[DCEite]

Originally Posted by scorpio2107

This has just increased the complexity of the problem. What could have been home delivered with zero contact has now turned into us taking out the car and travelling almost one km to pick up groceries while in contact with the delivery guy. I'm all for the lockdown but barricades like this just add to the problem.

The administration does not want your essential items to be delivered from far off places.

They must have released a listing of nearest vendors of essential services in your area (read groceries, vegetables, medicines and milk). You need to connect with those.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by JayKis

A few countries did try that approach initially (Singapore) but is back to lock down days.

Good point. But even Singapore's strict lockdown is still less strict than our normal one. There is that to be considered. Also, they didn't go back to a strict (their version of) the lock down, they made it stricter, which means they were even less strict before this.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...id-19-measures

"And you should exercise only in your neighbourhood."

(But you CAN go out and exercise! I'll take that sort of a lock down!)


"It is not an offence if you don't go out alone."
"Cafes like Starbucks and Coffee Bean can keep outlets that serve hot food and cooked meals open,"

(just some examples)

And the big one: "Under the enhanced Jobs Support Scheme, the Government currently subsidises 75 per cent of the first $4,600 of gross monthly wages for 1.9 million local workers.
This support, in the initial circuit breaker month of April, will be extended through the month of May, said Deputy Prime Minister Heng Swee Keat"

"He also said that foreign worker levies due in May would be waived and another $750 rebate would be given to employers for each foreign worker they employ."

IMHO the definition of the lockdown is not the same and the level of support they can offer to those locked down is not the same.

[Safety is Param]

Originally Posted by am1m

Good point. But even Singapore's strict lockdown is still less strict than our normal one

If we were to compare like that, then we also need to take into account the "% of population" complying with Government guidelines, and also the total population.

I haven't read reports about Singapore citizens attacking their Medical fraternity or health workers who are working for the citizens' well being.

We easily tend to forget that -

1) All this started as a request for "self exercised" restraint.

2) When pt. 1 didn't materialize, the Government announced lockdown on March 24. That speech is available in public domain.

3) We are the 2nd largest population in the world. Add "non compliance from various segments of population" to that and it definitely becomes challenging.

4) Some people just can't sit at home, so they keep finding various ways to go out.

Pls. allow me to clarify that what's mentioned above is not "for lockdown" or "against lockdown" debate. What I am trying to say is - to pick one is not easy, and there are many variables.

Just came across this - not sure about its accuracy, but still sharing because only simple steps such as these are going to keep the virus at bay, not rocket science - till a vaccine is available.

There are reports today of traffic snarls at Electronic City, Bellandur, Town Hall, JC Road, Singasandra, etc in Bangalore. I hope people are able to main the required distancing from each other.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

If we were to compare like that, then we also need to take into account the "% of population" complying with Government guidelines, and also the total population.

Exactly. The two countries cannot be compared. That is my point. Neither can we use the same response to this situation. (BTW, I didn't make the initial comparison, I was responding to a post that made the comparison.)

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

1) All this started as a request for "self exercised" restraint.

I don't see it that way. The Janata Curfew was announced and then the lock down immediately after. I see it as something that was decided and done. No question of 'asking' people to stay home and checking how it goes. It was mandatory. Am certainly not saying it was the wrong decision, not at all.

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

There are reports today of traffic snarls at Electronic City, Bellandur, Town Hall, JC Road, Singasandra, etc in Bangalore. I hope people are able to main the required distancing from each other.

Will just cross-post: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...ml#post4792644 (Rants on Bangalore's traffic situation)

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

Just came across this - not sure about its accuracy, but still sharing because only simple steps such as these are going to keep the virus at bay, not rocket science - till a vaccine is available.

Absolutely, absolutely. So let's start thinking in these terms, that's all. Let's see how we can relax some things using medically sound precautions like masks and steps like that. Not go back to full-on life as normal. But not keep extending complete nation-wide lockdown again and again either. And punish those who refuse to adhere to these simple steps. Not punish everyone including people who are complying and are willing to comply. Which is exactly what this nation-wide strict lockdown ends up doing.

Originally Posted by Nalin1

Even though a staggered lockdown is what is being planned right now as the authorities too do not have any other option, to pull it off in India is next to impossible!

I think we can. (I may be wrong certainly.) First the government needs to communicate clearly what is allowed. And stick to that. Not change it the next day because some other state did something else. Then punish those few, and I think it will be only a few who will flout guidelines even after relaxations. Whoever they may be.

I can only speak for what I can see so granted it may not apply throughout. But majority of people are complying. Yesterday people were standing patiently outside a store following distancing well. Wearing masks. Just one 'covidiot' without a mask tried to squeeze in. The store guys refused him entry. But what we are saying with complete lock down is shut the store, impose sec 144 and cane everyone who is willing to comply as well! Because of one covidiot? Let's handle him instead and let the rest go about their business safely.


But like you correctly pointed out this discussion may be just academic. I think the government has no choice and we have to make relaxations work somehow to the best way we can.

[Nalin1]

Even though a staggered lockdown is what is being planned right now as the authorities too do not have any other option, to pull it off in India is next to impossible!.

As it is, on any normal day, chaos reign here. 50% here, 20% there, red zones, green zones, 30% workforce, some services open, some closed, some partially open etc!.

And we can only imagine what level the chaos and confusion will go to!. But since continuing with this kind of a shutdown is also not feasible anymore, we need to shed a lot of Indianness to come out of this one.

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by am1m

Good point. But even Singapore's strict lockdown is still less strict than our normal one. There is that to be considered. Also, they didn't go back to a strict (their version of) the lock down, they made it stricter, which means they were even less strict before this.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...id-19-measures

"And you should exercise only in your neighbourhood."

(But you CAN go out and exercise! I'll take that sort of a lock down!)

Had mentioned Singapore just to showcase the country's change in approach.

In Singapore, the govt says something, people obey it Verbatim (except for maybe in Little India) since violations can be very expensive. (A place where Eating/drinking in the MRT (local train) beckons a $500 fine!) So the govt would be confident of people following lock down rules.

In India its a very different proposition! Have seen some folks do the exact opposite of what the government says because they dont like the govt!

On the financial support from the government , it would be really great to have that in India but then the government needs to first have a record of the citizens, their income and have a direct distribution channel to make funds available to the citizens. All the above three items, are political hot potato items,as you probably know.

[lapis_lazuli]

Originally Posted by Nalin1

Even though a staggered lockdown is what is being planned right now as the authorities too do not have any other option, to pull it off in India is next to impossible!.

As it is, on any normal day, chaos reign here. 50% here, 20% there, red zones, green zones, 30% workforce, some services open, some closed, some partially open etc!.

And we can only imagine what level the chaos and confusion will go to!. But since continuing with this kind of a shutdown is also not feasible anymore, we need to shed a lot of Indianness to come out of this one.

Absolutely! Add to this, the effect of mis-communication or high-handedness of cops AFTER the relaxation. For sure, there would be guidelines, that would not percolate fully till the lower rungs of the police. That is where problems would start : most of the relaxations would be with conditions and "conditions" are GRAY areas, strictly subjective and prone to personal interpretation. So a lot of "atrocities" would be reported which would point to the hyper activity of the police!

I am also fearing an increase in petty and heinous crimes, thefts and degraded law and order in general, as there would be starvation on the streets, unleashed fully!

[locusjag]

The TN state health department is quoted in today's "The Hindu" as saying - broadly - that COVID19 restrictions will remain for many months to come. Mass gatherings, offices, entertainment spots...every one of these will be tightly regulated. And China itself expects restrictions to continue well into 2022, as per another article today in the same newspaper.

[karan0009]

3,219 Arrested In Noida, Greater Noida So Far For Defying COVID-19 Lockdown: Police

As many as 3,219 people have been arrested across Noida and Greater Noida in a month - an average 107 arrests a day - for violating lockdown restrictions, according to police data.

Altogether 3,681 people were booked for defying lockdown curbs during the period that saw registration of 944 first information reports (FIRs), stated the police data from March 23 till 7 pm of April 22.
"Between March 23 and April 22, 3,681 people were booked for violating the lockdown of which 3,219 got arrested and 944 FIRs were registered," the police data stated.

The FIRs were registered under Indian Penal Code section 188 (disobedience to order duly promulgated by public servant) and violation of prohibitory orders put in place under CrPC Section 144, which bars assembly of four or more persons.

Separately, five FIRs were registered under the Essential Commodities Act, 1955 in which five people were booked and three of them arrested till April 22, the data said.

"During the period, 63,273 vehicles were checked across 200 barrier points in the district and challans issued to 12,118 of them for lockdown violation. Another 807 vehicles were impounded for the offence and Rs 1,47,400 were collected in fines," according to the police data seen by PTI.

3,000 arrests is a big number. Is there any other city with such a high number of arrests ?

https://www.ndtv.com/noida-news/3-21...police-2217189

[TRR]

Originally Posted by rdst_1

https://m.economictimes.com/news/com...w/75281927.cms

As the above article states -

India Inc views the government directives on resumption of industrial activity that hold company directors and management accountable for any employee testing positive for Covid-19 and ask for penal action, as both unnecessarily harsh and impractical. Industry also reckons these rules may disincetivise resumption.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

But, if the government is going to move ahead with these directives about penalising businesses for the virus, then the government will remove all doubt in people's minds that the administration has no grasp of basic economic realities.

I mean, the connection between livelihoods and lives should not be that hard to grasp. And how on earth are businesses responsible for a virus that they did not create?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Genuine question -- Does any one on the forum have hard facts with regard to news circulating on WA that employers will be held responsible if any employee who contracts Covid-19 and the employer will face penal action under the disaster management act. Would those who are knowledgeable or are from the legal profession please share what they know.

There has been a clarification from the MHA on this, yesterday afternoon itself. Surprised no one posted this earlier.

An Economic Times article, on the same. And a fact check by India Today, attributing it to a WhatsApp forward, misinterpreting guidelines under the Disaster Management Act, 2005.

Quoting from the above fact check -

As per the MHA order issued on April 15, penalties under Disaster Management Act, 2005, are applicable if the offence occurs with "consent, cognisance or negligence of the employer". The order further says strict guidelines and SOPs (standard operating procedures) are to be followed in workplaces, offices and factories regarding social distancing and sanitisation of employees.

But nowhere is it mentioned in the order that the employer or factory owner will be arrested or penalized, or an FIR lodged as soon as an employee tests positive for Covid-19.

I maybe inadequately informed on this matter but as far as the Act saying action will be taken against the employer only if the offence occurs with "consent, cognisance or negligence of the employer", I find this to be fair, if implemented appropriately.

Of course, an employee who contracts the virus outside shouldn't be notched up to the employer. But if the employer refuses to allow said infected employee to WFH or to take leave, for the appropriate period, and if this refusal results in other employees contracting the virus, I believe some accountability can be chalked up to the employer, again only if this is proven. Most certainly, businesses aren't responsible for a virus they didn't create, but if they allow (through proven negligence) the virus to spread among the rest of the workforce, its only fair that they are held responsible to an extent.

[rdst_1]

Originally Posted by TRR

Quoting from the above fact check -



I maybe inadequately informed on this matter but as far as the Act saying action will be taken against the employer only if the offence occurs with "consent, cognisance or negligence of the employer", I find this to be fair, if implemented appropriately.

Thanks. I was just about to post the MHA clarification which I just received,but you beat me to it while I was reading it. 👍

[V.Narayan]

@TRR, @rdst 1, thank you for sharing your valued inputs and links. It is some relief. The clause of being able to arrest the MD of a company still stands as stated in the Chief Secretary's letter. What they are trying to say is that "We {ie the Govt} retain the right to jail you if we in our judgement deem it justified. But right now as the economy needs to get off the ground out of the goodness of our hearts we wont do it." The unspoken part which every entrepreneur/ Board member worth his salt will understand is that now petty Govt officials who know little about Covid-19 or running factories will spot a new opportunity of rent seeking. Make no mistake of that. Those members who work for the Govt please don't get offended. These are the sad facts of our life.

I don't blame the bureaucrats alone. Some Chief ministers have been stating that they will attack District Commissioners if Covid-19 cases increase in their district. I mean how stupid is that.

This is my interpretation as an investor who has to live with these rules. I am not responding to those who feel otherwise.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

@ "We {ie the Govt} retain the right to jail you if we in our judgement deem it justified. But right now as the economy needs to get off the ground out of the goodness of our hearts we wont do it." .

But the letter posted above seemingly states that there is no such clause, implying no such enforcement. Or is there another letter that supersedes this one?

[Safety is Param]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The clause of being able to arrest the MD of a company still stands as stated in the Chief Secretary's letter.

Sir, kindly refer this link from TOI. The headline reads "CEOs won’t be punished if staffers test positive: Govt"

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/75338207.cms

On a separate note, even if this clause exists, how would one prove that the affected employee contracted the virus inside the work premises?

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

Sir, kindly refer this link from TOI. The headline reads "CEOs won’t be punished if staffers test positive: Govt"

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/75338207.cms

On a separate note, even if this clause exists, how would one prove that the affected employee contracted the virus inside the work premises?

Why dont the government release a GO explaining this? One cannot fight in court based on a ToI article where someone "explains" a GO. Clear communication has been a big issue during these testing times. It is always left to interpretation.

Regarding proof, have you ever been slapped with a 5X/10X electricity or water bill? Try explaining to the officer to give you proof while fighting it out. You will be asked to first pay the full amount to prevent disconnection and then take it up for redressal.