listens!

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

AP just came out with an unprecedented story on how China delayed information about the coronavirus and too WHO for a ride

This is just usual anti China propaganda. Does anyone honestly believe that India, US or Italy would have done any better? There is bound to be bureaucratic lethargy, various protocols with red tape and an obvious attempt to avoid damage to the economy as well as tourism sectors. In any case, it would have made no difference. By the time the Chinese realised it, the virus had already traveled around the world. What did the USA, Italy, Spain and the UK do after they learnt about this virus with China imposing a lockdown in Wuhan on Jan 23rd? What did we do in India? We all believed it was a problem in China. And quite rightly so too as we can't just panic and shut down anytime a virus emerges somewhere. After all Ebola remained mostly in Africa. Hence, no one would have done anything until it became an obvious problem and by then it would have been too late. If the Chinese had even somehow alerted the world in say November 2019, nothing would have been done until the example of the Italian crisis put some panic in the world. Even then the US remained open to travelers from the world. So blaming China is meaningless. Such epidemics always end up spreading one way or the other and it is human tendency to not worry about something until it becomes real right in our face. China was a victim like any other nation. Initially they had the most cases so people started passing the blame on to them but now so many countries have much higher figures. Why are we not blaming Italy or the US for spreading it?

[BoneCollector]

Originally Posted by abhi7013

Thankful to have come across your post. My granny has been taking HCQS for 8 years now without noticeable side effects.

Just because of so much hoopla around HCQs, I revisited a couple of books which were one of the Gold standards during our times (although one of latest editions that i have). And surprisingly, none of them mentioned much about any type of cardiac complications!

From Essentials of Medical Pharmacology by Dr. K. D. Tripathi.


From Davidson's Principles and Practice of Medicine.

The most dreaded complication is ophthalmic (eyes related) like retinal damage and corneal opacity. But best part is that it's reversible and less common with HCQs compared to Chloroquine. I advise my patients to undergo full ophthalmic checkup once every 6 months. But I have not come across any complication as yet.

I had actually asked her to stop taking the medicine but she hardly listens!

Please don't stop her from taking this. It's a drug which has the best effect with little dosing. The disease can hit hard if drug is stopped.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

This is just usual anti China propaganda. Does anyone honestly believe that India, US or Italy would have done any better? There is bound to be bureaucratic lethargy, various protocols with red tape and an obvious attempt to avoid damage to the economy as well as tourism sectors. In any case, it would have made no difference. By the time the Chinese realised it, the virus had already traveled around the world. What did the USA, Italy, Spain and the UK do after they learnt about this virus with China imposing a lockdown in Wuhan on Jan 23rd? What did we do in India? We all believed it was a problem in China. And quite rightly so too as we can't just panic and shut down anytime a virus emerges somewhere. After all Ebola remained mostly in Africa. Hence, no one would have done anything until it became an obvious problem and by then it would have been too late. If the Chinese had even somehow alerted the world in say November 2019, nothing would have been done until the example of the Italian crisis put some panic in the world. Even then the US remained open to travelers from the world. So blaming China is meaningless. Such epidemics always end up spreading one way or the other and it is human tendency to not worry about something until it becomes real right in our face. China was a victim like any other nation. Initially they had the most cases so people started passing the blame on to them but now so many countries have much higher figures. Why are we not blaming Italy or the US for spreading it?

That is a very naive way of looking at things. The Chinese ACTIVELY suppressed information as early as December. If the genome was sequenced in USA, Italy, UK or even India, it would have been published immediately and when the disease was first identified in other countries, they would have the genetic information to identify this Virus. The Chinese spent precious time trying to hide the Virus which if they hadn't done wouldn't have required a lockdown of Wuhan in the first place since they would only have had to isolate a handful of people or some containment zones - this is what Kerala did when the Nipah virus reemerged in the state recently. The Chinese criminally wasted crucial days during the Chinese New Year when millions of people travel back to their provinces just because they didn't want the world to know that a new disease had emerged in their "perfect country" and only accepted that they had a virus outbreak when the information had clearly leaked. Offcourse, the rest of the world still thought of it as a China problem which made them ill-prepared when the virus hit their shores but that doesn't acquit the Chinese.

It's like saying that the USSR shouldn't be held responsible for the Chernobyl disaster because reactors also failed in the US and Japan. But the difference is that the USSR like any authoritarian government tried to hide the incident which only made matters worse.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

Just because of so much hoopla around HCQs, I revisited a couple of books which were one of the Gold standards during our times (although one of latest editions that i have). And surprisingly, none of them mentioned much about any type of cardiac complications!

Thank you for sharing this.

~~~~~

While we spend time arguing across these threads whether China was upto hiding information or if the lockdown was a good decision or not, there are increasingly a number of reports coming like the one below of hospitalization mis-management, not the virus causing deaths. Cases that could have been saved.

turned-away-from-hospitals-my-father-in-laws-death-from-covid-shows-delhi-is-a-mess

I have read multiple similar threads on twitter and other social media of cases like these in Mumbai and Chennai. With multiple family members in 60+ age group and with pre-existing conditions, I can only keep worrying about them. I now hardly worry about my health at this point (purposely not living in the same city with them) and only worry if the above situation arrives with them in the picture.

Asking doctors on this forum, I wonder if there can be any steps that will help in the process of hospitalization in the likely scenario one of the seniors are affected?

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by princey

Could this be happening in India also ?
Can the virus lose potency over multiple mutations from one host to another ?
Could it be one of the reasons for decreasing mortality rates here ?

Can someone with sufficient knowledge shed light on the matter ?

Dr Milind Watve's take on this
https://milindwatve.home.blog/2020/0...herd-immunity/

To quote him:

I had said in an earlier blog article that the SARS Cov-2 virus responsible for the current pandemic is likely to evolve rapidly towards reduced virulence. The reason why I expect this is that on the one hand, almost all countries are implementing strict quarantine measures for all detected positive cases. But on the other hand, we cannot afford to do mass testing, leading to many undetected asymptomatic cases roaming around and spreading the virus. The virus reaches huge populations and also has a high mutation rate, so all possible variants will keep on arising. A virulent strain is most likely to cause severe infection which will invite testing and ultimately quarantine. A mild variant, on the other hand is more likely to lead to asymptomatic or mild symptomatic infections which are more likely to escape screening followed by quarantine and therefore keep on spreading. In several generations of the virus, which is a short time for us, natural selection will favour the mild variants.

[am1m]

Read in the news today that private hospitals are offering to treat asymptomatic cases for 5,200 a day for economically weaker patients. And the normal cost is 15,000 a day for treatment of asymptomatic cases or cases with mild symptoms.

Now naturally the costs will be pretty high taking in to consideration the use of PPE and additional precautions. Obviously am not a medical person, but with these high costs, the lack of hospital beds and overworked healthcare professionals, I am wondering why hospitals are proposing to treat asymptomatic cases at all?! And what is the treatment for an asymptomatic person anyway? Are asymptomatic persons themselves asking to be admitted because of all the panic?

Now I think it makes perfect sense to recommend that such cases go into home quarantine and recover. And I believe the government is coming around to that view too. Keep the medical facilities for serious cases that need help.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

By the time the Chinese realised it, the virus had already traveled around the world......China was a victim like any other nation. Initially they had the most cases so people started passing the blame on to them but now so many countries have much higher figures.

I always wonder why Beijing and Shanghai was not affected at all by Corona Virus?

Deaths in Beijing - 9; Shanghai - 7. Source

Did China allow people to travel from Wuhan to distant Italy and Spain but prohibited them from travelling to Shanghai/Beijing?

Did China know?

[AZT]

Originally Posted by am1m

Read in the news today that private hospitals are offering to treat asymptomatic cases for 5,200 a day for economically weaker patients. And the normal cost is 15,000 a day for treatment of asymptomatic cases or cases with mild symptoms.

I am wondering why hospitals are proposing to treat asymptomatic cases at all?!

This comes across as a form of comparative pricing where brands add a useless variant just to add the *starting from $ x* line. They will boast about how we are offering beds for 5200 for asymptomatic cases but as you said why would such patients even go to a hospital, even someone wanting to self quarantine may be better off not doing it at a hospital. The actual cost could go way above the 15 - 35k / day which hospitals have proposed.

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

Just because of so much hoopla around HCQs, I revisited a couple of books which were one of the Gold standards during our times (although one of latest editions that i have). And surprisingly, none of them mentioned much about any type of cardiac complications!

Attachment 2013510

Attachment 2013511
From Essentials of Medical Pharmacology by Dr. K. D. Tripathi.

Attachment 2013512
From Davidson's Principles and Practice of Medicine.

Thank you for this, it was good to read. Can you tell what exactly in HCQ led it to being suggested as a use for Covid, the current argument is there may be no harm but also no apparent proven benefit so may as well use it as its cheaper than Remdesivir, which again I'm not sure is as effective as being claimed.

[Behemoth]

Some positive developments - the ICMR has also started trials of the Ivermectin and Doxycycline combo (From Bangladesh) in India. Also news from doctors in my family (who are working on Covid duty in UP and Rajasthan) is that this combo is actually working and they are already giving it to Covid patients since the past 2 weeks and getting good results. The catch is that these medicines need to be given before the symptoms become very severe - i.e before pneumonia sets in and blood oxygen falls below 90. If given before this, it is able to aid quick recovery in the patients
https://www.trialsitenews.com/icmr-i...-for-covid-19/

I honestly hope that this treatment works and we can have an end to this covid paranoia.

[Miyata]

By now HCQ has become as popular as covid / nCov itself. There possibly never will be a last word on this whole HCQ plot lines until well after this covid is behind us.

In yet another study, folks report - "Hydroxychloroquine does not prevent Covid-19 infection if exposed"

The malaria drug hydroxychloroquine did not help prevent people who had been exposed to others with Covid-19 from developing the disease, according to the results of an eagerly awaited study that was published Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine.

in the setting of post-exposure prophylaxis, it doesn’t seem to work

And, we will all wholeheartedly (+ exasperatedly) agree with this assessment below -

“This is not the end of the story with hydroxychloroquine,” said Ashish Jha, the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute.

By all means we do look forward to counter-studies and possible retractions while the wheel of merry go-round goes on and on...but quite circular, all the same!

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

Some positive developments - the ICMR has also started trials of the Ivermectin and Doxycycline combo (From Bangladesh) in India. ...

Remains to be seen, but the doubts on the HCQ side effects study was apparently triggered by a study by the same set of authors about Ivermectin being effective.

Of course that was more because the Spanish doctor realized that the number of patients administered Ivermectin had to be fudged.

Good if this is effective though.