[m8002?]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

The Aarogya Setu app has an "e-Pass" section (coming soon). In my opinion this "e-Pass" may become like your personal risk-rating.
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- RWAs would insist on low-risk ratings from maids and other service providers.

In effect, the government need not make the app mandatory. The scared society, that we see around, will make it mandatory for any meaningful transactions to be done.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Ironically amusing, another 'Chinese' Idea.

Exactly. There were people questioning whats the harm in having this data if you have nothing to hide. Please see how China uses this.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...llance/552203/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_s...lance_in_China

They even use this to publicly shame you tracking you in real time. If you are travelling in a train, the bill boards in that compartment will show messages that you are a defaulter on some loan.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2...isted-in-china

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/05/73894...nas-panopticon

[Miyata]

I have not yet installed this app (Aarogya Setu). Will wait a while to evaluate possible effects and side-effects.

I am hoping I can install it on my backup phone up using some virtual number / email id.

Also, this thread/post seems to have turned course and moved away from "lockdowns" to "Aarogya Setu"...Hope the mods see it fit to put this app on a thread of its own.

Much insights are to come from this - safety, security, transgressions, positive impacts, negative repercussions, etc.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by m8002?

They even use this to publicly shame you tracking you in real time. If you are travelling in a train, the bill boards in that compartment will show messages that you are a defaulter on some loan.

Thanks, but where do you read this? Can you share some more info.

Not that I am defaulter yet, but this sounds very intriguing

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Thanks, but where do you read this? Can you share some more info.

Not that I am defaulter yet, but this sounds very intriguing

Updated my post with the NPR podcast links.

Originally Posted by Miyata

I have not yet installed this app (Aarogya Setu). Will wait a while to evaluate possible effects and side-effects.

I am hoping I can install it on my backup phone up using some virtual number / email id.

Also, this thread/post seems to have turned course and moved away from "lockdowns" to "Aarogya Setu"...Hope the mods see it fit to put this app on a thread of its own.

Much insights are to come from this - safety, security, transgressions, positive impacts, negative repercussions, etc.

Even I have not yet installed it. Now that they have made it mandatory, I am confused if that becomes the "permit" to access the public roads and office.
Agree on moving the Aarogya Setu app posts to another thread.

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Thanks, but where do you read this?

Some aspects of highly invasive and public-shaming from China's mass surveillance has been in the news for quite some time. I recall some of my colleagues (from China) mentioning this as well.

One sample of this -

a user is alerted that they are close to a debtor, the user can then view their personal information. This will reveal their name, national ID number, and why they were added to the debtor list. The debtor can then be publicly shamed or reported to the authorities if it is deemed that they are capable of repaying their debts.

What makes it more dangerous is the fact that China (the regime) has known to be rife with human rights issues/violations.

Are we headed that way? Hopefully not. But who is to say! Data can be used multiple ways with statistics and strategic sampling of data playing its critical role in establishing any label of choice to any citizen anywhere.

Hopefully this app will be put away once the purpose gets served.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

Our own apartment residents had a heated argument yesterday about this issue. Some wanting to allow maids while some are opposing it. I wonder where all these news websites got their information from. None are providing any official order as a source.

There is no specific order stating what domestic helps can do or not do. In the latest MHA relaxation order, effectively, apart from in containment zones and/or specifically prohibited activities like barbers, spas & salons, ALL activities have been allowed as long as they are consonance with the general laws of India.

RWAs can choose to what they want as per their own bylaws.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PIB_India...68081896878080

[caffeineAM]

Originally Posted by Miyata

Hopefully this app will be put away once the purpose gets served.

And therein lies the rub. There is no sunset clause.

[The Rationalist]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

The Aarogya Setu app has an "e-Pass" section (coming soon). In effect, the government need not make the app mandatory. The scared society, that we see around, will make it mandatory for any meaningful transactions to be done.

When asked to kneel, there are many who are ready to crawl. It’s a wonder that we have remained a democracy, this place would be any dictators dreamland. Television is fuelling fire to mass fear psychosis. The Corona virus itself would be mortally terrified if it watched Indian channels.

[Hayek]

Frankly, the GOI and several state governments seem to have let themselves fall into the trap of endless mission creep, which is going to destroy the Indian economy - and cause enormous disappointment and disillusionment with potentially scary consequences when people find that this strategy does not work.

I supported the lockdown when it was first declared in March. It was obvious that we had far more cases than reported, the disease was spreading quickly, we had not taken steps through February to prepare for the aftermath, and you needed a time out to flatten the curve. BTW, a lot of what needed to be achieved through the lockdowns has been achieved. We have flattened the curve (look not at the linear scale of cases but the log scale - the absolute number of cases per day WILL rise in a country like India with a very low infection rate, as long as the daily percentage increase is not rising, we are ok), we have made progress in testing (close to 1 mm tests, and a lot of great work being done in tracing infected folks in cities like Bombay), and have prepared to treat folks (protocols in place, quarantine facilities, and dedicated Covid beds / wards). The one other reason for a lockdown was to buy time for a quick fix cure - something simple like an existing, safe vaccine ( BCG) or drug (eg Hydroxychloroquin). We now know that the quick fix is not available - what we have is Remdesivir, a patented drug which is approved for intravenous use for the most sick patients - given its cost in terms of infra needed to administer it (even if we got free doses), it is of no use for most Indians. Any vaccine is likely 12 to 18 months away.

So we now need to declare victory and start reopening the economy, while getting people to take reasonable steps to maintain physical distancing and reduce the risk of infection. Instead, as is obvious from guidelines that allow a district to be declared a green zone only if there have been no infections for 21 days (and let’s remember, large districts in India have close to 10 mm people each - 2.5x the population of countries like New Zealand), we seem to have moved the goal post to trying to stop Covid through lockdowns - which is impossible. Lots of the policies we are formulating (making CEOs liable if employees get infected or don’t use Arogya Setu, declaring an entire housing society with 2000 residents a containment zone if 1 person is infected etc) seem to be designed with this objective in mind. That is crazy. We also seem to have forgotten that Covid is NOT a death sentence - worldwide data suggests that 80% of patients don’t even know they have been infected, and less than 5% of the balance 20% (reflected in detected cases) die. I have seen otherwise sensible people in my society make statements such as, “Let’s not go out for grocery shopping. Do you want to die?” - that is a function of the fear psychosis which our government and media have created.

All that will happen with this approach is we will impose immense pain economically and psychologically on people, before reaching the conclusion that we should have reached by now - we can’t stop Covid until we have a cure or vaccine, and so have to learn to live with it. There will be an economic cost to living with Covid - tourism, restaurants, malls will all be hit. But there is no reason to stop all “non-essential” economic activity, or to treat patients as if they are criminals, or to threaten to impose criminal charges on employers if an employee becomes infected, even if that employee becomes a super spreader in the workplace.

Time to lift the lockdowns, move from a rules based approach to advisories but monitor case trends and be prepared to re-impose local and targeted lockdowns if the case spread in a region threatens to overwhelm the healthcare system in that area.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

If you liked that video, you are gonna definitely love this. This is couple of weeks old, but very relevant.

Absolutely spot on. I have always maintained that the government and the media are stoking the fear and that we have to gain perspective on this crisis. In fact, here are a few times that I have said it...

Originally Posted by mohansrides

And until the media and the government stops reporting a daily ticker tape of test positives and fatalities, we are royally rogered as a society.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

So while we are scaling up healthcare and devising quarantine protocols, let us also work to view this virus in perspective. I mean, if we are going to report infections and deaths on a daily basis, let us also...

• Report the number of people who came up negative in tests and also say why those people were tested in the first place. Let's report that someone who tested positive had hung around with say a 100 people, and that we tested all 100 and got 10 positives. This is already happening now, but without any emphasis on the 90 who tested negative. Let us change that to report both positives and negatives.
  
  
• Report the number of infected people who are not yet in a hospital; and the number of cured people who did NOT need in-patient hospital services during the illness; i.e. those who beat the virus by just staying home and managing the symptoms conservatively.
  
  
• Report Covid deaths by age of patient (for every month and year). But, also report the deaths due to auto accidents, heart disease, diabetes, H1N1, TB, and other major afflictions in our society during the same time periods and for the same age groups.

These three metrics will give us a true risk profile of this virus vis-a-vis the economic cost of any measure that we adopt. It will allow the administration to advise people on reasonable risk and to devise protocols for getting people to self-quarantine.

If someone tests positive then..

1. They are quarantined (either by self or by force) for 3 weeks. Pass a law that people who break quarantine will face jail time, or a big fine, or both, depending on the severity of the case.
   
   
2. Those who the positives contacted should be intimated to get tested within 48 hours. Those who don't report for testing should be reported in the papers along with a look-out notice. Again jail time or fines or both will apply for absconders beyond 72 hours unless reasonable explanations are provided. Like if the contacted person got hit by a bus, then he or she obviously cannot come to get tested.
   
   
3. Also, mandate that those break quarantine and those that do not report for testing will be denied healthcare services should they need them.
   

People who test negative are free to go.

Finally, present the risk profile to people and allow them to make their own decisions. Really, this is the best we can do. But, whatever, we do, we HAVE to build a true picture of this virus's risk profile. Else, the paranoia will sink us.

And so has @Lobogris and a few others.

Originally Posted by Lobogris

We have completely lost perspective in tackling this matter.

______________________

We are finally seeing reconciliation on part of the government. Remains to be seen how they respond when the cases spike. But, the choice of words from the CM did strike me as meaningful - "Time to Reopen Delhi. Ready to live with Coronavirus."

______________________

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

When asked to kneel, there are many who are ready to crawl. It’s a wonder that we have remained a democracy, this place would be any dictators dreamland. Television is fuelling fire to mass fear psychosis. The Corona virus itself would be mortally terrified if it watched Indian channels.

You nailed it sir. @Lobogirs also had mentioned this earlier. I am really afraid that we have given big government a glimpse of how we will keel over at the slightest suggestion.

_______________________

Originally Posted by Safety is Param

..
A person deciding not to install it would also not be able to make use of the app's features, and in doing so may put himself and others at risk as the proximity of a "Carrier" remains unknown for him/her.

Anyone willing to take that risk should by all means not install it and see what unfolds going forward and take a call accordingly.

You are absolutely right. People should have a choice as to whether or not they want to install the app.

If given a choice, I think that I respectfully won't. Constantly looking at the risk next to me would drive me freakin mad and drive me into a fear paralysis. I may live or die. But, while I am alive, I don't want to be remain fearful.

[Safety is Param]

Tweet from Bangalore Police Commissioner

[vivek95]

Originally Posted by Hayek

Time to lift the lockdowns, move from a rules based approach to advisories but monitor case trends and be prepared to re-impose local and targeted lockdowns if the case spread in a region threatens to overwhelm the healthcare system in that area.

You have summed it up perfectly and spoken my mind. I would have never been able to put it across so nicely due to lack of good vocabulary and language. Thanks for this post.

Lockdown of varying degrees have been experimented around the world and it is clearly evident that the virus is re-emerging in small or big numbers post the easing down of lockdown in different countries. However, 80% are still recovering well and in India, the death rates are still very low and we probably have one of the highest percentage of asymptomatic positive cases. Having had first hand experience of dealing with patients, I think its about time to accept that whether we lift the lockdown today or after a few months, the virus is going to mark its presence. So, mankind is better off adapting with this situation. I did not know that the green zones were identified based on literally "zero" cases, so there is a high chance we will soon catch positive cases cropping up in these green areas when asymptomatic people mingle with the susceptible individuals. Green to Red will happen just like that going by the Government's knee--jerk approach.

Healthcare that has been neglected since decades cannot be revamped over a few months time. People are either ways dying, covid or not. Take it from me, say you are 60+ individual with comorbities. Presently in India, your chances of dying with MI, Metabolic complications, Sepsis, Pneumonia ( non-Covid sepsis or Pneumonia ), intracranial hemorrhages etc are many times higher than that due to Covid-19. Let's prioritise things right.

If moderators reset this poll, my vote would be clearly against the lockdown.

--Dr.Vivek

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by vivek95

You have summed it up perfectly and spoken my mind...

moderators reset this poll, my vote would be clearly against the lockdown.
--Dr.Vivek

Those of us who have been against the lockdown have been clear about the purpose of the isolation - a temporary measure to buy time for preparing our systems for handling those infected. In the case of India, there are no systems to begin with with, and gearing up to handle infected patients would mean revamping our entire health care system. I see that we are still importing even face masks and N95 raw materials (N95 grade, not the homemade substandard substitute) from China - a damning indiction of our administration and its false assurances. Melt blown fabric factories take six months to set up, but the Chinese did it in 12 days, I doubt we've shown that sort of urgency in anything we've done for the health care system so far.

But, to be fair, it would be near impossible for any of us, against the lockdown, to actually implement it if we were in the Administration. A look at the Brazil situation should convince us of that. The ability to dictate what is right and what is wrong lies with those who have the power to spread their hypnotic messages and not with those who think rationally. The slow change in thinking is again because the influencers themselves have come to realize the futility of staying away from the virus. It will not be long before the next poll on this very subject will show a reversal of positions as the reality of this virus dawns on everyone.

On the other side of this war is a simple automaton with just one purpose for its existence - infect, multiply, spread. It will win easily against a complex organism that is unable to see it and whose very existence depends on close proximity to others of it's kind.

Infect, multiply, spread, done!

[GTO]

Originally Posted by INJAXN

Can we add another poll - "Do You support second lockdown?" The current poll is for the first lock down and does not reflect to the true picture.

Originally Posted by dealer

I request the moderators to please reset the polls and have the community vote again.

Done, guys. Fresh poll has been added.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Hayek

We also seem to have forgotten that Covid is NOT a death sentence - worldwide data suggests that 80% of patients don’t even know they have been infected, and less than 5% of the balance 20% (reflected in detected cases) die.

I have been reading this 80% cases are asymptomatic here (also by Dr. Vivek) and in other places. Does this mean that the rest 20% are serious cases and need hospitalization (as opposed to self-quarantine)? Or is there a subset of this 20% who need hospitalization and rest recover by self-quarantine? What is this percentage?

In essence, is this the progression: Not infected --> Asymptomatic --> Self-quarantine --> Hospitalization --> ICU --> Death?