[ramzsys]

Made a quick trip to the farm and back: sweating in the 34C heat with the mask, layered clothes, glove.

The working class is treating this like an extended holiday. Men sitting together in railway tracks and gambling or simply chatting.

Many of 2 wheelers perfectly repeating the helmet method: keep helmet safe on the fuel tank and stop 50m before the traffic police and wear it -same with (even) the cloth based mask. The rest are like 'why even wear one?'

Hours of explaining to people at home doesn't seem to have driven home the point: as I reached home, a neighbor was chatting with my mom. She was describing how bad the situation is in USA, thanks to her daughter.

All this in a lockdown period so imagine how it will be once restriction eases up.

The lock down is a bold step from the government, it is already there and no point discussing whether it is the ideal first move. Where do we go from here? It buys us all a lot of time but what are we: the government as well as the citizens are doing with all of that time?

[saket77]

I fear that if this is what the people are doing in the lockdown, then just imagine what will we do once lockdown is lifted? Many will think that since the lockdown has been lifted by the government, this implies that the virus scare itself is no more.

[Miyata]

Eliminate lockdown and crucify humanity on a golden cross!

Extend lockdown and crucify humanity on a death cross or to be more figurative, iron cross!

While health care fraternity has been very proactive on the front lines and using every tool in their arsenal - combination of drugs / vaccines; masks/gloves/PPEs; ventilators - to save health and humanity, our folks from economics and governance fraternity may have failed big time.

We are struggling to come up with equivalent tools for the economy that health care folks are using - what drugs, PPEs, and ventilators will work for the economy? Government hand outs and reforms; appropriate aid to small and large scale sectors; a stimulus as shot in the arm for ailing economy; where people can work in shifts (avoiding crowding), use masks/gloves and any other protection to carry on with work - those willing and able; etc.

At my work place, even during "normal" times, janitorial staff was always scrubbing everything down to keep them shiny and possibly sterile! You get up for a tea/coffee at 10:30am, a janitorial staff dashes to your desk/chair to wipe it down. You go to the printer room and see another staff dashing to shine down the desk/chair...

In shifts of smaller numbers, the thing could still be continued with whoever is willing - of course, with all protection and precaution in place.

That way we kill neither humanity nor economy or more accurately, minimize fatality in both.

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

I am quite sure the lockdown will be extended to at least 30th April at most places and a staggered opening at others. This is the only way.

Absolutely.

Karnataka Chief Minister reiterated today that his government was in favour of extending the lockdown until at least 30th April. But the final decision would be made only after Sunday's meeting with the PM.

It is clear that even the expert committee is finding it difficult to choose one option over the other. Interestingly, the committee consisting entirely of medical professionals



professes that:

there is no medical reason to extend the lockdown beyond 21 days

Yet, they suggest

a phased exit at 2 weekly intervals

Report Source:

Originally Posted by itwasntme

KA

[naveen.raju]

Here's Kerala governments recommendation after lockdown. Divided into 3 phases (based on the number of cases in each district), this is almost like a lockdown. Something like this should be implemented for few months after the lockdown. I hope this will be implemented.

PHASE I RESTRICTIONS

1. No person shall travel outside the house without wearing face masks.

2. Anyone leaving his or her house will have to carry a valid piece of Identity (Aadhar,Passport Ration Card, Driving License etc.) to prove place of residence and explain purpose of travel.

3. Any establishment (private or public sector) operating shall mandatorily undertake proper measures of sanitation, providing masks and sanitisers, daily disposal of waste, provision of adequate supply of potable water as well as for cleaning purposes. Failure to do so will be tantamount to an offence under relevant provisions of the Epidemic Diseases Act, 1897 and Disaster Management Acts, 2005.

4. Occupancy of government vehicles should be restricted to two per vehicle excluding the driver and buses.

5. Buses/Vans carrying frontline care workers or other public servants should not exceed seating capacity of vehicle. All passengers shall wear masks while travelling.

6. Only one person per house will be allowed outside the house at a time for a specific purpose and for not more than 3 hours at a time (other than for exempted activities).

7. No person above 65 with any history of comorbidity (hypertension, diabetes) or undergoing any treatment for cancer or major ailments should be permitted movement outside house. However, where they have no assistance for meeting their household needs without leaving their house, they may obtain special passes under the existing mechanism, unless the assistance can be provided by volunteers, local bodies or palliative units. Comorbidity issues should be highlighted through communication campaigns.

8. Movement of private vehicles should be restricted with odd-even scheme in two groups for Monday, Wednesday and Friday and Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

9. There should be total clampdown on all vehicle movement during Sunday other than for critical services and emergency operations.

10. No gathering for any purpose more than 5 persons should be permitted.

11. No religious congregations to be permitted and all places of worship shall remain closed.

12. Government offices and banks may reopen with staggered 50 % roster-based attendance and follow a five-day week during the period of the restrictions.

13. Attendance at marriages and funerals should be restricted to 10 persons and that too only the nearest kith and kin may attend on such occasions.

14. Banks may follow 50% attendance but with normal work hours

15. Airline and rail movement for passengers into the State should be totally disallowed.

16. No entry of any person from outside the State during this phase other than what is permitted currently. Special checks should be done at the Kumily border where migrant labour cross over in search of employment in the plantations.

17. Total employees at any work site (other than Government Offices) shall be restricted to ten persons or 25% of staff strength whichever is higher. The owner of the establishment will be bound to observe this restriction. Failure to do so will be tantamount to an offence under relevant provisions of the Epidemic Diseases Act, 1897 and Disaster Management Acts, 2005.

18. Super Markets and Malls, Film Theatres, Bars, Conference Halls, and Centralised AC Rooms in hotels etc. with closed Air-Conditioning should not be permitted to be reopened.

19. Shops selling merchandise like Jewellery, Textiles, Electronics, Fancy ware should not be allowed to be opened during the first phase.

20. Small and Medium Enterprises or any private establishment employing more than 5 persons should ascertain that the employee does not have any of the symptoms associated with the COVID infection. The owner of the establishment will be bound to assist the employee suffering from fever or cough to visit the nearest health centre. Wilful omission on the part of the owner or the employee will be punishable under the relevant provisions of the Epidemic Diseases Act, 1897 and Disaster Management Acts, 2005.

PHASE II RESTRICTIONS

1. Autos and Taxis may be allowed but restricted to total of one and three passengers respectively. The owners of the vehicles should ensure that hand sanitisers are kept in the vehicles and are made available to the passenger. All occupants in the vehicle should compulsorily wear masks.

2. Bus travel for short distance within a city or town may be permitted subject to a strict discipline of one person per seat only, without any standing passengers permitted and all passengers to compulsorily wear masks. Bus owners are required to provide hand sanitisers before allowing entry of passengers into buses.

3. Activities under NREGS to be allowed with protocols (use of cloth masks and sanitisers)

4. All Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSME) shall be allowed to reopen with protocols (viz. use of cloth masks and sanitisers)

5. Attendance at marriages and funerals shall be strictly restricted to 20 persons.

6. Total employees at any work site or private organisation shall be restricted to 20 persons or 25% of staff strength whichever is higher.

7. To ensure physical health, people may be permitted to walk for at least half an hour in the immediate vicinity (within a radius of 0.5 km) of their residence before 7.30 a.m. in the morning, keeping a safe distance of at least two meters from the nearest person.

PHASE III RESTRICTIONS

1. Inter-district bus transport may be allowed with 2/3rd capacity subject to observing social distance protocols such as compulsory face masks, hand sanitizers and no standing passenger policy etc.

2. Domestic flights for essential passengers, doctors, health workers, patients etc. may be permitted to be operated at 50% of the seating capacity of the vehicle. Aircrafts should be fully sanitised and the same recorded for subsequent official verification prior to each flight.

3. International air travel and travel from other parts of India by air may not be allowed till full relaxation of lockdown restrictions in the State. But where NRKs stranded in various countries, who are keen to return to Kerala return home in phases must be necessarily brought home by air, they should be examined under the following protocol:
3.a All returnees should go through serological test for screening (where results are available in 5-10 minutes if positive and then moved to quarantine. A confirmatory RTPCR to rule in or rule out Corona should also be followed within a day or two. If they are asymptomatic and RTPCR negative they can be quarantined at home with Telemedicine / Tele-mentoring.
3.b Till such time as such a protocol can be ensured, the returnees must be put on compulsory quarantine of 28 days at designated places viz., Corona Care Centres and not at their respective homes. For this purpose, selected hotel facilities can be converted into Corona Care Centres and NRKs to be shifted compulsorily to these centres. Depending upon their capacity to pay, they may be assigned to these Hotels converted into Corona Care Centres. House Keeping and Front Office staff in these hotels may be trained (crash course) on essentials of Para Medical services, while in quarantine.
3.c However, NRIs who submit documentary evidence of COVID test done in the countries from where they come to India with relevant details and have tested negative, can be given free access and stay at home under surveillance for 14 days, if the test is as per specifications. The District Medical Officer shall certify the acceptability of the test conducted abroad. The District Administration shall keep track of all such cases.

4. Entry into the State may be allowed but all new entrants to the state should undergo 14- day home quarantine. Border Control procedures must be established jointly by Health and Police Departments. District Administration should institute special tracking mechanisms for monitoring their movements. Mobile positioning apps or where available, RFID bracelets may be used for this purpose.

5. Universities, Schools and Colleges shall be opened ONLY for the purpose of holding Examinations. Seating arrangements should follow the safe distance rule and halls should have adequate supply of hand sanitisers at entry points.

6. All IT companies may be allowed to open partially. Staff engaged in production and development of software applications should continue to work from home.

7. Shopping malls/stores may be allowed to function with restriction of one person from a family going inside, limiting total number that can be in a store/shop at a time for ensuring one metre physical distance at least between customers. Cooperation of mall/store owners may be sought to encourage home delivery. Police/Health/Civil Supplies/Labour Department officers may make random visits to ensure this protocol.

8. A system of taking prior appointment through phone and online should be introduced so that shopkeepers can space the number of customers visiting the shop, taking into consideration the size of the shop such that social distancing is maintained and crowding inside or outside shop is regulated.

9. Hostel and residential facilities may be opened. The owners and the management to have full responsibility of preventing overcrowding, allowing for safe distance of at least one meter at all time between occupants and promptly ensuring that persons suffering from fever and symptoms visibly found in COVID patients are immediately taken to the nearest health centre. The risks for not complying with this stipulation shall solely be on
the owner of the facility and wilful negligence in this regard will be punishable under the relevant provisions of the Epidemic Diseases Act, 1897 and Disaster Management Acts, 2005.

10. After the judicial courts opens after vacation, the following regulation may be suggested to the Hon. High Court, for their functioning:
10.a Regular sitting in Quasi-Judicial bodies such as permanent Lok Adalath, Consumer Forum, Ombudsman can be reduced to once or twice in a week.
10.b Filing of fresh cases in various Quasi-Judicial bodies can be done Online.
10.c Video conference facility can be utilized in Sub Ordinates Courts at least in one of the Court Centres in every district. Necessary guidelines for this may be issued to District courts and other Subordinate Courts.

11. Online sale of liquor may be started by BEVCO.

12. Religious congregations in and outside mosques, temples, churches etc., large marriages, political meetings or conferences or cultural gatherings shall continue to be prohibited during this phase.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by alpha1

You are absolutely right about the philosophical question but let me modify it a little bit:

When I did not create and release this virus, and when I am not symptomatic and have no travel history, and I have been tested to be non-infected and thus a non-carrier of potentially fatal disease you DO NOT have the right to tell me NOT TO work for your safety, or my safety, or anyone else's safety, if YOU ARE NOT WILLING OR ABLE to pay me for wages lost.

Testing everyone who is asymptomatic should be the government's responsibility.** If collective society is unable to test and certify people who are not infected, then we do not have a right to ask anyone to stay home without compensation of wages. That is immoral and plain wrong.

Also, it is not only about being fed. Each family has so many other needs besides just food. Some have chronic medical issues that are endangering their lives and those of their family members even in the present. Talking about my colleague, Covid-19 may or may not infect his father (or his mother I don't exactly remember). But, kidney failure is killing him or her now. So, that is not a what-if. It is a certainty. Even if we argue that hospitals are available for his parent for dialysis, we have to accept that my colleague's ability to pay for the dialysis procedure has eroded due to his prospective job loss. Will the government pay for the dialysis treatment?

This argument that the lockdown is to protect our healthcare workers from being overwhelmed is pretty shallow if you ask me. Because if this lockdown continues, the same government will mandate that every doctor in the land work pro-bono for the foreseeable future. Because no one will have the money to pay for healthcare products and services.

Even if we set aside food and medical needs, a lockdown is essentially stifling the essence of human consciousness, which is basically ASPIRATION - work hard today to generate wealth and security for your family for a better tomorrow. That concept goes for a complete toss. Especially so for the weak sections of society. They will get pushed back by decades.

Are we willing to accept that sort of human cost for a pathogen with a 5% fatality rate (only in infected people)?

Please do not come back saying that one has to be alive to have aspirations. That is the whole point of citing the 5% fatality rate - ONLY 5% of the infected population will actually succumb. To solve this crisis, instead of attacking the problem of healthcare aggressively and accepting some losses in the interim, we have created huge problems in the economy and opened the door for aggressive destruction of economic output and of the collective purchasing power which has a direct bearing on human life. I really really hope that someone somewhere is tracking the fatalities that are occurring because of this shutdown. That will be the statistic which will tell us all how we fared in our collective decision making.

Please remember that while everyone likes to point to China for their aggressive lockdown strategy, even China locked down only Wuhan and Hubei. They certainly did not lock down the whole country as we have done in India. In fact, as we speak, China's notorious wet markets have reopened for business.

Fact is that China never paralyzed itself economically speaking. And we are happily doing so.


** Testing everyone should be free and should be the government's responsibility. But, in light of the economical challenges, I am willing to accept a compromise if the government says that everyone should get tested and pay for the test by themselves. That would be an economic burden on many. But, it is a burden that would be far less than losing entire paychecks.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Edit: @Thad E Ginathom; nothing against your post Quoted it for a different reason and that was forgotten entirely later while writing the above.

No problem. I started reading the NYT presentation wondering how it connected to my post, concluded that it didn't really, but went on to view it all anyway. Interesting: thankyou/

Originally Posted by mohansrides

... Finally, let me say this. Your claims that so many people will die are just that if a lockdown is lifted are just that, claims ...

Even the deepest mathematical projections from the professionals are just forecasts. "Claims," if you care to use that word. But we can't deny them any more than we should accept them as what is going to happen.

And I don't think that you, numbers aside, can deny that returning to more people mixing with more people is going to lead to more infections, and, yes more deaths. But lets put the deaths aside for a moment, because yes, they will be only a small percentage of the percentage that catch the disease. A much larger percentage will be very or even seriously ill.

I asked this question yesterday, and I don't think it has been addressed. How will the economic restart be when staff and workers are quickly becoming too ill to work anyway?

Whilst I feel that a slightly longer lockdown might reduce that, I don't know. Maybe we wait another two, or four, or whatever, weeks... and the same thing happens.

Even economically, the ultimate pain of the restart might be greater than that of the lockdown.

This post is meant to be a question, not an answer: answers welcome!

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Even if we set aside food and medical needs, a lockdown is essentially stifling the essence of human consciousness, which is basically ASPIRATION - work hard today to generate wealth and security for your family for a better tomorrow. That concept goes for a complete toss.

Complete exaggeration.

[v1p3r]

So basically we're effed either way. Lockdown - economic crash, millions of jobs lost, possible hunger, once-in-a-lifetime setback to the economy. No lockdown - healthcare collapse, rampant illness, economic loss. Either way, not enough money, not enough food, possible societal reshaping.

I do not envy politicians currently. For all the times they did diddly squat and we paid the price, they now have to choose between the devil's alternatives. Of course, we still pay the price.

[srini1785]

Here we go : Odisha becomes first state to extend lock down till Apr 30.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coro...=home-bigstory


First in a series of states.

P.S : Please delete this post if already posted.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Complete exaggeration.

Is it? I don't think so at all. What we are discussing here is shutting down the economy for a protracted amount of time, meaning a few months. If that doesn't push people to despondency, what else will it do? Will every family out there be so full of hope and positivity akin to a 90s KJo movie? Pray, tell me.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

..But lets put the deaths aside for a moment, because yes, they will be only a small percentage of the percentage that catch the disease. A much larger percentage will be very or even seriously ill.

I asked this question yesterday, and I don't think it has been addressed. How will the economic restart be when staff and workers are quickly becoming too ill to work anyway?

But, whether or not my statement is an exaggeration, your's certainly is. By saying that a large number of people will fall seriously ill, you are saying that the economy will not be able to function even if it were to open.

Here is the official statistic from a still-open NYC which is the epicenter in the US - 151000 infections in a population of 18 million. Let us assume that all 151000 people are unavailable for work. Still, that leaves 17.85 million New Yorkers who are not sick. If we assume that even 40% of that number is the working age population, we are looking at a very healthy headcount for the economy. If we go by those numbers, and even tack on a greater percentage of infection in India, I don't think we will ever be in a situation where there is no one to do the job. The biggest economic strength (and the biggest challenge) of places like India are the sheer number of people available for work in the economy.

The real issue here is ACCEPTANCE OF RISK. That is what is driving decision making on either side. We have tacitly accepted great risk to our economy, while still-open New York has accepted the risk of infection and mortality.

My point is that it is better for us to accept the risk of infection here rather than to shut down the economy indefinitely when we do not even know if that is the exact solution.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

So basically we're effed either way. Lockdown - economic crash, millions of jobs lost, possible hunger, once-in-a-lifetime setback to the economy. No lockdown - healthcare collapse, rampant illness, economic loss. Either way, not enough money, not enough food, possible societal reshaping.

Could be. But humans are a resilient lot.

I do not envy politicians currently. For all the times they did diddly squat and we paid the price, they now have to choose between the devil's alternatives. Of course, we still pay the price.

Too right! It was not in anyone's manifesto to describe how they would deal with a major disease, and nobody asked. Furthermore, it is almost unrealistic to expect politicians to be first-rate managers, which is what this situation requires. World over, more and more politicians are trained only in... politics. Tweaking an economic policy a little according to their agenda (which got voted for) may be within their competence, not coping with world-scale disasters. It is almost unreasonable to expect them to be able to do it. But they have to.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Is it? I don't think so at all. What we are discussing here is shutting down the economy for a protracted amount of time, meaning a few months. If that doesn't push people to despondency, what else will it do? Will every family out there be so full of hope and positivity akin to a 90s KJo movie? Pray, tell me.

You already told me, in words of far greater dramatic power than you are using in this post. Yes: hard times ahead. The loss of family to disease is already causing despondency.

But, whether or not my statement is an exaggeration, your's certainly is. By saying that a large number of people will fall seriously ill, you are saying that the economy will not be able to function even if it were to open.

It might be. I was hoping it would be an exageration!

Here is the official statistic ... ... ... The biggest economic strength (and the biggest challenge) of places like India are the sheer number of people available for work in the economy.

Yes, that is true. India is highly unlikely to be left short of people in absolute numbers. But only the menial workers can simply be replaced by someone from the large population still out there. Others need teaching and experience.

My point is that it is better for us to accept the risk of infection here rather than to shut down the economy indefinitely when we do not even know if that is the exact solution.

indefinitely is simply not on the cards. Isn't going to happen. Makes a good dramatic point, though. To be honest, I don't think you need to be that dramatic: for an indeterminate amount of time is probably scary enough.

All the possibilities are scary.

[Nalin1]

Originally Posted by naveen.raju

Here's Kerala governments recommendation after lockdown. Divided into 3 phases (based on the number of cases in each district), this is almost like a lockdown. Something like this should be implemented for few months after the lockdown. I hope this will be implemented.

Here we go!. Whatever we might feel, this is the only solution going forward. Start moving in first gear to use our favourite language. Except that keep going in first, very slowly move to second and so on.

Yes, it is a horrible road that we are driving on. But we can't stop the car. Just need to keep moving until we hit the highway .

Yes, it is a herculean task to pull off these kind of moves successfully in such a densely populated country with zero discipline.

[carboy]

Comment from my friend: Long lockdowns are a great way for people with enough money & resources to get by for a long time to reduce chances of their infection.

[avingodb]

It's high time the government updates include numbers of daily recoveries. That will assure people at large. Otherwise, the atmosphere is beginning to look grimmer than it should be. China did that by releasing a number of daily recoveries and once that number grows one begins to get a sense that the govt. is truly on top of the game.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by avingodb

It's high time the government updates include numbers of daily recoveries. That will assure people at large. Otherwise, the atmosphere is beginning to look grimmer than it should be.

Are the state authorities doing this? In Kerala, the Chief Minister's update at 6pm everyday provide with these statistics. And I agree, the regular updates help to keep the anxiety levels down and give some kind of assurance to the public.