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View Poll Results: Do you support the lockdown extension?
Yes 299 47.46%
No 244 38.73%
I'm unsure 87 13.81%
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Old 9th May 2020, 00:13   #1756
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
The perfect game to play in these difficult times.

http://covid.xrlabs.cloud/que

Do have a gander. It will be well worth your time.
Very apt game in this difficult time. I went bankrupt on day 7.
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Old 9th May 2020, 06:59   #1757
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by JLS View Post
Sir, can you please highlight few key point which differentiate Kerala from other states in terms of health care perspective.
I have mentioned this on the Regional movies thread and will repeat it here too.
Do watch the movie "Virus" on Prime with English subtitles.

The movie is an account of how Kerala tackled the Nipah Virus a few years ago and will give you a realistic depiction of how our government is dealing with the current pandemic.

A few commentators have mentioned that due to their dry run with the Nipah virus a few years back, the state of Kerala was better prepared to tackle Corona Virus since most of the people in power were present at that time too. And the general population too was aware of what to expect.

Here is an article - "How a South Indian State Flattened Its Coronavirus Curve"

Quote:
When the virus arrived in India, local Keralan authorities quickly partnered with tour companies to requisition boats to provide a safe and secluded place for those infected to recover. This is just one example of the many creative measures the state government has taken. A highly competent and well-resourced public sector, aggressive testing, and socio-economic measures to care for the poor and vulnerable has made the “Kerala model” one of the best in India – if not the world – in combating COVID-19.
Quote:
Much of this is attributable to Kerala’s health minister, K.K. Shailaja, who stands among the ranks of women leaders containing the pandemic better than the rest.

India’s first coronavirus case was discovered in Kerala in January, and at one point the state even had the highest rate of infection in the country. But while the Indian government was still debating a nation-wide response, K.K. Shailaja had already put into place an efficient strategy at the state level. By January, the state had started airport screenings and tracing to isolate persons suspected of being exposed to the virus. By February, she established protocols for a response team to coordinate with public officials across the state. Three months later, only four of 482 diagnosed patients have died and more than half have recovered – the best record in the country. Those cured include a 93-year-old man and his 85-year-old wife.
More in the article linked below.

Source The Diplomat

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rationalist View Post
Private sector is also good, but that’s the case in most states. For those who can afford there is no much issues regarding health care in India. But ‘Our’ India is different from ‘Their’ India. Until the poor people don’t get proper health care, don’t expect India to become a great nation. When they get uplifted, then ‘we’ will also get lifted into the next class.
My only wish is that Corona has made us rethink our priorities and we invest more in Public health care sector. If not all the sacrifices made by people during this period would be for nothing.
Excellent point made about uplifting the "poor" for the country to be uplifted.
Another excellent point is that we learn from this pandemic and overhaul our entire health care system for the better.

Rahm Emanuel, an American politician, made the following quote: "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."

We must heed that quote, take away important lessons from this pandemic and wizen up for the better.

Last edited by Ithaca : 9th May 2020 at 07:08.
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Old 9th May 2020, 09:55   #1758
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Have to learn to live with Covid-19: Govt!

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The health ministry on Friday said Indians would have to learn to live with coronavirus, indicating there might be no early tapering off of the disease and would require an adjustment to a new normal of social distancing and sanitation that could become part of everyday life for some time to come.
True!! We have to accept this as new normal and move on carefully.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/75638429.cms
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Old 9th May 2020, 10:07   #1759
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Now reality is dawning on the migrants. One more round of big movement back.
https://indianexpress.com/article/in...-back-6401013/
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Old 9th May 2020, 10:12   #1760
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
I fully agree with you on the media hype. But still unable to formulate a clear opinion on the seriousness of the epidemic. On this forum few doctors are criticizing the lock down where as their related organisations from WHO to ICMR are advising lockdowns. Top epidemiologists are advocating lock down. Doctors are running scared and even refuse to treat normal patients. So can we blame the media or politicians alone....
Top epidemiology and infectious disease experts in the country are actually split on the "lockdown" as per a recent news article. Not everyone supports it. Prof. Jacob John, epidemiologist, a prominent figure in South India, from CMC Vellore, has been more or less advocating against the lockdown. By now it is amply clear that there is no farsightedness and cities and states are taking pride in endlessly extending this lockdown with some cities like Pune declaring that even the essential shops will be closed in red zones

Right from WHO to the most junior nurse now knows that this virus is here to stay. The reason why Sweden model is sustainable in the long run ( though with extensive short term damage ) and eventually every country might start adopting the same.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 10th May 2020 at 00:12. Reason: Trimmed quote.
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Old 9th May 2020, 11:30   #1761
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Big, LOUD screenprints don't make things true.

Oh, wait... they don't necessarily make them untrue, either. But, even
i apologize to everyone here. I too got carried away. I realize it was a harsh message that I would not have liked if it targeted "my side".

Like I've said before, it is going to be difficult to change opinions with just information, there is so much at stake. Those debating here have been making the same points over and over again, ad nauseam.

Coming to our "migrants", does anyone know if the government has invited representatives from amongst them to put forward their case and assist the government in doing what is best for them in this crisis? Similarly, have they readied their villages to receive them with appropriate quarantining measures? I don't know how successfully they can implement social distancing in trains (or even in planes) - hopefully the virus will be blown out of the compartments without landing on some poor souls near the train.
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Old 9th May 2020, 11:56   #1762
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Subtle change in narrative, but probably stating the obvious.

"...learn to live with the virus : Govt"

Somewhere IMHO, it sounds like they are eventually coming out of denial! Its high time they create a separate line of service at par with IAS/IPS called IMS, Indian Medical Service essentially from the pool of doctors. Not an arts graduate with the intensive coaching and newspaper study for a year gone right!

https://medicaldialogues.in/creation...tates-response

Surrendering to the inevitable. The inherent challenge remains the propensity of the junta to defy all norms prescribed! Best of luck.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/75638429.cms

Last edited by lapis_lazuli : 9th May 2020 at 12:12.
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Old 9th May 2020, 11:56   #1763
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

I think our PM did what he could do. Now he can not let economy bleed.

So, it's upto us how we take care of ourselves. If one can afford to not go out, don't go out. I personally don't give a damm about the economy. My first priority is to protect me and my family. It's as simple as that.

I believe WHO when they say that taking corona lightly won't be good at this time. I believe that government will think of its people and they are much better equipped and in much better position to take a call on economy.

My contribution towards economy is down only because I'm not using car/diesel/fuel/lic's etc etc. Other than that I am paying taxes, tds, purchasing items online. My contribution to economy has not become 0.

If one thinks too much about the economy, please donate all your savings and your salary to relief fund. I have helped many people with money and with many other things but at this time, i am not paranoid about bringing economy back on track.

When you board a flight, the announcement is very clear, please take care of yourself before helping others.

For me, the clear order is : my family, extended family, neighbours, poor and then economy.

Last edited by vb-san : 9th May 2020 at 12:12. Reason: Last line deleted. Please do not draw offtopic discussions.
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Old 9th May 2020, 12:17   #1764
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by turbo_delight View Post
For me, the clear order is : my family, extended family, neighbours, poor and then economy.
1500 posts and the message is still not clear. So let me repeat it.

People advocating for the economy are not doing so because we purport to be Mahatmas who are putting others ahead of self. Far from it actually.

We are doing so in self interest ONLY.

You are afraid of the Coronavirus. We are afraid of a situation where we cannot feed our families. Even the thoughts about others’ plights is based on self-interest only. We are simply afraid of societal fabric breaking apart at the seams with a prolonged shutdown.

That’s the difference. That’s all.

We don’t believe that anyone will be spared in a connected economy. If this damage continues, the virus will be the least of our problems.

It has never been about money vs. lives. It has always been about lives vs. lives. Please understand this.

Last edited by vb-san : 9th May 2020 at 12:20. Reason: Quoted post edited, updated related response
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Old 9th May 2020, 12:18   #1765
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Top epidemiologists are advocating lock down.
But it is a fact that we don't have many countries which did otherwise to establish the contrary.
The epidemiologists are divided in their opinion. Now let’s see the example of two countries which share a common culture, was once even ruled by the same king. In the graph you can see Norway had higher cases in the beginning and they enforced lockdown and have controlled the epidemic. Sweden on the other hand didn’t lockdown and cases have sky rocketed, deaths too.

Now we will all be thinking Sweden made a big blunder. Norway has enough resources to survive a lockdown, they have one of the world’s largest sovereign wealth funds thanks to their oil resources. Sweden doesn’t have that luxury. Swedish strategy was a calculated risk taken by the Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell. But he has also admitted that he is not sure whether his approach was correct or not.

Sweden 25265 cases, 3175 deaths
Norway 8070 cases, 218 deaths

Now coming to India, the Central Governement was too late to start screening airports and implement a lockdown. When Kerala started screening Airport arrivals by January, what was the Central Governement doing? Did they think virus comes by special planes to Kerala airports? If they were not capable of doing anything, they could have just copied what Kerala did. Was there anything to lose by screening? This government mismanaged this whole thing by a large mile,period.

Do you see our curve going like Norway? Norway curve came down by 30 days, our’s is going up at 44 days. Forget about wealth fund, the government has resorted to tax fuel like anything. The fuel is cheaper all over the world now.

Let’s say lockdown is the option, but will this government compensate for the losses? Let’s stop paying the government servants for the entire period of lockdown, are they superior to the ordinary citizens? They are being paid not from their ancestral properties, it’s from the tax the government squeezes out. Why should ordinary people only suffer the financial turmoil? We have not given any assurance that we will continue to pay all government staff in any condition. Will this government assure those who lose jobs that they will have new jobs? There is a saying in Malayalam “A squirrel shouldn’t try to shit like an elephant, squirrel will end up with tear in the ass!”. If the government can’t guarantee anything, the citizens also have no obligation to guarantee anything.
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Last edited by The Rationalist : 9th May 2020 at 12:27.
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Old 9th May 2020, 12:24   #1766
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Perhaps a First anywhere in the world for a disease due to which we closed everything for 2 months and suddenly this becomes, non-issue. Or they no longer have resources to afford testing? I suspect later.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coro...home-topscroll

wonder what's changed now.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/amit...home-topscroll

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
We are doing so in self interest ONLY.

You are afraid of the Coronavirus. We are afraid of a situation where we cannot feed our families.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rationalist View Post
Now we will all be thinking Sweden made a big blunder. Norway has enough resources to survive a lockdown, they have one of the world’s largest sovereign wealth funds thanks to their oil resources. Sweden doesn’t have that luxury. Swedish strategy was a calculated risk taken by the Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell. But he has also admitted that he is not sure his approach was correct or not.

Norway curve came down by 30 days, our’s is going up at 44 days. ?
Correct, Someone should have evaluated both options, more so in our country where a large popluation lives on day to day earnings and even the Government is not cash rich. There are multiple reports that this virus spreads more in closed spaces, had the Government gone for a staggered lockdown, we might have been better. At this time, they will have to create demand.

Last edited by Turbanator : 9th May 2020 at 12:31.
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Old 9th May 2020, 12:35   #1767
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Perhaps a First anywhere in the world for a disease due to which we closed everything for 2 months and suddenly this becomes, non-issue. Or they no longer have resources to afford testing? I suspect later.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coro...home-topscroll
To be honest, this should have been the way from the beginning as there was no need for RT-PCR test to be negative. RT-PCR positivity doesnít mean infectivity, I have mentioned that earlier. Why they have stopped now is due to realisation of their folly. Many of us had communicated to official channels that testing for discharge was not useful. Patients are discharged based on the resolution of symptoms. Itís good they have changed their policy, when we are wrong there is nothing to be ashamed of to admit that and make corrections.
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Old 9th May 2020, 12:37   #1768
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by The Rationalist View Post
The epidemiologists are divided in their opinion.
Who is advising the Govt for a lock down?
Like any field there will be difference of opinion. But what is the majority recommendation from health bodies. The AIMS director today is saying peak will be in June-July. Now are you saying Govt should disregard people like him and take contrary decisions. Govt consist mostly political and bureaucratic class. How will they take independent decisions. The guy Neil Ferguson who advised UK Govt a death toll of 2L deaths himself violated the lockdown and now being kicked out. So we have to blame such doomsday predictors in the medical field equally if lockdown is not the right solution. Why should a sane govt forego the revenue and misery to its people of their own?

If the virus is not a major threat why are ordinary doctors not coming out and educating the public. A doctor in my community is advising a min more 3 months lock down and scaring people in the apartment. No doctor is willing to treat normal patients with out Covid clearance. So there is a big divide with in medical community itself.

The major problem I see with lockdown is return of license raj. The bureacrats and Police making money with ambiguous decision making. This has to stop.We may be able to overcome the economic consequences. But the license culture should not return in the name of safety.

Last edited by poloman : 9th May 2020 at 12:41.
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Old 9th May 2020, 12:58   #1769
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Who is advising the Govt for a lock down?
Like any field there will be difference of opinion. But what is the majority recommendation from health bodies.
...
The major problem I see with lockdown is return of license raj.
Sir, I believe you are being naive if you believe that everything is happening in an ideal manner. It will not be just doctors giving their expert opinion, there will also be politics among them. Again, there will be vested interests like politicians, businessmen, bureaucrats. The final decision must please them all, or please the most powerful group. Like you yourself pointed out - there is a group that is already benefiting from this lockdown

Mods - Kindly delete my post if it is out of context.
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Old 9th May 2020, 13:37   #1770
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Who is advising the Govt for a lock down?
Like any field there will be difference of opinion. But what is the majority recommendation from health bodies. The AIMS director today is saying peak will be in June-July. Now are you saying Govt should disregard people like him and take contrary decisions.
I have said this already once in response to your own post. But I will repeat it here.

Medical personnel will advice from a medical point of view ONLY. That is their entire freaking job. They are not supposed to take anything else into consideration. Even doctors who are opposing a lockdown are doing so from a medical point of view only (herd immunity, etc.). They are not turning economists all of a sudden. Doctors will not be measured by any other yardstick.

But a countryís government has N other KRAs to fulfill. So it has to take a decision based on what the best trade-off is. Very few countries (or even individuals) can afford to implement medical advise in 100% form.

It is actually the JOB of government to take a moderated decision keeping in mind the overall needs of a society. Pointing fingers at medical advise will work for some time. But eventually, a government is expected to take a more holistic view of things.

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
If the virus is not a major threat why are ordinary doctors not coming out and educating the public. A doctor in my community is advising a min more 3 months lock down and scaring people in the apartment. No doctor is willing to treat normal patients with out Covid clearance. So there is a big divide with in medical community itself.
You said it yourself. Some doctors are afraid while others arenít. People come in all shapes and sizes. I think anyone is free to feel any which way and then to act accordingly. The problem comes when someone elseís choice is forced on others. So, by all means, stay home for the rest of your life if you can afford to, and if thatís what makes you feel safe. No problem. Just please donít force others to stay home when they would actually want to venture out.

Finally, as educated people, we have to realise that there is no absolute safety in life. There are only degrees of safety and degrees of risk.
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