Team-BHP > Shifting gears


View Poll Results: Have you / are you going to install the Aarogya Setu app?
Yes, I already have or I will shortly 293 49.00%
No, I do not plan to 305 51.00%
Voters: 598. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 4th May 2020, 20:27   #46
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,110
Thanked: 1,921 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Voted 'yes' and I have been already using the app.
I know there are concerns about possible surveillance, vulnerability to hacking etc. I don't have issue if government monitors my movement as I have nothing to hide. I am also not worried about my data getting misused as that much data is already everywhere (on social media, with banks, telecom providers, shopping malls....including the mobile device manufacture)
Even if the app helps 10%, it is worth taking the pain and risks IMHO.
Guna is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 4th May 2020, 20:49   #47
Distinguished - BHPian
 
dark.knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Beans Town
Posts: 1,638
Thanked: 5,966 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
I don't have issue if government monitors my movement as I have nothing to hide. I am also not worried about my data getting misused as that much data is already everywhere.
With greatest respect for your opinion, which democracy grants us all, I would like to clarify one thing, or a few things, as I've seen multiple posts reiterating that if one is free of crime or societal violations, that they shouldn't be afraid of being tracked :

1) Opposing being tracked doesn't mean one is guilty of something, or has societal violations to his/her name.

2) Personally, I was against giving data to anyone and everyone, which is why I don't give numbers or email addresses to clothing stores or any place which asks for a contact, once I even left the place when they said they cant generate an invoice without a contact (small value bill that too).

3) Yes people or companies have our data, but some of us will continue to try our best to minimize it, for example I'll never buy a car with a sim card inside it, I never activate GPS, and I have no presence in major data harvesting sites like Twitter, FB, WhatsApp etc. Its a choice.

4) Today's seemingly harmless tippy toeing into data mining by technology companies, might be tomorrows SkyNet/Brainiac/Ultron/I, Robot. I'm not a tinfoil wearing nutter for thinking so, all that we're pointing to, is a possibility, as we all know that every sentient self thinking being achieves a) self-preservatory ideals b) paranoia soon after, and both combined always has lead to absolute domination.

I'll always be like Will Smith's character in I, Robot, a sceptical man who thinks that humankind has free-will, all of them. An elected government are essentially, the very same people, they can't impose their free-will upon others just because they've been boosted into power.

I think the day we bend to the will of the bureaucratic machinery, that day will be the end of humankind so to speak. Again, just a citizen sharing his views.

Last edited by dark.knight : 4th May 2020 at 20:51.
dark.knight is offline   (15) Thanks
Old 4th May 2020, 21:21   #48
Senior - BHPian
 
msdivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,641
Thanked: 1,735 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
I don't have issue if government monitors my movement as I have nothing to hide.
This works as long as you are in good books of the Government, which majorly consists of bureaucrats. In case someone runs foul, fly above the radar of the Govt, have any disagreements then the bureaucrats will have enough data to prove wrong as right.
(History is filled with instances of wrong convictions & witch-hunts).
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
As per updated description in latest version of app they generate an anonymous id using one way hash function. And this is used to generate social graph. So you won't know whome you met but just that the person whome you met was positive or not and if the place you visited was earlier visited by some positive person.
That is good to hear. At least at the end of the day if the app can give a report on the number of contacts I had in the day and if I am the secondary contact of a +ve person, that will be useful so that I can get tested. The app need not reveal the names just the report is enough.
Does such technology exist?
msdivy is online now   (4) Thanks
Old 4th May 2020, 22:29   #49
BHPian
 
Thermodynamics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 649
Thanked: 3,150 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
if one is free of crime or societal violations, that they shouldn't be afraid of being tracked
Let us say we go to a restaurant with family. Now, someone sitting on the next table is staring at you all along. He has no courtesy to turn his head away, he is counting every ounce of food, of yours and and of all your family. To make things worse, lets say the waiter also stands next to you all the while, constantly staring and listening. How would you feel ? Even though you are not doing anything wrong or speaking anything bad or the strangers listening to you are not going to do anything with that information, but still wouldn’t you feel uncomfortable or rather embarrassing ? This is called “privacy”. It is a basic right.

Last edited by Thermodynamics : 4th May 2020 at 22:32.
Thermodynamics is online now   (22) Thanks
Old 4th May 2020, 22:43   #50
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,090
Thanked: 608 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
At least at the end of the day if the app can give a report on the number of contacts I had in the day and if I am the secondary contact of a +ve person, that will be useful so that I can get tested. The app need not reveal the names just the report is enough.
Does such technology exist?
Only Second part is there if you come in contact with positive person ( and that person has app) you will be notified. Even if the person is tested positive after few days you will be notified as he is in your social graph.

First part that is genenrating report on how many person you came in contact with is not there. If you don't meet anyone positive you will feel app is totally useless.

So while the developers thought about using social graph they never considered user engagement and I suspect many people will uninstall the app as they won't see anything happening in the app.
amitk26 is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 5th May 2020, 04:00   #51
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Sydney/KA 14/MV
Posts: 13
Thanked: 34 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by praveen789 View Post
The logic to compare with other apps might be tempting but not apt. Other apps are installed by the user voluntarily. They can uninstall at choice as well. They also offer some tangible use (social media, video calling, etc) whereas the Aarogya Setu app does not offer anything meaningful as of now. Adding things like e-pass in that app makes it look more dubious as you are forcing users to share all your data for permission to move around.

To put it in perspective - would you install any app (from any app developer) that says it will monitor your location every moment and save it (without offering any other feature)? If not, then why would we do it for the government?
As I said I am not worried about apps, I am worried about mobile OS/platform owner companies and mobile OEMs. They don't need any user permission to steal data. If you don't like apps you can uninstall or takeout the permission even after installing them. If government forces you to install any app, you can install and takeout the permission,it's as good as not installing the app. Do you have any ways of protecting your data from OEMs or Google/Apple?
nandrive is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 5th May 2020, 08:55   #52
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: KA03
Posts: 416
Thanked: 1,155 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Nothing much to add, except that this app is the modern equivalent of breaking a coconut or showering petals from a helicopter.
I don't want to install anything from the government and generally avoid any bloatware/c*apware from manufacturers and the like.

So, no, I don't want to install this app, it has no utility for anyone, including the government as far as preventing infection from the virus is concerned and has numerous other serious issues with security and privacy as others have pointed out.
mvadg is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 5th May 2020, 09:33   #53
Distinguished - BHPian
 
dark.knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Beans Town
Posts: 1,638
Thanked: 5,966 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics View Post
This is called “privacy”. It is a basic right.
The problem is that mankind since existence, has only feared the visible, tangible enemy, whether it was tigers & lions, or later on dacoits and petty thieves. Man wants physical evidence to see oncoming danger, whether it is guns, knives, fingernails, teeth etc.. just the primitive wiring of the R-Complex/Limbic System.

If we see someone staring or eavesdropping, which in India is all too prevalent, we won't hesitate to tell them off or ask them why, but if the same is being done by large corporations or government we shirk it away citing :

- It's not just me they're tracking, its the entire population, might as well accept it.

- I've done nothing wrong, only those who do wrong have a reason to fear.

As I've already said, the groundwork for A.I has been done to already enhance the surveillance and data mining of the past decade. In real world, stuff like "remove sunfilm from car because of 1 sexual assault" or "keep your phone in your person always" or "your data is our right" is as 1984 George Orweillian as it can get and can get very interesting when we ask questions like :

1) Should I always carry my phone?

2) What if my phone battery conks off?

3) Is microchipping the way forward?

4) What gives government the rights?
dark.knight is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 5th May 2020, 10:22   #54
Newbie
 
Mr.Bentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 23
Thanked: 53 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Voted Yes.
I have installed the app. I'm someone who always keeps location and bluetooth off when I dont need them. But this app needs them to be ON at all times. So I've 'FORCE STOPPED' the app. I dont go out these days, except for grocery runs. I just open the app and turn ON GPS and Bluetooth when I'm stepping out. Again, after coming back, I'll force stop the app.

Apart from showing how many in your location are affected, the app helps people to back trace people who might have come near the victim. That's pretty nifty IMHO. It doesn't hurt using some space on phone for this. And regarding data sharing, the risk is still there, I just decided to ignore it in this pandemic situation. Afterall, only data the app can track is where I'm going and where I stay, which is very easy to obtain in many other ways.
Mr.Bentley is offline  
Old 5th May 2020, 10:32   #55
Newbie
 
Aqua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 16
Thanked: 12 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

I have voted YES, have no problem with the privacy things.
All these apps, dont they also collect data even when these are set to not collect data. Shall unistall it after COVID.
Aqua is offline  
Old 5th May 2020, 10:34   #56
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: MH43 to KA50
Posts: 423
Thanked: 808 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Voted yes, since the I feel the need of the hour is (contact) tracing.

While the app is not perfect, I would like to know what are the alternatives (than doing nothing)
GeeTee TSI is offline  
Old 5th May 2020, 10:51   #57
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 87
Thanked: 379 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics View Post
Even though you are not doing anything wrong or speaking anything bad or the strangers listening to you are not going to do anything with that information, but still wouldn’t you feel uncomfortable or rather embarrassing ? This is called “privacy”. It is a basic right.
Analogies in the physical world translate poorly to the digital world. Gmail reading your mails or Alexa listening in your conversations for targeted advertising is not the same as letting your neighbor do the same.

Having said that, I am not in favor of Aarogya Setu app not because it violates my privacy (I know privacy in this age is already s**t) but because it might be used for economic discrimination as I have argued in this thread here.
DigitalOne is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 5th May 2020, 10:55   #58
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,090
Thanked: 608 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

I voted Yes because of the following reasons

1. All the information which app collects is already with operator and thus government while I filled KYC of my SIM card. That is basic T&C of using mobile phone in India except may be from initial days from 1999 to 2002 it has always been like that.
I started my carrier by writing CALEA ( communication assistance for law enforcement) feature for a LE first used by US Govt and soon adopted by all sovereign governments so I know for sure after 1999 US Law all switches have this feature to track and provide data. And all sovereign governments can ask operators to provide data. So there is no Utopia of privacy anywhere in the world

If someone is really worried about privacy he/shes should first turn off "Off Facebook Activity" setting in FB app and preferably stop using FB , Zoom , WhatsApp , Google etc.

2. If suppose location tracking and surveillance is a consideration government can do it without this app as well. All of us must have read in newspapers in murder, terrorism and extortion cases how police uses mobile networks to prepare list of suspects and also how identified criminals get tracked using live location data. So the app does not introduce any new vector.

3. The app is giving a useful information if I ever come in contact with someone who may get tested positive after few days.

4. The app uses hash function to hide me from others in social graph and does not report to people around me who I am or even notify them if they come in contact with me . This is good enough privacy for me
amitk26 is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 5th May 2020, 11:49   #59
BHPian
 
padmrajravi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Kozhikode
Posts: 450
Thanked: 1,403 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Almost all posts in favour of the app seems to argue the same point. That apps like FB already collect these data and you should first stop using them if you are worried. That lack of choice is the problem with this app. With all these apps, I can decide not to use it. None is telling me I should have FB installed or use an android or apple device if I want to work.

Freedom of choice is what is lacking here. Government is saying install this app if you want to earn a living.
padmrajravi is offline   (7) Thanks
Old 5th May 2020, 11:57   #60
BHPian
 
procrastinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Pune/Chandigarh
Posts: 220
Thanked: 316 Times
Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Let us face this truth, our apps know lot about us. To an extent that our family or friends will not know.
The risk of exploitation of data has been granted to at least Google or Apple by us.

The fine print of app describes the purpose to track the COVID-19 infected persons, contacts of infected and visualization of such clusters to contain it.

It will help government to track us but rather track the pandemic situation in India.
It will help to slow it down, perhaps, allowing you and me to remain safe.

It asks for access to keep data and Bluetooth on always.
I am not comfortable since it drains battery. We stay at home and it does not make sense either.
For someone at move, turning it on will help.

On data security issue, we have our personal ID cards generated by GOI. God Forbid, their database if hacked will give details before we give through app.
Attached Images
 
procrastinator is offline  
Reply

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks