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Old 3rd May 2020, 12:38   #1516
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by JithinR View Post
... are installing a fake Aarogya Setu app being sent through Whatsapp groups (you might be aware of .apk files) by Pakistani agents.
In that case, why not a fake FB app via the apk route? Why only aarogya setu?

Also fake APKs won't be available via the play Store. If they are. Then it's Google's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
I'm sure turning off location will be deemed illegal, if they've not done so already. That's the power of being a representative of the people.
It's not illegal as of today. Atleast not for me. Also, I may be in the minority but I am ok with govt. agencies holding my data rather than the likes of FB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by padmrajravi View Post
They do, but the difference is that you can choose not to use FB or Google services and you are off the radar. You can start using a dumb phone or an offshoot like Sailfish phone. But when government makes it mandatory, that is not the case. That is too much of power in the hands of government. It is always better not to let government enjoy more power, because never in the history has any government returned power to the citizens.
Or you can choose to not have a phone at all. There was no hue and cry when stuff like Instagram came pre installed on many phones or how many apps request not just location but also gallery, contact info (likes of truecaller) etc. The question is why now? Are these private guys any saints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
It's not as if the Australian government looks at who is in Australia, and then pushes the ad. Facebook has a directive from them, or any advertiser about pushing ads by demographics, location interest. The advertiser doesn't know who is receiving the ad, unless there's some underhanded agreement, which no-one can help in that case.
Facebook knows where Mr. X is, but the Australian government only know that the ad was served to YYYY number of people based on its criteria.
At least that was the mechanism till I last ran FB campaigns about 2 years back.
Thanks. Good to know. But the question that still remains. If I have denied location permission to FB, then how is it possible that I still get location specific ads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
The road to hell is always paved with good intentions. Today they use it to track you based on covid status. Tomorrow it could be used to divide based on your party affiliation, religion, economic status, whatever.
As I said, I am more comfortable with govt agencies holding my data than the private guys. I have lost count of the number of times data and sensitive information have been leaked from google, fb etc.


I think we are going so don't think its prudent to continue further on this.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 12:42   #1517
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
The road to hell is always paved with good intentions. Today they use it to track you based on covid status. Tomorrow it could be used to divide based on your party affiliation, religion, economic status, whatever.
If this app or any such app helps law enforcement to catch or crack any illegals or illegal activities the trade off (on chance) would be totally worth it.

You are basing things on what if, could be etc etc. No wonder the bad guys are winning if people don’t want to help the government based on things which haven’t happened. Then people who want the so called freedom crib why the government didn’t track or catch the bad guys before the crime.

This unnecessary paranoia is what ties the hands of law enforcement in crime fighting. Nobody wants to do their part by shouting “privacy” and yet expect the government/law enforcement to protect them.

I urge people to get out of this mindset created by herd mentality in the name of privacy.

Anyways, enough said from my side on this.

Cheers
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Old 3rd May 2020, 12:54   #1518
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Its good that we are worried about our privacy, its the same reason I deleted my Facebook account and avoid using Google products as much as possible.

However if the app ( ArogySetu) helps us in fighting COVID in anyways, we should install it. we can always uninstall it once we get passed this difficult situation. At max will government will know details about our whereabouts only for specific period of time, of which most of it will be at home.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 12:59   #1519
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
Simple case of opposition for the sake of it. If location based apps could be used to track movement by spies, then what about apps like Google, FB etc. which have been tracking movements from ages and even monetize the data by sharing with external agencies for relevant ads?

There are no privacy concerns there, but an app used for our own safety! No sir! We are worried about our privacy.
The main difference as others have also mentioned is the element of CHOICE.
Many people make an effort to avoid using FB and other social networks to avoid unnecessarily having everything they do, logged by an app whose sole aim is to harvest your data for information.
In cases where there is a tangible benefit of parting with that information(e.g. Google Maps or Uber), the user is still in control regarding the duration of that interaction and it is not an ongoing process.

Even if you consider that most users do not bother about this, the information is hardly free for all and is bound by stringent privacy laws across geographies. The organizations have taken up past lapses(e.g. Cambridge Analytica FB fiasco) in their stride and made things more transparent.

P.S. I invite everyone here to go through their "Off-Facebook Activity" and let me know if you are OK with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
I can still turn off the location even after I install the app. Also, if I am at home always, what tracking is being done? The govt. already knows where I live via aadhaar, passport etc.?
Not necessarily.

The app is designed to "wake" up the Bluetooth connection after specific intervals. I am not sure if it is also true for GPS but if/when the E-Pass feature is made more overarching, it is reasonable to assume that you will not have an option to switch off the location parameters and as another member mentioned, it is possible this can be termed illegal as well.

Govt. knows where your permanent address is but though this, it knows where you are at all times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
Different perspective on the so called “privacy issues” which everyone harps upon nowadays.

Pray, tell me, if you are a normal law abiding citizen why on earth are you so concerned if you can be tracked going shopping for your daily needs or going for a movie or your bank. Is it a state secret or something? Why does everyone need to be so protective of their whereabouts?
Would you be fine with your employer knowing where you spend your time after work as long as you an attest to that fact that you were not doing anything that would've violated the terms of your employment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
You think any government is so bothered about what you do, if you are above board and not doing anything illegal they won’t even bother with you.

This app or any other which can track a person may be used by governments to track activities of suspect people and help society to a large extent. What is wrong with that?

It’s the people who do wrong/illegal activities who should be concerned not normal people.
There are two issues that can affect a law abiding citizen.

1)
By gathering large datasets, it is easy to group and track behavior patterns. E.g. You are providing your age in the app. It is easy to assess how many people in the age range between 28-35 are visiting shopping malls.

Now this is not harmful and may even be userful in formulating targetted policies that may benefit everyone but judging by past experiences(e.g. Government clears policy to sell vehicle registration data
) its more likely that information might be misused.

2)
You are a law abiding citizen. You disagree with any policy and decide to join a sitting protest at some xyz location.
The authorities have been using facial recognition software to track people visiting these protests. Now this location data can be another tool-in their arsenal.
This may be difficult to empathize with but we never know when we may find ourselves on the other side of the river.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Government already knows everything via Adhaar, Banks etc. How does it matter, if they know what all I am doing and where all I am going? If I am not mistaken, they can always pull our location or even call recordings/ records from the telecom companies.

How much is the usefulness of this App, remains to be seen. Like, I can see how many people are infected in the range but not on map or any more details. Maybe Government has done this from the contact tracing point of view more than anything else.
All major social networks publish yearly transparency reports where they reveal how many data gathering requests were made by different governments across the globe. The bottom line is that the authorities usually had to have a court order to pull this data. Now they probably wont.

If you look at the privacy policy published for the app., the vendor has absolved themselves from any liabilities arising out of a false(+ve or -ve) risk assessment done by the app so make what you want from that in terms of the usefulness of the app.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
The road to hell is always paved with good intentions. Today they use it to track you based on covid status. Tomorrow it could be used to divide based on your party affiliation, religion, economic status, whatever.


In the end, everyone has personal thresholds on what they deem to be a violation of privacy.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 13:03   #1520
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
They dont have to ask that information. All that they need is track your route and the places you frequent for few weeks.
Sorry but can’t help

I am Sikh but go to many Hindu Temples with same devout. I go to Oberoi whenever I am feeling energetic and to Sagaar Ratna when I like to eat South Indian. I vote for a different party in MC / local elections and for a totally different when it comes to central. No one in my family lives in India except for my mother.

Hope I am safe to use the App !

Ok, let’s not get into assumptions unnecessarily. Nothing is open yet, no temples or hotels or clubs. Not even political parties offices. And no one is going to come to your home and take you to quarantine centre just because you came in close to a Covid patient. If that happens, they can warn you to watch for symptoms Or at least that’s what I have understood.

I won’t be surprised if they make this mandatory for some more activities in future like train or air travel.

Perhaps they need to communicate more, problem is that if we try to do some things forcibly people will object, which is human whereas if we tell all benefits, it may be easier to adapt. It might not harm government to make some changes if there are some gaps or concerns.

Hope my understanding is correct and Government plays fair.

Last edited by Turbanator : 3rd May 2020 at 13:14.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 13:05   #1521
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
Is it a state secret or something? Why does everyone need to be so protective of their whereabouts?
.

Cheers
Might not be a state secret, but it's also no business of an elected government in a democracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
Thanks. Good to know. But the question that still remains. If I have denied location permission to FB, then how is it possible that I still get location specific ads.

.
Your question was different. Whether facebook gives that location to the government. Facebook location is turned off from the Android system, so it should not possible for it to bypass. You may be getting ads either for some other criteria, or location history.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 13:19   #1522
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
The government has had 40+ days of lockdown to prepare for whatever they were planning. I don't think it makes a difference now if the lockdown is lifted now, after two weeks or after two months. We have to face the virus, whenever the lockdown ends. Why are they just extending it endlessly?:
Hi Samurai,

They never planned to do anything during lockdown!. It is only on this forum that we are talking about buying time to ramp up infrastructure, medical facilities etc.

For them lockdown was the weapon against the virus. Just as the sword you are wielding in your DP. Announce a lockdown and the virus will get blown away .

Why did they extend? Because we have still not defeated the virus with so many cases reported everyday.

Now why have they eased the lockdown in this phase? The sheer pressure on them from all quarters to return to normal lives.

I really hope there is a vaccine or the virus just runs out of breath soon so that our administrators don't have to make any more such extremely tricky and difficult decisions.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 13:20   #1523
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

All this seems like a circus, rules without logic in place, every authority has his own version of the lockdown/restriction. Is there nothing coordinated within the government departments, central/state? Can't they ever release a statement which is crisp and clear without having to assume anything? They should an * (conditions apply) at the end of every statement they issue .Wonder what will come out of the magic hat next !
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Old 3rd May 2020, 13:21   #1524
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Without going for or against Privacy concerns -

A person deciding not to install it would also not be able to make use of the app's features, and in doing so may put himself and others at risk as the proximity of a "Carrier" remains unknown for him/her.

Anyone willing to take that risk should by all means not install it and see what unfolds going forward and take a call accordingly.

P.S. I haven't installed the app yet, not because of any Privacy concerns, but because I am at home and step out once in 10 days. Also, the other phone in my house has it installed, so if needed, I do have something to look at.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 13:23   #1525
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
They dont have to ask that information. All that they need is track your route and the places you frequent for few weeks.
1. If you are regular at you place of worship, they can gauge your religion ( in fact your affinity to a specific "deity" as well depending on the temple )
2. If you are frequenting high profile restaurants, clubs your economic status is available.
3. If you attend any party meetings or meet up with other similar like minded people, your party affiliation will also be known.
4. Based on this, they can also identify your family members, friends ( their phone will come in proximity to yours often )

The possibilities endless. All that people here are advocating is that it should be optional to install and uninstall. The moment they start forcing, then intentions are questionable.
Similar analytics were used in the US general election where Trump won and i am sure it has since been used in all major elections in India as well.

It boils down to knowing your customer but it should not mean that you start looking into his phone to see what he wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
Or you can choose to not have a phone at all. There was no hue and cry when stuff like Instagram came pre installed on many phones or how many apps request not just location but also gallery, contact info (likes of truecaller) etc. The question is why now? Are these private guys any saints?

Thanks. Good to know. But the question that still remains. If I have denied location permission to FB, then how is it possible that I still get location specific ads.
The most basic criteria to push Ads is location. GPS is a highly accurate way to get the readers location but the easiest fallback is your IP address. If you try using a VPN based in Germany, your ads on the TeamBhp website will also change in the very next page refresh.

And regarding not using a phone, i'm sure you know how easy it is to live without an Aadhar card today. Once these things get pervasive, and this happens gradually mind you, it is almost unavoidable to live outside the bubble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Perhaps they need to communicate more, problem is that if we try to do some things forcibly many object which is only human whereas if we tell all benefits, it may be easier to adapt. Hope my understanding is correct and Government plays fair.
That would be a good start.

This app today has one stated goal, to help manage the pandemic with contact tracing. If the public is told that the app has a specific shelf life until the reported cases turn to 0, most privacy concerns disappear. But that statement should be legally binding and not just an off-the-cuff comment on some news channel.

But seeing that many are not averse to having this as a permanent part of their lives, why would anyone forgo the opportunity.

Somebody mentioned in a post that we should not worry about what could happen and only look at what we know now.
In my mind, we need to plan ahead to avoid unpleasant surprises.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 13:29   #1526
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
In that case, why not a fake FB app via the apk route? Why only aarogya setu?

Also fake APKs won't be available via the play Store. If they are. Then it's Google's fault.
There are fake/cracked versions of multiple apps online. The point here is that not everyone knows that you need to download apps from verified sources.

Kids in school and senior citizens are most at risk here. But our country has an unfortunate problem of a large number of people who trust WhatsApp forwards (some of the explanation for Janata curfew, thali banging, Diya lighting guys was amazing...a lot of us understood the reason for all this as just social responsibility and solidarity but a lot of even educated ones amongst the right wing thought we were waging war on this virus ).

In such a country you can forward an .apk file with an appropriate image and a short sweet request in patriotic undertones to convince users to disable the safety measures on our smartphones and install a fake app.

This is what the government is worried about. That they are multiple person in the Army that would fall prey to it.

Google play store as far as I know is not as stringent when it comes to vetting apps as Apple app store.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 16:44   #1527
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Might not be a state secret, but it's also no business of an elected government in a democracy.
...turned off from the Android system, so it should not possible for it to bypass.

I don't know if you have a background in computers, but if you are somewhere working on the back-end or even an administrator it is quite easy to snoop on others. This is an easy power to abuse, and is addictive. There are now many limitations on what programmers or administrators can do, but it must be quite easy to get past the artificial limitations. If you have immunity ("official") or work in under a lax structure, like in a government organization, snooping will be much easier. I doubt there are audit trails or strict supervision requirements for accessing personal data of others. I can imagine how tempting it must be for those inside the IT sections to "do the right thing" by "helping out" the "good guys".

Coming to Android and other smartphones, they leak data. Google is able to track you even if your phone is switched off! What may seem impossible to ordinary people, is apparently quite easy for people with technical knowledge in the appropriate area. People are easily confused by numerous settings and may leave certain settings on that allow tracing or leak personal data. The likes of Google are not penalized for such lapses. These examples are quite straightforward and obvious, I shudder to think what real hackers can do.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 16:51   #1528
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

The Aarogya Setu app has an "e-Pass" section (coming soon). In my opinion this "e-Pass" may become like your personal risk-rating.

This may come to mean:
- Employers ask you to show your rating before entering office premises.

- Uber/Ola will put their drivers risk-rating into their app. (Of course, this would require the app to share the data with Uber/Ola.). Would you trust a Uber/Ola driver who doesn't share the risk rating?

- You may have to allow Uber/Ola to retrieve your rating before booking a cab. Otherwise the driver may refuse to drive you.

- Airlines may ask to show your rating before you board flights (whenever it starts)

- RWAs would insist on low-risk ratings from maids and other service providers.

In effect, the government need not make the app mandatory. The scared society, that we see around, will make it mandatory for any meaningful transactions to be done.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 17:43   #1529
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by DigitalOne View Post
... personal risk-rating...
Ironically amusing, another 'Chinese' Idea.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 17:52   #1530
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by himarg View Post
Is there any official guideline regarding maids from the state Government? The RWA in my apartment is split and it is almost a stalemate now. A govt order can be a tie breaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nax04 View Post
I just came across this article. But there is no official note from govt as such that I could find.

Link
Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
I dont know if this helps but FWIW:

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/...439-2020-05-01
Our own apartment residents had a heated argument yesterday about this issue. Some wanting to allow maids while some are opposing it. I wonder where all these news websites got their information from. None are providing any official order as a source.
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