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View Poll Results: Do you support the lockdown extension?
Yes 299 47.46%
No 244 38.73%
I'm unsure 87 13.81%
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Old 23rd June 2020, 09:54   #2521
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

One of my team mates Mom passed away last weekend simply because she was not admitted to any of the hospitals. She had a asthma attack in the middle of the night but 3 hospitals refused asking to take her to a dedicated Covid facility in the middle of the night. She passed away on way to Victoria after a silent heart attack.
In the normal times, she could have got timely treatment for asthma and there were good chances of recovery.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:23   #2522
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
3 hospitals refused asking to take her to a dedicated Covid facility in the middle of the night. She passed away on way to Victoria after a silent heart attack.
Very sorry to hear that. Imagine the anger and distrust that will be growing in that family against this system where incompetence trickled down from the top leadership to just about every one else in handling of this pandemic.

Tragically, many such cases will be reported and many will not.

Very hard to make peace with such situations, but hope they find a way.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:53   #2523
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Just wanted to point out the situation in Kerala. Two weeks back, one of my colleagues (in his late thirties) suffered a heart attack while at the office. We managed to take him to the nearest private hospital (some 5 KM away) within 10 minutes. They immediately admitted him, detected a massive block and conducted an angioplasty. Though there was a second attack, he managed to pull through and is now well on the way to recovery.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:00   #2524
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Tragically, many such cases will be reported and many will not.
I dont think any of these cases will be reported. Hospitals outright reject patients with fever, cold or any breathing difficulties. And like mentioned by the doctors in this very thread, these cases will outnumber the Covid casualties. But there are no tickers in TV/Print showing these numbers every minute. So they can be conveniently ignored.

There were many people making passionate appeal in this thread about not having to choose between an younger and older Covid patient "when" we run out of hospital beds. I wonder what their answer will be when someone close to them (God forbid ) is rejected for a simple treatable condition in favor of some mild Covid case. That too when we have enough resources to tackle it now.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:54   #2525
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
There were many people making passionate appeal in this thread about not having to choose between an younger and older Covid patient "when" we run out of hospital beds. I wonder what their answer will be when someone close to them (God forbid ) is rejected for a simple treatable condition in favor of some mild Covid case. That too when we have enough resources to tackle it now.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tria...hrome&ie=UTF-8

triage
/ˈtriːɑːʒ/

noun
(in medical use) the assignment of degrees of urgency to wounds or illnesses to decide the order of treatment of a large number of patients or casualties.
"a triage nurse"
verb
decide the order of treatment of (patients or casualties).
"victims were triaged by paramedics before being transported to hospitals"


This is supposedly in the hands of the doctors, but in reality is decided by unqualified bureaucrats. What do you think can be done about the bad decisions, made by laymen, which has landed us, and continues to keep us, in this mess?
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Old 23rd June 2020, 12:04   #2526
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post

Finally anyone demanding a lockdown should be made directly liable financially in substantive ways. If someone wants a lockdown, then they should pay for it out of their own pockets. There must be mechanisms put in to identify those who are asking for a lockdown and having them be financially liable. Corona is not being inflicted by people on others. But a lockdown is definitely a wilful act of infliction of suffering on others for our safety and benefit.
If people proposing and supporting lockdown are expected to bear the cost of the loss of the livelihood, can the people who support mass infection of the family member be booked for abetting suicide and murder?

Quote:
One of my team mates Mom passed away last weekend simply because she was not admitted to any of the hospitals. She had a asthma attack in the middle of the night but 3 hospitals refused asking to take her to a dedicated Covid facility in the middle of the night. She passed away on way to Victoria after a silent heart attack.
In the normal times, she could have got timely treatment for asthma and there were good chances of recovery.
Entirely unacceptable by any standards. This is due to the lack of training and empathy from the emergency department staff involved. It is not the same scenario everywhere. We have not shutdown our ER during the entire pandemic and saved a number of lives due to timely first aid and referral. And many heart attack patients did well as the ambulance arrival time and travel time to the Higher center was hardly few minutes due to non existent traffic and less crowded hospitals.

In fact we had an elderly patient who had cardiac arrest brought to the hospital within few minutes, resuscitated in no time and walked out of the hospital. I have been seeing helplessly such patient brought to ER after 30-40 minutes due to traffic and loose their life without medical care.

If we add the lost statistics then we should subtract the saved statistics too.

Last edited by aadya : 23rd June 2020 at 12:22. Reason: additional info and multiquote
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Old 23rd June 2020, 12:19   #2527
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by proton View Post
Logical fallacy of poisoning the well. You don't have to have experienced poverty..
What?

What logical fallacy about poisoning what well? You seriously thought that I was commenting on the background and the qualifications of this Red Dragon guy?

Let me make it quite simple.

Corona is an unfortunate crisis. But it infects a small number of people and an even smaller number succumb to the illness. For 95% of the infected, the disease has no substantive effect at all.

By contrast, a lockdown affects everyone. A very large number of people experience large scale suffering for a long time. Some die. The dead are typically unaccounted for. Millions are pushed into wretched circumstances that push them to make horrible decisions that affect everyone. Over a longer period, those circumstances end up bleeding out and affecting larger numbers of people. Lack of economic opportunity causes massive chain reactions that topple societies.


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If people proposing and supporting lockdown are expected to bear the cost of the loss of the livelihood, can the people who support mass infection of the family member be booked for abetting suicide and murder?
Who supports a mass infection of anyone? Corona is not something that the general people are inflicting on those getting infected. But a lockdown is a manmade instrument.

If an infection happens, it is not because someone purposely infected anyone. The infection spreads as people are going about their lives to earn a living for their families.

But a lockdown is purposeful infliction of suffering on people because some of us want to stay safe. There is nothing stopping people from voluntarily staying in. That is their choice. But to require others to be locked in and to starve for someone else’s safety is just fascist.

Last edited by mohansrides : 23rd June 2020 at 12:32.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 12:55   #2528
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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This is supposedly in the hands of the doctors, but in reality is decided by unqualified bureaucrats. What do you think can be done about the bad decisions, made by laymen, which has landed us, and continues to keep us, in this mess?
Well, at Mallya hospital, it was decided by the security at the gate. They did not even let the car in.

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Originally Posted by aadya View Post
Entirely unacceptable by any standards. This is due to the lack of training and empathy from the emergency department staff involved. It is not the same scenario everywhere. We have not shutdown our ER during the entire pandemic and saved a number of lives due to timely first aid and referral. And many heart attack patients did well as the ambulance arrival time and travel time to the Higher center was hardly few minutes due to non existent traffic and less crowded hospitals.
Good for your team and hospital. I dont think the hospitals would have rejected a heart attack or fracture or stomach pain patient. The problems come only when there are patients with fever or breathing difficulties. If you guys have been taking in these patients as well, then kudos
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Old 23rd June 2020, 12:59   #2529
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by aadya View Post
This is due to the lack of training and empathy from the emergency department staff involved. It is not the same scenario everywhere.
Isn't it also because of the fear that the hospitals have that the government will seal the hospital if it turns out that a covid-19 positive patient was treated there?

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...le31419244.ece
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/75121676.cms
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/...w/75396823.cms
https://www.newindianexpress.com/cit...t-2132603.html
https://scroll.in/article/959727/fea...m-higher-bills

Perhaps that is not the case anymore, I hope so. But it has certainly been the scenario in a lot of places for some time.

Last edited by am1m : 23rd June 2020 at 13:02.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 14:31   #2530
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

While this debate is endless, it’s the elected government which will decide what’s best for its citizens and everyone has to abide by it. I believe conditions would be far worse had the lockdown not been enforced. Streets in Mumbai are still quite empty compared to what it used to be before Covid, so people are certainly wary/afraid.

In Bangalore they have decided to enforce strict cluster lockdown again in certain places believing it to be the way to go.

https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.c...w/76517476.cms

Last edited by Cyborg : 23rd June 2020 at 14:33. Reason: Adding text
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Old 23rd June 2020, 16:27   #2531
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
Well, at Mallya hospital, it was decided by the security at the gate. They did not even let the car in.
I know how you feel because I have been through this at the start of the lockdown. I have previously mentioned this in the thread as well. The initial mayhem about the virus took many lives and few very close to me. That a man can die because a hospital refused to treat a dialysis patient is cringeworthy. I sympathise with you and thatís why the toll this lockdown is taking way higher than the actual toll of COVID and thatís the whole point of discussion. My condolences to you and your near ones.

Also, the security at the gate was not acting on his own. The orders must have been from the top and thatís the tragedy of it all.


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Isn't it also because of the fear that the hospitals have that the government will seal the hospital if it turns out that a covid-19 positive patient was treated there?
Perhaps that is not the case anymore, I hope so. But it has certainly been the scenario in a lot of places for some time.
Absolutely yes, the directives were such that many hospitals were shut to patients for normal illnesses as well. Even now, dedicated Covid hospitals are doing better than the non declared ones in terms of treatment since their agenda is specific. The fear is now lessening somewhat as you have mentioned but then the loss of lives will still hurt.

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While this debate is endless, itís the elected government which will decide whatís best for its citizens and everyone has to abide by it. I believe conditions would be far worse had the lockdown not been enforced.
If every elected government decided the best for the citizens then we would have a government for the life and there was no need for the elections I guess !! Problem here is nobody is holding the government responsible for the mess right now and thatís the tragedy.

If people are still okay with the lockdown after seeing how many folks are going about their daily chores and working hard to just reach their places of work risking everything, innumerable job losses and this con job of raising fuel prices every day then I guess the government is doing something right to get the message across of doing the perfect job.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 18:35   #2532
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Oh, the excluded middle!

Covid 19 is either very mild, or in a very few cases, fatal. Whereas that is certainly not a quote from any post, it is what a lot of this this discussion amounts to. The rest are ignored... but isn't it the rest, those who are not dying but who are very ill, who are taking up most of the hospital beds? (Excluding those spaces set aside for isolation rather than treatment, of course.)

As to hospitals turning away those suffering from other diseases and conditions, this is is a scandal, and the agony of those who are bereaved as a result is unimaginable. The guilty should (but probably won't) have their businesses (called hospitals) closed down. But does this have anything to to do with lockdown? Probably not. Are any of those places going to change when "lockdown," as such, is legally and officially over? I doubt it: they will still have the same reasons, good and bad, for fearing this virus entering their doors.

Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 23rd June 2020 at 18:38.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 20:03   #2533
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

I am afraid that with calls like below, and a fear crazed citizenry, the government will give in and take the easiest route to enforce a lockdown in Bengaluru again.


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Shut down Bengaluru entirely for 20 days: HD Kumaraswamy
Quote:
Former Karnataka chief minister HD Kumaraswamy on Tuesday said Bengaluru, the state capital should be shut down for 20 days in view of the rising COVID-19 cases instead of sealing a few areas.
Quote:
"Stop playing with human lives. It will not serve any purpose to seal a few areas. If you care for the human lives in Bengaluru, shut down the city totally for 20 days. Else, Bengaluru will become another Brazil. People's lives are more important than the economy," Kumaraswamy tweeted.
Link
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Old 23rd June 2020, 20:22   #2534
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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I am afraid that with calls like below, and a fear crazed citizenry, the government will give in and take the easiest route to enforce a lockdown in Bengaluru again.
I really wonder how he has the guts to say this when he himself celebrated his son's marriage with all show and crowd during the lockdown.

Lockdown is not the answer to COVID, physical distancing and hygiene is.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 20:23   #2535
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Default Re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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I am afraid that with calls like below, and a fear crazed citizenry, the government will give in and take the easiest route to enforce a lockdown in Bengaluru again.
Why would the government decide? The citizens themselves are a step ahead of the government and deciding to lockdown their constituencies.

Kanakapura constituency has decided to undergo a voluntary lockdown and the MLA and MP support it.
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