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View Poll Results: Do you support the lockdown extension?
Yes 299 47.46%
No 244 38.73%
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Old 20th June 2020, 21:53   #2506
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

What is the quarantine scene in Delhi/NCR now? Is institutional quarantine mandatory or home quarantine is sufficient? I need to travel to Faridabad in a weeks time. I am thinking of taking a flight from Kolkata to Delhi as i haven't driven this long at a single shot yet. But at the same time am keeping this option of driving down open. Which would be safer option?
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Old 21st June 2020, 03:44   #2507
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Fordlover88 View Post
What is the quarantine scene in Delhi/NCR now? Is institutional quarantine mandatory or home quarantine is sufficient? I need to travel to Faridabad in a weeks time. I am thinking of taking a flight from Kolkata to Delhi as i haven't driven this long at a single shot yet. But at the same time am keeping this option of driving down open. Which would be safer option?
The airlines recently quoted statistics that show airtravel is safer than any other modes of transport, to encourage people to use their planes. Pretty misleading, because those figures are from pre Covid 19 times. Also pretty desperate, because that information has been given so many times, people easily saw through the deception. Instead they should have stressed that planes have been quite successful in keeping passengers free of viral infections like flu, being designed from the get go to cope with keeping air in confined spaces healthy for long time periods, both factors contributing to easy transmission of colds and flu. The features that help prevent infection are HEPA (high efficiency particulate air) filters and down draft ventilation (filtered air moves down from nozzles and vents to extractors in the floor. Aerosols and droplets hit the floor, not even making the 6 feet needed for them to settle on your face. Which by the way still need protection with masks and goggles. Face shields are no protection against viral shedding in aerosol form. PPE suits protect against skin ingress by virus during long stays in environments filled with sloshing liquids that may contain virus samples, like testing labs, so IN MY OPINION, overkill for short flights in relatively dry air spaces. Immediately washing hands and showering when you get home should take care of that latter type exposure, I feel. Medical experts please chime in here if it is not so. What one expert added was that if possible, take two short flights instead of one long one, to reduce time spent in spaces that have suffered a building up of viral matter.

Driving is much safer in providing a better virus free environment, but balance that against lesser favorable statistics, and more so in the Indian context.

Not a rigorous, scientific analysis, but just from doing my homework with data obtained from articles in scientific journals.

Last edited by proton : 21st June 2020 at 03:49.
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Old 21st June 2020, 08:02   #2508
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Fordlover88 View Post
What is the quarantine scene in Delhi/NCR now? Is institutional quarantine mandatory or home quarantine is sufficient?
If asymptomatic, It appears you need home quarantine of 1-week. These things have a tendency to keep changing as well, so you may want to check again on the day of travel too.

Additionally, if it is an apartment complex you are heading to, please check once with the committee members there. There has been news of apartment complex dwellers getting very touchy (irony of the word!) with any one returning from the "outside."

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Which would be safer option?
A BHPian would mount the horse and just go galloping - Dilli Chalo! No matter it is 70 horses or 370!

Surely driving would appear to be the safest mode of travel. Particularly so if you may have some Sr citizens at home in Delhi, or infants at home. Depending on the border transits, one may require some medical certificate (I guess. I don't know).

If you are pressed for time and not comfortable driving this long a distance, I guess you just have to take a little risk and fly while ensuring you are strict about the quarantine procedures.

In case you have some other health conditions - BP, Diabetes, etc - might be best to drive and if possible carry along a dependable co-driver to share the burden.
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:27   #2509
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

One thing that's certainly becoming obvious to me from my (albeit limited) experiences during this covid-19 situation and lockdown is how easily we revert to the 'outsider-at-fault' fallback, even while we remain oblivious of our own actions.

*Mid-lockdown, relative A was always on our case about going outside for a ride/drive. We used to go out on the bike or the car once in a while, without stopping, without meeting anyone. But - "Why do you need to?!" "Can't you stay indoors?!" But same relative has also said they are waiting eagerly for their place of worship to open so they can start going!

*Friend B who is living with an aged parent (in his 80s) needs to be present at work everyday. Is also constructing a house so interacts with her contractor inside her present accommodation a couple of times a week, and with the construction workers at the site (since the unlock relaxations kicked in). We've observed that friend B is also not very careful about using a mask during these interactions, sometimes uses, sometimes forgets. Gets irritated when reminded to use a mask. BUT she's paranoid about other people traveling to the neighboring district which borders another state 'because the number of cases there are rising everyday'! Even though those cases reported have all been identified at the border and are safely quarantined!

*Colleague C is angry that his "state allowed these migrants from the neighboring state to come in and increase the number of cases". But when his relative wanted to travel from the same state to get back home, apparently that's different somehow!

As things begin to open up, seeing so many such contradictions everyday. Activities which carry the same risk of viral infection or probably more are not evaluated rationally based on science or fact, but based on who is doing it, and whether that person thinks it's 'essential' or not. Conversely, other people's actions are being used to judge them and their choices. And sadly, as always, being used as a stick to beat 'the outsiders' with; the definition of 'an outsider' being very fluid and subject to change (usually politically-driven)!

Last edited by am1m : 21st June 2020 at 10:37.
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:43   #2510
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by am1m View Post
One thing that's certainly becoming obvious to me from my (albeit limited) experiences during this covid-19 situation and lockdown is how easily we revert to the 'outsider-at-fault' fallback, even while we remain oblivious of our own actions...

... And sadly, as always, being used as a stick to beat 'the outsiders' with; the definition of 'an outsider' being very fluid and subject to change (usually politically-driven) as always!
Fascinating, isn't it!? I used to think that education, standard of living, being exposed to different views, etc would change this behavior; apparently not!
Pain can change us deeply, but not always in beneficial ways. Other than that, we may all have to wear a little processor inside our heads to, ironically, make us more "human" !
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Old 21st June 2020, 12:17   #2511
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Mumbai's doubling rate has improved considerably to 34 days now!

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/76488650.cms
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Old 21st June 2020, 12:53   #2512
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by proton View Post
Driving is much safer in providing a better virus free environment, but balance that against lesser favorable statistics, and more so in the Indian context.

Not a rigorous, scientific analysis, but just from doing my homework with data obtained from articles in scientific journals.
Thanks for your insights. Am not much comfortable travelling in flight in this scenario especially with elders at home where am going. Making up my mind on driving down.

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Originally Posted by Miyata View Post
Additionally , if it is an apartment complex you are heading to, please check once with the committee members there. There has been news of apartment complex dwellers getting very touchy (irony of the word!) with any one returning from the "outside."
Ok. So right now one week home quarantine is sufficient. Will check again the day i travel. Yes i will heading to a apartment complex. The head of the committee is pretty familiar to me and he assured that it won't be much of an issue.


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A BHPian would mount the horse and just go galloping - Dilli Chalo! No matter it is 70 horses or 370!

Surely driving would appear to be the safest mode of travel. Particularly so if you may have some Sr citizens at home in Delhi, or infants at home. Depending on the border transits, one may require some medical certificate (I guess. I don't know).
Yes even am skeptical of flights and Delhi Airport in particular keeping in mind the current scenario.
I have senior citizens at home where am headed to. Thinking of driving down now.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 22:27   #2513
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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.. your evidence is anecdotal. One instance. In other instances, not applicable.
As it turns out, my evidence was not anecdotal after all. Sure, instead of quoting from an article, I had surmised my earlier post based on what I what I was seeing around me. But, my observation was correct -

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/76474340.cms

Cheers
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Old 22nd June 2020, 23:50   #2514
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
As it turns out, my evidence was not anecdotal after all. Sure, instead of quoting from an article, I had surmised my earlier post based on what I what I was seeing around me. But, my observation was correct -

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/76474340.cms

Cheers
Like i said, not applicable in all instances:

https://broadbandforum.co/t/202055/post-1451041

Last edited by proton : 22nd June 2020 at 23:51.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 00:07   #2515
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by proton View Post
Like i said, not applicable in all instances:

https://broadbandforum.co/t/202055/post-1451041
Please don’t change the context to suit your premise.

My original statement (in post #2483) was about the situation in MH and in Mumbai. I said that bed availability had vastly improved compared to a few weeks ago.

You termed my statement as anecdotal and as not based on any concrete evidence.

Now I am showing you an article in a legitimate newspaper, The Times of India (dated 20th June), that backs up my statement.

Instead of admitting that I was right in what I said about Mumbai and that you were wrong to say that my statement lacked evidence about Mumbai, you rebut by showing me a video about Delhi which was nowhere mentioned in the original discussion. And on top of that, the content of the video isn’t dated properly (i.e.the video was published yesterday; but it is not clear when it was shot).

How is this not shifting the argument? Can I rebut with a video of a smoothly functioning hospital with no Corona cases in some other part of the country?

Last edited by mohansrides : 23rd June 2020 at 00:28.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 00:59   #2516
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
Please don’t change the context to suit your premise.

The argument was about the usefulness of applying the lockdown to as many people as possible to avoid overloading the hospital system.

You claimed the system was upgraded and now there is no possibility of breaking it.

You then qualified it by saying this applied at least in MH.

I pointed out that you admitted that you were toning down your claim and saying it applied in MH, backed by anecdotal data.

Inferring it was a weak argument, because advice on this thread should be useful to members from ALL locations.

If your claim is that no member should worry about bed shortages, then that claim was falsified by the video.


Also many other sources:

https://thefederal.com/states/north/...rtage-sources/

Last edited by proton : 23rd June 2020 at 01:05.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 01:12   #2517
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by proton View Post
The argument was about the usefulness of applying the lockdown to as many people as possible to avoid overloading the hospital system.

You claimed the system was upgraded and now there is no possibility of breaking it.

You then qualified it by saying this applied at least in MH.

I pointed out that you admitted that you were toning down your claim and saying it applied in MH, backed by anecdotal data.

Inferring it was a weak argument, because advice on this thread should be useful to members from ALL locations.

If your claim is that no member should worry about bed shortages, then that claim was falsified by the video.
False - your claim that my statement about Mumbai was anecdotal. There is an actual newspaper article that backs me up.

False - that the video discredits my argument. There is no date on when the video was shot. It could have been shot many weeks ago and published now.

False - I never ever said or even implied that the system was upgraded to the point of being unbreakable. All I said was that the situation had improved in many places; which in fact, it has.

That video proves nothing. It is undated and it shows an interview of a few people who had very bad experiences. If anything, THAT video is what is anecdotal. It makes no empirical examination and does not go into any depths to see exactly what the situation is in terms of actual data. Instead, it just relies on the shock value of talking to 4 or 5 people who are having (or had) bad experiences.

If I take this approach, I can show you a video of KL or HP at a hospital where Corona patients are having very good experiences, and term that video to be the lynchpin of evidence of the system working like a well-oiled machine.

In any case, my argument has always been, whatever the state of the medical system, a lockdown risks a lot worse outcomes for society, both in the short and long terms.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 01:54   #2518
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
In any case, my argument has always been, whatever the state of the medical system, a lockdown risks a lot worse outcomes for society, both in the short and long terms.
Let's address this aspect of the problem.

Red Dragon is the avatar an Indian epidemiologist (having been in charge of Central and Eastern Europe, and after battling 24/7 for months in Spain and Italy) uses on this forum:

https://techenclave.com/community/threads/

He states elsewhere that expert help was offered and accepted by Europe, but rejected by our country. At different stages over the past months, he points out the mistakes made. Right now, based on epidemiological experience, the proper action is hard lockdowns at specific locations.

https://techenclave.com/community/th...1/post-2202411

Quote
When community transmission starts, preventive measures like wearing masks, social distancing etc. become less effective ( Written clearly in all epidemiology textbooks including Park`s. If the government values lives of common people, now it`s the time for the harshest lockdown. If overnight all the people in India become 100 percent compliant, people will still get infected. Wearing a gamcha may put you in Modi`s good book, but the virus is loving that too..

If it`s not implemented, India will remember this tragedy for centuries.


PS You still believe the press when it published the claim that there is no community transmission?

Last edited by proton : 23rd June 2020 at 02:00.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 02:18   #2519
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Let's address this aspect of the problem.
Whoever Red Dragon is, he hasn’t lived in a situation where his next meal has been robbed out of his hands by a choice that’s been forced on him without compensation or redressal mechanisms.

Many Many doomsday specialists have had a field day predicting nothing but absolute death on a mass scale due to Corona. The reality is anything but. Here is a thread about a family who got into and out of Covid without so much as seeing a doctor -

https://twitter.com/PhadkeTai/status...396329984?s=20

The reality is that a small percentage of people succumb to the disease. Even in the video that you provided, the principal complaint is the information black-out. Not mass death. But death is the only thing that people are associating with the disease. If you scroll down the comments section of that video, there is one person who actually says “Corona = Certain death”. This kind of fear mongering is what is more dangerous than the actual virus.

Of course, in an ideal world, I am for preventing any and all deaths. But the problem is that the act of preventing those deaths causes many other deaths and unimaginable suffering to vast majorities of people whose numbers are orders of magnitudes greater than the people dying from Corona.

At this point, the only thing to do is to stop testing altogether. It achieves nothing other than to simply dial up the panic. Just focus on providing supportive treatment to the the severely symptomatic individuals by getting them to the hospital. Leave the rest alone and do not try testing each and everyone just because they were on a contact list.

Also no quarantine and all family members should be allowed to be near the patients.

Finally anyone demanding a lockdown should be made directly liable financially in substantive ways. If someone wants a lockdown, then they should pay for it out of their own pockets. There must be mechanisms put in to identify those who are asking for a lockdown and having them be financially liable. Corona is not being inflicted by people on others. But a lockdown is definitely a wilful act of infliction of suffering on others for our safety and benefit.

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You still believe the press when it published the claim that there is no community transmission?
I believe that community transmission happened long long ago. I also believe that the disease is not worth worrying about; certainly not to the point of enacting measures that drive entire societies to the brink of economic collapse. And before you ask, no, the word ‘economic’ doesn’t pertain only to money. It pertains to real lives being lost and to human suffering that dwarfs the suffering of those infected with Corona.

Last edited by mohansrides : 23rd June 2020 at 02:34.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 08:20   #2520
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
Whoever Red Dragon is, he hasn’t lived in a situation where his next meal has been robbed out of his hands by a choice that’s been forced on him without compensation or redressal mechanisms.


Of course, in an ideal world, I am for preventing any and all deaths. But the problem is that the act of preventing those deaths causes many other deaths and unimaginable suffering to vast majorities of people whose numbers are orders of magnitudes greater than the people dying from Corona.

At this point, the only thing to do is to stop testing altogether. It achieves nothing other than to simply dial up the panic. Just focus on providing supportive treatment to the the severely symptomatic individuals by getting them to the hospital. Leave the rest alone and do not try testing each and everyone just because they were on a contact list.
Logical fallacy of poisoning the well. You don't have to have experienced poverty (which he has) to understand the implications of making tough medical choices in situations requiring informed judgement calls. Bottomline, no point in having a job if you're dead.

He is in constant contact with Bengal CM to give advice. His team mates are probably responsible for the minimising the spread of the virus in Dharavi, although they are not allowed by their employers to do so.

Red Dragon is also the epidemiologist who headed the team sent to pull Spain out of the hole it dug itself into:

https://techenclave.com/community/th...191779/page-27

Quote:
Quote

2. If ferritin within normal range, I will go all out, TCZventilator, IABP ( if the heart gives up pumping function), ECMO ( if both heart and lung is failing simultaneously) and ventilator is not oxygenating enough. This approach saved about 70 percent of very sick patient.
No ****ing around with HCQS/ Azithral/ Remdesivir.
All my team member doctors/nurses can use their own judgement regarding investigations etc. but CAN NOT change this ferritin based protocol. If you break it, no one will complain against you. But I may break your jaw after the shift in my chamber, and you are free to sue me ( nobody did, in fact kissed by some emotional Spanish and British doctors who understood the logic and my ultimate intention, save maximum life with available resources)
My Indian friends should try some simple protocol to triage patients as this thing will shoot straight up and remain for 6-8 weeks.
Surely that should count for something.


And yes, he says the time for testing is over: there is no point at this stage.

Please go through the comments of this expert, with hands on experience with both corona and Ebola.

Last edited by proton : 23rd June 2020 at 08:24.
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