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View Poll Results: Have you / are you going to install the Aarogya Setu app?
Yes, I already have or I will shortly 293 49.00%
No, I do not plan to 305 51.00%
Voters: 598. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 5th May 2020, 17:18   #91
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Well I have a spare phone lying around. So downloaded it and one can track the number of people who have the app, have taken the assessment test and number of Covid positive cases upto a 10 km radius.

The spare phone has no personal info. Also, I connect it to wi-fi and switch on bluetooth and location for a minute or two, to check the data. That's it. Win-Win for me.
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Old 5th May 2020, 17:35   #92
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TROOPER View Post
Well I have a spare phone lying around. So downloaded it and one can track the number of people who have the app, have taken the assessment test and number of Covid positive cases upto a 10 km radius.

The spare phone has no personal info. Also, I connect it to wi-fi and switch on bluetooth and location for a minute or two, to check the data. That's it. Win-Win for me.
Does it work without a sim?
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Old 5th May 2020, 17:38   #93
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by TROOPER View Post
The spare phone has no personal info. Also, I connect it to wi-fi and switch on bluetooth and location for a minute or two, to check the data. That's it. Win-Win for me.
You think so, eh?
Pretty soon your "secondary" phone will get contaminated with your data and you will be linked to your secondary phone as well. There is something about machines and viruses that seems to escape us - they are around constantly, waiting for us to make one small mistake and latch on to it. Humans on the other hand... (Did you say wifi, LOL)

I've tried similar things with my various devices to avoid Google, but guess what, sooner or later their algorithm will sniff out the fact that it is YOU! Don't be surprised if the same thing happens with this app as well. Good luck!
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Old 5th May 2020, 17:48   #94
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Does it work without a sim?
Yes it has a sim. Details of which I won't disclose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
You think so, eh? ....
You too have a good luck with your paranoia when most of us have already sold our privacy to Google, FB etc. unless you respond by saying that you have never logged on to Google.
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Old 5th May 2020, 17:51   #95
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
Pretty soon your "secondary" phone will get contaminated with your data and you will be linked to your secondary phone as well.

.
.
.

algorithm will sniff out the fact that it is YOU!
This is a very important point.
It's just a matter of connecting from the same WiFi hotspot as you do with your primary phone. Gradually as such interactions build up, the algorithms can determine with increasing confidence levels that yes it is the same individual using a different device.

E.g. If you use Chromecast or an Android OS based TV with casting capabilities, Google probably knows who you share your home with, who your friends and relatives are and how often do they visit you.

But you can CHOOSE a non-smart TV instead if you want to.

Have a look at this concept: Device Fingerprint

and this movie: Enemy of the State

Last edited by theMandarin : 5th May 2020 at 17:54. Reason: Typos
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Old 5th May 2020, 17:56   #96
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

I am shocked at the voting outcome. Why are we even discussing this app as an OPTION? It should be mandatory. This is that exact time where we must put our weight behind the government's efforts regardless of how imperfect they are because the alternative (how many lakhs of contact tracers can we employ?) is unworkable.

For those who are taking it casually - public service announcement, this is a pandemic and not a time for individual opinions & actions, but a time to fall in line. Your privacy is anyways a myth - anyone harboring such hopes may first want to google up about Facebook off-Facebook activity , or Chrome leaking personal data in incognito mode.

Your freedom to use public spaces is no longer an inalienable right. It is a privilege and the price for that is to use this app which automates the imperfect science of contact tracing and keeps us all safer because once the mess seen in liquor shops yesterday translates into covid infections, our hospital systems could get overwhelmed.

what would you rather wish? That you are that smug person who has no clue about her or his exposure or that you learn early about a potential exposure to a covid patient and can seek medical care early. Every day counts in that circumstance.

That makes the difference between life and death! YOUR death. Your parents' death. Esp once hospitals get overwhelmed - anyone recall the hospitals that shut down in Mumbai?

Of course, if you are not venturing out - kudos, no need to install the app.

That said, our civic sense is pathetic as a nation. I see 5.3L people with the app in a 10km radius but only 19k of them filled out the self assessment (at whatever frequency).

PS: Yes, I agree this app is flawed - whether it be the lack of privacy by non-anonymizing expiring IDs but this is better than none. It uploads your data only when you permit.
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Old 5th May 2020, 18:05   #97
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Been using this app shortly after it came out. I am very keen on IT security and privacy and had misgivings initially. But this time I was willing to back off from my ideals for the sake of my health and that of others. Come to think of it, there is heck of a lot of data that the Govt. has about all of us as we need to share all kinds of documents before getting an internet connection, a mobile connection and what have you. Telling the Govt. about my current state of health i.e. symptoms, mobile # and location during this crisis isn't such a big deal IMO. As a matter of practice I do not take the mobile with me when I walk out the door to shop for groceries from the neighbourhood kirana stores.

I intend deleting the app from my phone and the family's phones once it has served its purpose. That day is probably far away given the way this insidious virus is infecting humanity. Right now I have a bigger concern - the immediate, mid and long term socio-economic impact of this horrendous bug.

PS - I must add that BT and Location are switched off when the app is not being used. I normally update my status daily.

Last edited by R2D2 : 5th May 2020 at 18:23. Reason: added PS and typo correction
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Old 5th May 2020, 18:08   #98
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Already have the Aadhaar and not a big fan of the lack of privacy that offers. Definitely not installing this. Privacy is one issue. The other is I am not particularly worried about the corona virus. Be smart and treat it like a bad respiratory infection if anything happens and you will be fine
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Old 5th May 2020, 18:10   #99
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TROOPER View Post
Yes it has a sim. Details of which I won't disclose.



You too have a good luck with your paranoia when most of us have already sold our privacy to Google, FB etc. unless you respond by saying that you have never logged on to Google.
Precisely my point! And don't take it personally, I'm not implying in any way that it is not something I'd have not done out of some superior intellect - just that I've been there, done that. So I'm just cautioning you. Unless you are a part of the group that implements such algorithms and harvests data, it is unlikely that you will know what it is that they use to identify you - I'm pretty sure that you will find out only after the fact (the algorithm has identified you). I'm not sure how many hackers have been able to keep away from Google or the effort it takes. I for one have given up!
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Old 5th May 2020, 18:28   #100
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pganapathy View Post
Already have the Aadhaar and not a big fan of the lack of privacy that offers. Definitely not installing this. Privacy is one issue. The other is I am not particularly worried about the corona virus. Be smart and treat it like a bad respiratory infection if anything happens and you will be fine
I am curious as to the source of your confidence. Maybe you can share the game plan. I'd be the first one to delete the app if there's a proven technique to outsmart the virus and be one of those mildly infected individuals.

I am extremely worried reading about such cases and I would much rather take the self test (not just install the app) every single time I step out. https://twitter.com/bessbell/status/...136242176?s=20
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Old 5th May 2020, 19:04   #101
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMandarin View Post

To start with we can have a look at this comparison:
How Google and Apple's updated Contact Tracing terms compare with Aarogya Setu

Overall the main differentiators are:
  • Having the choice not to install it
  • Not relying on a GPS feed
  • Having a defined lifetime until when this app will be used
  • Transparency and clarity on what data is available to whom

The following resource elaborates more on this:
FAQs covering the Apple/Google approach
Is Aarogya Setu privacy-first?

Saw this this comparison in link you provided
It is total disinformation and person comparing has no clue about software licencing and API ,
If I start dissing it it would be a whole new thread

Few examples :

One App per country all Google and Apple policy says is one app in a country can use this API , The citation of Karnataka app has no bearing as Arogya Setu is not offering API to Karnataka app.

Even suppose if Google API was used by GOI for one App in country it can does not preclude any other independent similar app from state governments without using Google API so Karnataka app can still exist.

Point number 2 :

It criticizes Arogya Setu for function creep due to "medical and administrative purpose" clause however
leaves out the following clause from Google API T&C quoted in the article with out explicit explanation

“While end users of your App may provide personal data as part of their use of the App, you will not share this end-user personal data with Google. You may only share end-user personal data with third parties with user consent, and only as necessary for COVID-19 response efforts.”



So lets say GOI develops a hypothetical app using Google API , all it has to do is to insert an app consent clause for end user ( EULA) where user can click checkbox which reads "I agree to share my data with local DM for necessary covid control and PM Care for donations" and still do whatever Arogya Setu is doing.

This point is total misinterpretation , All google is saying is that you need not share end user personal data with Google but should you need insert a checkbox for user consent and do whatever you define as appropriate action for covid. So as I wrote before this is a legalese to protect Google and Apple from future class action suits and not something which protects users in any way.


If you really want to understand consult some IP firm specializing in software and API licensing.

So in nutshell this comparison is meaningless

Last but not the least the idea of non-removable ankle tags like done for convicts on parole in some countries is probably best idea to enforce home quarantine in country like India

Last edited by amitk26 : 5th May 2020 at 19:08.
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Old 5th May 2020, 19:09   #102
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
PS: Yes, I agree this app is flawed - whether it be the lack of privacy by non-anonymizing expiring IDs but this is better than none. It uploads your data only when you permit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I am curious as to the source of your confidence. Maybe you can share the game plan. I'd be the first one to delete the app if there's a proven technique to outsmart the virus and be one of those mildly infected individuals.

I am extremely worried reading about such cases and I would much rather take the self test (not just install the app) every single time I step out. https://twitter.com/bessbell/status/...136242176?s=20
I may be wrong but it seems you're missing the point.

No one here is on a death wish. I have made enough ICU visits to know that i don't want to end up there and am also up-to-date on the latest findings on the Covid-19 symptoms such as strokes which has the possibility of ending up worse than sudden death.

You're picturing it as having only two options, jumping in an inferno or jumping in a cliff but i think there's a middle ground here.

Try switching off GPS and using any mapping application, it is still accurate enough within a 1 KM radius or less depending on the specific area you are in. Then why do you need that information to be accurate within a margin of 10 meters? Accuracy is needed for risk assessment and from what i have gathered, Bluetooth is a best fit for this requirement. The bottom line being that using a setup that relies on extremely high accuracy is overkill for the stated goal of the tool.
So why use the controversial approach.

You'd see the poll turning one way if these points were addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
So lets say GOI develops a hypothetical app using Google API , all it has to do is to insert an app consent clause for end user ( EULA) where user can click checkbox which reads "I agree to share my data with local DM for necessary covid control and PM Care for donations" and still do whatever Arogya Setu is doing.
I agree that there can be many things in their documentation which have been added just to cover any legal risks but here i am forming an opinion on the end product.

If any country uses the Google/Apple API to build an "intrusive" system, it should also be debated as we are doing now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Last but not the least the idea of non-removable ankle tags like done for convicts on parole in some countries is probably best idea to enforce home quarantine in country like India
I bet it's all fine as long as it happens to the other guy.

Having a sense of civic duty does not mean that we accept a sub-par solution. We should expect more from our elected representatives, even during a pandemic.

Last edited by theMandarin : 5th May 2020 at 19:19.
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Old 5th May 2020, 19:37   #103
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

I voted NO.

But contrary to many others who have voted "NO" - my reason is simpler. I don't want the information this app is bringing to me, so I don't want the app. That's all. I'm getting a bit tired of the information explosions everywhere and I have even stopped reading whatsapp messages from dear ones during the lock down.

If my employer mandates installing it on my private phone - I'll just laugh at them in my head - and install it without hesitating.

With crystal clear records, tax bills & conscience - I'm always fully ready to share all my data with the Indian government (led by any political party). I still hold trust in our democracy & the offices. I have my complaints of course, but I will never say no to sharing data. Especially when I accept all terms of foreign applications without even reading them! If I don't trust the government with my data - it already means the state is compromised & then withholding data itself becomes a joke since a dark state can get all the data by any means they like. So no - data privacy from government isn't the reason I picked NO.

I'm quite intrigued with some fellow BHPians mentioning that such an app is an initial step towards autocratic state etc. I don't see autocracy ever being possible in a modern country with a billion people. A country with infinite means of information sharing. A new one if first gets blocked. Installing autocracy in a country that has already entered information age with quite liberal norms, is near impossible IMO.

Last edited by Reinhard : 5th May 2020 at 19:39.
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Old 5th May 2020, 20:15   #104
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

Turning GPS and Bluetooth on only when using the App kind of defeats the entire purpose of using the app. It is a contact tracing App and without Bluetooth being turned on when you are out and about, that functionality won't be available. Not that it's a silver bullet!
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Old 5th May 2020, 21:17   #105
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Default Re: The Aarogya Setu App : Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by sunnsood View Post
I installed in due to company policy. So did my wife who is a teacher and being asked to do so if they want their salaries credited
How would the organization know if you have the app before crediting salary? Do you have to physically show it or send a screenshot? If so, what prevents an employee from uninstalling it afterwards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I am curious as to the source of your confidence. Maybe you can share the game plan. I'd be the first one to delete the app if there's a proven technique to outsmart the virus and be one of those mildly infected individuals. I am extremely worried reading about such cases and I would much rather take the self test (not just install the app) every single time I step out. https://twitter.com/bessbell/status/...136242176?s=20
How would taking a self test every time you step out keep you safe from the virus? If anything, it would lead to needless panic if millions of users reported sick and others saw them all around them. As you know this virus shares the same symptoms as the flu, common cold and influenza. There is no proven technique to outsmart the virus apart from general social distancing, avoiding crowded places, washing hands before touching your face and wearing a mask when you are near other people. I fail to see why you believe having this app improves your chances in any way? We all know the symptoms by now. If we get a fever or cough or severe chills and body ache, we would get worried and would try to get tested if we feel really sick. What would the app do?
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