[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by Ithaca

He is unable to get transporter to move stuff from the wholesale market to his shop. And he is scared of the cops.

Ask him to fill this up and get permission for the goods transporter - https://epassnmpolice.pce.ac.in/

Mumbai police is handing out Essential service pass, one has to approach the local police station.

[Ithaca]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

Ask him to fill this up and get permission for the goods transporter - https://epassnmpolice.pce.ac.in/

Mumbai police is handing out Essential service pass, one has to approach the local police station.
Attachment 1984721

Will pass on this information to him. Thank you, blackwasp, for highlighting this.

[kaushikr]

Logically the question sounds correct, but what will be the impact of a full blown pandemic is difficult to estimate.

We can see people behaviour now, wherein even with assured supplies, there is hoarding etc.. When the state/government loses control of the situation and narrative, the scenario changes.

Law and Order, caring for the most vulnerable and any support from the State Machinery will cease to exist. This is the scenario in my mind and that is why the lockdown is preferable to not intervening or intervening mildly.

In any case, the poor and the vulnerable will be most impacted

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Warning: Controversial Post

Some may say we are saving lives. Which we should. But it needs to be in the context of how many lives do we think we are saving? Across the globe in 3 months, officially 20k have died. Let's assume India were to lose 40k. Each death is a personal tragedy and I am not belittling that. As per WHO India has ~2.6 million TB patients. Of these roughly 1100 people die because of TB each day. Would you stop the whole nation and spin millions out of employment for that?

The economic challenge (read recession) we are now going to face will probably kill many more than CV would. A small request - respond only with thought and facts and not with nationalistic bombast. I am as patriotic as the guy next door.

Dear Moderators, if this post is too touchy for the times and Team BHP please feel free to delete it.

[khanmaj]

I just watched an NDTV report on labourers stuck at Delhi -UP border. It saddens me. The government has resources to evacuate people from China, Italy, Iran and other countries (read rich people) but unable to help theses stranded people. There may be similar scenarios at other places in the country. Bash me as much as you want but I will say that rich have been the carrier of the virus and poor are paying the price.

https://youtu.be/lkhsOTeJcCk

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by kaushikr

lockdown is preferable to not intervening or intervening mildly.

Originally Posted by d3mon

Look at what is happening in the US right now - because of the delayed actions, it's quickly climbed to the no-1 position

Originally Posted by pramods

clear indication and indication of whats coming. Everyone knew one day
...we all are in this together.

Originally Posted by msdivy

The supplies in the local pharmacy, groceries are running out. Unless the supply is restored ...

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

A very good point indeed. While Modi tweets that supplies will be fine, the reality is very different

Originally Posted by TRR

Pray tell, what would have been the adequate notice period required in this instance?

I think once millions of informal sector employees die from Covid
...Now I realize why some babus in the government have such thick skins.
entire country is in this together.
Why stop at TB?...
Ahh yes, the Donald Trump way of thinking. Is it better to save the economy and let millions suffer and rot
So its not like India's economy would have bloomed sky-high...

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

same mistake the United States made, by underestimating the threat and not preparing.
Korea knew it was coming, they are after all a neighbouring country of China. But so are we.

Originally Posted by DeKay

... telling everyone during the announcement that all ''groceries, medicines, essentials will be available during the lockdown period, do not worry''
2. We'll require ventilators and ICUs to
3. The whole point of staying home is Flattening the curve. ...
We do not want to be in a position where doctors need to choose whom to save and whom to not. That's the situation Italy is in right now.

Originally Posted by AdiSinghV12

I respect your opinion but the COVID-19 and TB are totally different in terms of how quickly they multiply ...

Originally Posted by poloman

If this is what lock down looks like why are we getting psychic sitting at home. Let everyone go out and do what ever one wants. Let thousands die, so be it..! As Narayan sir puts it infection and deaths are so normal in India. What a tragedy..!!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

...or is it the only politically safe option available in times of uncertainity. Not having this knowledge I assume senior medical advisors and WHO advised the PM.
What I cannot comprehend is why do it with zero notice,
...Would you stop the whole nation and spin millions out of employment for that?
The economic challenge (read recession) we are now going to face will probably kill many more than CV would.
I am as patriotic as the guy next door.

I'm only really replying to @V.Narayan because I agree completely with one of his points.
I believe that we are not going to be in any better position to handle anywhere close to the fraction of cases that other countries are aiming to handle by flattening the curve. We are just going to be as pathetic as ever given our overall poor healthcare system and our huge population of poverty stricken people. So, what we are really say is "we are all in this together", but when push comes to shove, we the elite class will have a much better chance of coming out alive by flattening the curve, but "don't know about you guys - why don't you eat cake?" Flattening the curve does nothing for the ordinary Indian citizen who has no access to even mediocre healthcare.

@V.Narayan - You are a true patriot, because you truly followed the leader. Those who accuse you of not having common sense and "hoarded", sorry, wrong term, "stocked up for bad times", clearly didn't trust their nations leader. Though, they are right about the zero notice - every expert said "must be done NOW!" But the administration as usual just ignored the fact that they were dealing with humans.

Coming to the economy, like I said here,
we must set aside our personal emotions and think of the nation and its billions. For most of them, dying is nothing, happens much too often, and one the reasons - lack of basic health care. Why do you want them to suffer because you are afraid that you or your loved ones will die if infected by this one virus? And unlike Donald Trump, it is not for any personal gain (winning the next election or benefiting himself and his friends), it is so others may live. Let us do our part in sacrificing for the greater good - without lockdown the economy with be back to its sorry old state, but at least millions will have jobs and their survival assured (that chance of a CV infection killing any one of us will still hold)
We elites were the people who brought in the virus and spread it knowingly, also those running the country negligently let us do it, brazenly ignoring the consequences. No "hindsight" excuses please - just go through the timeline of this virus and see for yourself how much time and information we had - and the ease with which we could have clamped down on the few international travelers.
If you do not agree with me, please explain with facts. (and no, I'm no patriot - don't believe in nations at all, sorry).

[Turbanator]

^^
You are absolutely right. No one is asking anyone what were the authorities doing in Jan- March? They should have shut the borders and only allowed people who mandatorily go with 14 days quarantine in some designated places/ hotels.

Anyways, that time is gone now and what we are trying to do now can be done in more humane way. As a first step, they should take everyone back to their homes, get transport buses or army vehicles. If they have any doubts on spread about diseases from these guys, have an extra quarantine for all such guys or villages they go.

At one hand SC is issuing notices to the Government to call back people from Iran and here less than 10 km from SC no one is taking plight of these guys.

This articles sums up

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/timesofi...l-defeat-both/

[vivek95]

Originally Posted by khanmaj

I just watched an NDTV report on labourers stuck at Delhi -UP border. It saddens me. The government has resources to evacuate people from China, Italy, Iran and other countries (read rich people) but unable to help theses stranded people. There may be similar scenarios at other places in the country. Bash me as much as you want but I will say that rich have been the carrier of the virus and poor are paying the price.

I really empathize with these poor stranded people but I see these large crowds/gatherings as potential clusters of COVID-19 outbreak. An outright failure of the entire lockdown exercise. I truly am interested to know what is compelling these labourers to mass evacuate from Delhi.

Are they homeless and what makes them think they are not potential asymptomatic carriers of COVID-19 virus ? And thereby spread to the villages they are headed to ? What exactly is driving their helplessness ?

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by vivek95

I really empathize with these poor stranded people but I see these large crowds/gatherings as potential clusters of COVID-19 outbreak. An outright failure of the entire lockdown exercise. I truly am interested to know what is compelling these labourers to mass evacuate from Delhi.

Are they homeless and what makes them think they are not potential asymptomatic carriers of COVID-19 virus ? And thereby spread to the villages they are headed to ? What exactly is driving their helplessness ?

Doctor, to answer your questions with what little I know. They are walking back to their villages because they have no daily earning left in the city. They need to earn each day to pay the rent for the juggi-jhopadi they live in 7 to a room. The landlords, at least in Delhi, in the villages subsumed by Delhi-NCR, are a sharp nasty lot. Once they sense the tenants have no employ out you go. My old maid servant who served us 25 years and then moved on to self employment was about to be thrown out similarly till my wife called the landlord to confirm we'll pay the rent. That is why they are trudging home even though it is a few hundred kms. They may have enough cash for 4 to 7 days of food and need to get home by then. The fact that such a simple and well known reality of Indian cities was not thought of by the administration and political leaders reflects only on themselves.,

[TRR]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

^^
You are absolutely right. No one is asking anyone what were the authorities doing in Jan- March? They should have shut the borders and only allowed people who mandatorily go with 14 days quarantine in some designated places/ hotels.

Anyways, that time is gone now and what we are trying to do now can be done in more humane way.

The borders were shut to the affected countries as soon as WHO recognized this as a national emergency. Just because the highest echelons of power did not make a fanfare/tweet on it, does not imply that the government did nothing. Please take a minute of your time and read the below links.

1) First restriction - This was last updated on February 14, 2020 and clearly imposes restrictions on all foreigners who were in China on or after January 15, 2020. Also suspends visas to all virus hit countries at that point of time.

2) Second set of restriction - Last updated on March 03, 2020 and clearly imposes restrictions on entry of all foreigners who were in Peoples Republic of China, Iran, Italy, South Korea and Japan on or after 01 February, 2020.

I'd say the government went above and beyond by repatriating Indians from Wuhan, Iran etc by arranging special flights even when Wuhan was in lockdown. These guys were quarantined for the appropriate period.

With regard to Indians and others who were already in India, please refer point (v) in both advisories - "All foreign and Indian nationals entering into India from any port are required to furnish duly filled self declaration form (including personal particulars i.e. phone no. and address in India) and travel history, to Health officials and Immigration officials at all port." - These guys were tracked from the day they landed in India. The fact that they thought that they were too important to listen to the government restrictions is exactly what led to the government imposing a mandatory lockdown. When the government asked them to stay at home for the quarantine period, a significant chunk didn't listen. You don't have to take my word for it, just refer the links below:

1) Punjab's super spreader - These are lines picked up from the article directly - "Indian authorities in the northern state of Punjab have quarantined around 40,000 residents from 20 villages following a Covid-19 outbreak linked to just one man. The man, a preacher, had ignored advice to self quarantine after returning from a trip to Italy and Germany, officials told BBC Punjabi's Arvind Chhabra."

2) People avoiding the self quarantine - Person stamped for quarantine in Mumbai caught on train in Secunderabad. Had gloves on his hand to hide the stamp

There are a lot more similar cases, if you'd but search for it. This is what happens you ask us Indians to abide by voluntary quarantine. If you ask me, this whole lockdown should be blamed on such blithering idiots who forced the government's hand and brought on a mandatory lockdown.

Further, with your proposal of "mandatory quarantine of 14 days", read about what happened to the Covid incubator Diamond Princess cruise ship in Japan. The headline says all you need to know. Note that the ship's passengers were quarantined for the 14-day period on board the ship itself. What's startling is this line in the article - "Japan has confirmed that a woman who tested negative and left the coronavirus-hit Diamond Princess cruise ship later tested positive, raising more questions about the effectiveness of quarantine measures."

I'm not a blind supporter for the government, but the way they're being portrayed here is as if it was being run by a group of headless chickens. More than the set of ministers, I think our bureaucrats did a fairly decent of job of trying to contain the virus spread. The biggest mistake they did? Trusting Indian citizens to stay at home.

[vivek95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The landlords, at least in Delhi, in the villages subsumed by Delhi-NCR, are a sharp nasty lot. Once they sense the tenants have no employ out you go. My old maid servant who served us 25 years and then moved on to self employment was about to be thrown out similarly till my wife called the landlord to confirm we'll pay the rent. The fact that such a simple and well known reality of Indian cities was not thought of by the administration and political leaders reflects only on themselves.,

Thank you Sir. I think I got my answer.

I am a Doctor, but first a human being, so let me keep aside the medicine for sometime. My observation is that - this notorious virus is breeding and spreading faster on the grounds of "inhumanity" rather than its own "infective power". So, good luck to the mankind, no wonder this virus has been unleashed

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by TRR

This is what happens you ask us Indians to abide by voluntary quarantine.
The biggest mistake they did? Trusting Indian citizens to stay at home.

Absolutely, they should have done better, that's exactly what I am saying. Right from this Preacher to some cluster in Bhilwara and down south, there are enough examples. Did none of these advisors thought, how are they going to track the guys who have returned from the susceptible countries?

Note that the ship's passengers were quarantined for the 14-day period on board the ship itself. Japan has confirmed that a woman who tested negative and left the coronavirus-hit Diamond Princess cruise ship later tested positive, raising more questions about the effectiveness of quarantine measures."

Exactly, now think India as a large Ship and this lockdown. Can anyone commit that there will be no one left after this lockdown of3 /6/ 9/ or 12 weeks?? And how are they going to handle when this opens up, whenever.

[khanmaj]

Originally Posted by TRR

The biggest mistake they did? Trusting Indian citizens to stay at home.

State governments efforts have been commendable in discouraging the spread with their limited rights and resources but the battle was lost when people were brought back from Wuhan, Rome and Qom and left to roam around freely.
They must have been quarantined under authorities observation right from the beginning.

[TRR]

Originally Posted by mvadg

We elites were the people who brought in the virus and spread it knowingly, also those running the country negligently let us do it, brazenly ignoring the consequences. No "hindsight" excuses please - just go through the timeline of this virus and see for yourself how much time and information we had - and the ease with which we could have clamped down on the few international travelers.
If you do not agree with me, please explain with facts.(and no, I'm no patriot - don't believe in nations at all, sorry).

I forgot to reply to you in my above post. However, please consider this as an add-on to the points in my post above. I see that you've posted in every Covid thread with the same "No "hindsight" excuses please - just go through the timeline of this virus and see for yourself how much time and information we had - and the ease with which we could have clamped down on the few international travelers.". But not in one place do you seem to be making any concrete suggestion. Its fine and dandy to criticize the government, and constructive criticism is very valuable. But you only seem to be criticizing for the sake of it with these vague statements. Please do enlighten me as to what measures could the government have taken? Dealing with passengers from abroad? Please refer to my above post for actions taken by the government on the same.

Secondly, I might be wandering off-topic but it's laughable how you think travelling abroad is still a bastion for the "elite". A large section of the returning population were workers from countries in the Gulf or people on pilgrimage to places like Mecca. Another section of the returning diaspora were students, many of whom would've gone abroad on loans and life savings. So cut it with the accusation of government pandering to these "elites", cause the government isn't controlled by these classes, nor would they care for them. The Indian media chooses to highlight cases like Kanika Kapoor and such because they make headlines. The others fail to make the limelight, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Absolutely, they should have done better, that's exactly what I am saying. Right from this Preacher to some cluster in Bhilwara and down south, there are enough examples. Did none of these advisors thought, how are they going to track the guys who have returned from the susceptible countries?

Again, a very vague statement saying "done better" with Indians returning from abroad. I'm willing to hear places you think the government should have done better with controlling the virus. Should they have jailed them? On what charges and where since our prisons are overcrowed"? Because anything short won't work, as we've seen now with the mandatory lockdown violations (not considering essential runs as violations at all).

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Exactly, now think India as a large Ship and this lockdown. Can anyone commit that there will be no one left after this lockdown of3 /6/ 9/ or 12 weeks?? And how are they going to handle when this opens up, whenever.

I don't think the purpose of the lockdown is to bring the virus rates to zero. Far from it. It's simply an attempt by the administration to flatten the curve and give our health care system a fighting chance to save people. Else, we'd have cases like in Italy where ventilators are pulled from the old and given to those with better chances of survival.

The administration has time and again responded to valid suggestions.

1) Tell police to behave better? Check

2) Announce measures for the poor for their survival? Check

3) Allow moratoriums for loan repayments and interest on loans/EMIs? Check

4) Better handle the migrant labour solution? At least we have something

By all means, criticize all you want, but please at least provide a legitimately possible solutions without resorting to fear-mongering. But for now, I think I'll stick to my stand that the administration seems to be dealing with it adequately. I think they could have done better with the migrant workers. But since I don't have a suggestion for it, I'll refrain from criticizing them for the moment.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by TRR

The borders were shut to the affected countries as soon as WHO recognized this as a national emergency. Just because the highest echelons of power did not make a fanfare/tweet on it, does not imply that the government did nothing. Please take a minute of your time and read the below links.
...

I'm sure they did put out the notices, though how exactly it was implemented in reality, I have no idea. It is possible that they were not taken seriously and remained on a website as "proof" for us look at.

I'm also suspicious of this whole "notice" thing - just few days back I came across a cap on the price of sanitizers, masks, ... Kinda late isn't it? And I'm sure this is not being followed either. Then there is this other thing where you show an order from some higher authority to the person on the ground (at a road check-post, for example) and he will claim "I haven't received that notification"!

I know that there are dedicated, intelligent, hardworking individuals in the government administration, and the same goes for politicians; unfortunately it is the collective action of the system we see that matters ultimately to every citizen of India and the nation as a whole.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by TRR

I'll stick to my stand that the administration seems to be dealing with it adequately.

You are correct Sir, Authorities and Government did whatever was possible and is doing even better as we progress in this situation