[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by vivek95

Sorry for an insignificant post but of all the metros, Pune in particular has totally become lunatic .... Absolutely foolish ways of implementing lockdown right from day one.

+1 to this

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

Only one way to describe the methods of officials each enforcing their own methods all over the country, is that by the Joker “Madness as you know is like gravity, all it takes is just a push”. Most of the officials right now remind me of the Joker, anarchy is their grand plan I guess.

+1 to that

My experience dealing with the Indian bureaucracy indicates that if you find a bureaucrat, especially a senior one* acting in a bizarre manner vis-a-vis the aam janta look behind to the politician behind him/her and the 'informal' but very real instructions given to the bureaucrat. This draconian and ineffective behaviour has, without a doubt in my mind, the hand of the local political leader.s

*like the IAS heading Pune Municipality and IPS who is Pune Commissioner of police

[Nalin1]

We wanted to show the world-

You guys allowed the virus to spread without acting on it quickly and now struggling! Watch us now!. How we nip it in the bud with a nuclear weapon. Actually it is the same weapon that you guys have, but did not use it properly.

Forget bud. It is now a banyan tree. And on top of it, we have burnt down the forest also around.

Headless chickens would have handled the crisis better!.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Nalin1

Headless chickens would have handled the crisis better!.

No, they wouldn't. You can see how they are doing in Britain (My mother country).

[Fordlover88]

Details of today evening's press conference.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

No, they wouldn't. You can see how they are doing in Britain (My mother country).

I don’t think our Government has any hand in preventing the mortalities. There is a major difference in the number of people dying here vs most western countries for some unknown reasons, unless you feel NHS is worst than Indian hospitals.

What we are experiencing is something similar to what humans do to caged animals. It will be foolish to expect developed countries like UK or USA do such barbaric things to their citizens.

Yes, certain people can feel safer with this lockdown but can’t they simply stay put without Government orders? We have hurt so many people much harder than what Virus would have hit. Everything closed at count 600 and now things being opened when count is over 10 times. People not allowed to go back to their homes as they will spread the disease, now it’s Ok as these people never came from abroad and are not virus carriers. Can go on and on..

Most people have got Actual money overseas, here - 25 % less TCS ( which is essentially tax collected at source and is to be refunded back) Loans without collateral but at Interests and will have to see if Banks will actually lend, not even a Rupee of actual benefit.. all blah blah as usual with Zero actual benefits...

[Thad E Ginathom]

Turbanator, it probably is true that access to high-quality medical help, even intensive care, is easier, and costs less (free, basically) in England than in India. It is true also that my feelings are coloured by being British and horrified. But I am not alone: the rest of Europe, at least, has been horrified by Britain's management of the NHS and handling of the crisis. As I see it, there is only one head of state less competent than Britain's PM (Oh wait, Brazil is way up there) and he isn't Indian.

On the other hand, am I championing India's handling of the virus quite so much now as I was a few weeks ago? No, I am not.

[The Rationalist]

Below is something I got to read, written by an Epidemiologist Dr.Raman Kutty.

‘ In late 1988 or 1989 I read a story in BMJ. There was a ‘personal column’ where doctors wrote about their personal experiences. The HIV epidemic had started to be a pandemic, and that was the number one global medical issue. (It had hardly come to India, and as usual our leaders were making foolish statements like how we are protected because of our ‘moral code’, which, apparently, is appreciated by the rest of the world). One doctor, who had recently graduated from UK, and who had gone to a tiny African country as a missionary doctor, was recounting his experiences. He had found that the people there were blissfully unaware of the threat looming over them. They had a permissive attitude to life, enjoying life to the full. Sexual mores were lax, and it was not considered abnormal for male teachers to seek sexual favours from their grown up female students. Young women crossed the river from the little town where he was stationed, to go to the big city. There they led a life of ‘sin’ to earn enough to enable them to come back home and settle down to married life. The missionary in the doctor was shocked to see the moral degradation, while the doctor in him feared for their lives.

So one day he gathered some young men and lectured them on AIDS. He painted a gruesome picture, describing the various complications it could lead to, and mentioning what a horrible death it would be. He emphasized the fact that all this was caused by sex with multiple partners. He thought that he had sufficiently put the fear of death into them, when a young man tentatively asked: ‘Reverend, how long would it take for me to die if I get this disease?’ ‘May be a year, may be less, Sometimes 5 or more years if you are lucky’, the doctor answered. ‘Is there any guarantee that I won’t die of malaria or typhoid or dysentery before that?’ The young man asked.

Doctors typically, and perhaps justifiably, think that health is the only thing that matters. Economists, who think a life is worth living only if you can realise its potential through a full range of economic activity, call it ‘the monotonic view’. The clash of these viewpoints is at the heart of the controversy raging across the world now. Both groups are right, if you look at things from their point of view. But both can’t be right, it is illogical. Such is the conundrum called life!

When we think that poor people, people trapped in impossible situations, are risking their lives by breaking the curfew, we often assume that they are foolish. Far from it; the truth is that they are much better at the calculus of life and death and have weighed their options instinctively. Most have no choice. Hence I think this debate about whether to continue the curfew or open up is meaningless. ‘

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

am I championing India's handling of the virus quite so much now as I was a few weeks ago? No, I am not.

You are getting paranoid, it was ok when everything was locked down as you were always concerned about yourself. Fair enough. I can understand your position.

Just think for a day if you have to live a life of a daily wage earner or a factory worker who lost his job or a waiter at a restaurant, list is endless. But you will get a drift, there is much more beyond life per se for common folks who live each day as it comes. No one in right mind should have taken such drastic step. UK or USA may even have more deaths but at least they faced the issue bravely. And have supported their people with actual benefits.

A while back there was a news that we are spending 2000 cr on ventilators and 1000 cr on migrants. Now we all know how things work in India, do you think purchase of ventilators for such high amounts is beneficial over support to actual sufferers? Especially when the people on ventilators across India maybe fewer than 100. And we still don’t have any IS or BS specifications for ventilators so basically anyone can supply anything at whatever agreed prices.

The hardships everyone is facing today is far more lethal than the disease and now even government have realized this fact and sort of raised hands, sugar coated but you get the message.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by vivek95

Reason why Sweden model will eventually be emulated across the globe, not a best solution, but sustainable in the long run

Stockholm, the capital of Sweden is under complete lockdown. It is the suburbs and other smaller places that are not under lockdown.

On another note I have noticed that the doctors in our apartment complex and their family members are the only ones who don't wear masks. This sort of made me figure out what you've said about the paranoia and that we may going overboard with the masks, quarantine, lockdown and other measures.

[ABHI_1512]

It startles me no end that there are people who still think that the abrupt lockdown was necessary. A lockdown of some sort was necessary for sure but to shut the whole country for so long was surely a mistake. A state like Arunachal Pradesh is not the same as a state like Maharashtra. The entire north east is still insulated from large scale infections but the paranoia is immense and that’s the result of the constant shenanigans about the deadly virus.

The handling of the migrant workers is so pathetic that every morning has become a pain in the heart just by looking at the front pages of the newspapers. Now someone in the authority has the galls to announce that the migrants can never have COVID since they were not in touch with people coming from outside the country ! Funny part, around 170 migrant workers were found COVID positive after returning to Bihar. After the worst possible that can happen to them , this comes as a double whammy. We as a collective society should hang our heads in shame for the way they were treated when they could have been easily transported in a phased and disciplined manner with clear instructions. Some people will think what’s this sudden sympathy about the people we don’t care about in normal times but the truth is, people herded like cattle’s and beaten with sticks when all they wanted is walk back to home, it takes a real junk of a heart to not sympathise with them. The real sad part, those junk hearts are in the position of authority !!

[v1p3r]

Amidst all the screaming on the news, the trolling on Twitter, the ridiculousness that pervades Whatsapp and its forwards, this forum and this thread remain, for the most part, a source of dependable, verified information. It also reminds me that during this darkest of hours, there are still good, decent people in this country.

I am very grateful for this.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

You are getting paranoid, it was ok when everything was locked down as you were always concerned about yourself. Fair enough. I can understand your position.

I try to recognise my privileged. And I am currently struggling with the fact that the life that I lead and expected to lead simply may not return, or may not do so for a long time. That is my selfish concern.

Just think for a day if you have to live a life of a daily wage earner or a factory worker who lost his job or a waiter at a restaurant, list is endless. But you will get a drift, there is much more beyond life per se for common folks who live each day as it comes.

Yes, it should have been understood and dealt with from the start. I have only one person to deal with, and I will pay her for as long as it takes, whether I bring her inside to do the work or not.

No one in right mind should have taken such drastic step. UK or USA may even have more deaths but at least they faced the issue bravely.

We know each other well enough for me to openly say that this is foolish talk. The leaders of UK and USA have not used any bravery whatsoever. I suspect that one, the biggest bully, will, one day be shown to be an abject coward, and the other is just a different kind of egotist. I do not believe that either have, for one minute, put their people before themselves, nor will they. And unfortunately, they are not blessed with management skills, and the lack of them is painfully obvious. Please do not give any glory to those too: they don't deserve it even if they are lucky with what happens over the next few weeks. But

And have supported their people with actual benefits.

Yes, that is true.

A while back there was a news that we are spending 2000 cr on ventilators and 1000 cr on migrants. Now we all know how things work in India, do you think purchase of ventilators for such high amounts is beneficial over support to actual sufferers? Especially when the people on ventilators across India maybe fewer than 100. And we still don’t have any IS or BS specifications for ventilators so basically anyone can supply anything at whatever agreed prices

. I don't know. Nor do you know that there might not have been thousands, or might not yet be.

The hardships everyone is facing today is far more lethal than the disease and now even government have realized this fact and sort of raised hands, sugar coated but you get the message.

I have noticed it, on this thread, even from the beginning . It still seems to me that keeping people separate was an important thing to try to do to cut infection. Perhaps it was not done well.

What now? I don't know. Thankfully, nobody will suffer because I don't know. I am not even sure it fair to expect political leaders to know. They didn't do the training either. But that is where the buck stops.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by vivek95

What is the end point to this ??

If I am not mistaken, the raison d'être for the lockdown and other measures was not the infection per se but a concern on the lack of adequate infrastructure - hospitals, hospital beds, ICU's, PPE, ventilators and other medical equipment that would be needed and are sorely lacking if the infection reached large levels like Spain / Italy.

The lack of infrastructure rather than the infection is also the reason for the increase in deaths in USA, UK, EU etc.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

A while back there was a news that we are spending 2000 cr on ventilators and 1000 cr on migrants. Now we all know how things work in India, do you think purchase of ventilators for such high amounts is beneficial over support to actual sufferers? Especially when the people on ventilators across India maybe fewer than 100. And we still don’t have any IS or BS specifications for ventilators so basically anyone can supply anything at whatever agreed prices.

DISCLAIMER : I am not going to get into the political debate. Just stating facts here.

Ventilators are not being purchased from outside but are made by BEL, Bangalore. I know this for a fact. There is also one more indian company ( bangalore/ mysore based ) which has the main contract from GOI. I am not sure what they cost but not anywhere near what imported ones cost.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

The leaders of UK and USA have not used any bravery whatsoever. I suspect that one, the biggest bully, will, one day be shown to be an abject coward, and the other is just a different kind of egotist. I do not believe that either have, for one minute, put their people before themselves, nor will they.

Good that we agree on few points. Regarding handling of the situation in west, I still feel that they have reacted as the situation demanded instead of locking everything at the word go.

Do you really think anyone in matured economies could have locked down the whole US or UK under curfew when the count was 600? Trump did stopped the flights from China but they had so many infections from Europe. It’s easy to say that lock everything and build infrastructure but this can happen only in countries like ours where commoners have a limited say.

Anyways, its good that a UK citizen feels or at least used to feel safer in India

Originally Posted by joslicx

Your consternation would sound more convincing if the Brits and the Americans hadn't lost so many lives and India so few ( relatively speaking )

Everyone knows that some countries have seen far more deaths but I won’t agree that we have seen lower number just because of the lockdown as outer hospitals never got overwhelmed. Yes, we are better prepared at this time but there is something more to all this, unknown perhaps.

I don't think any nation right now knows what really is the right strategy to combat the virus.

I agree, that’s the reason everyone wanted a gradual response instead of a sudden break. Anyway’s we hardly can do anything except to suffer, either by disease or from the affects of the strategies.