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Old 28th May 2020, 18:36   #76
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

Each one may have a different outlook here, some may be careful to the extent of paranoia and some may be lax and many in between. It all comes down to the kind of risk you are willing to take to avoid household chores or to make life comfortable in case one is already way too occupied professionally or unable to do so physically. Also, would depend on the area you reside, range from Mumbai, extreme risk to Assam, very low risk.

Here are the 3 scenarios,

Scenario 1 - Your maid has no symptoms or any infection nor she ever comes in contact with an infected person/ surface.

Scenario 2 - Your maid is not infected but has come in contact with an infected surface, so she can transmit the virus via touching other surfaces.

Scenario 3 - She is infected but asymptomatic.
--------------------------------------------------------
In scenario 1 - Life is good, you may follow all precautions but it doesn't make a difference anyway.

In scenario 2- You may be safe for a day or two but since she has come in contact with the virus, it is highly likely that she will soon be infected or if not, there is still a high chance that she is close to an infection source and will get infected in future, taking things to scenario 3. Also, consider the fact that you have no control on where she goes after her work and who she meets. (Infection might be in her area/ community/ other place of work)

Scenario 3 - If she is infected, then no matter what precautions you take with mask/ gloves/ handwash/ UV light and all the works, It WILL spread to you. Unless your entire family wears PPE kit 24x7. Even doctors have been infected who have been close to COVID positive patients. If a COVID positive patient is entering your house and spending a minimum of 30 mins daily, you can not escape the virus.


Also, if a patient is positive and capable of spreading the virus for a duration of 10 days, he/ she may have a fever only for 2,3 or 4 days. So that thermal scanner on the society entrance is not of much help.


So only in scenario 2 you are slightly protected with the precautions, given in case of infection the symptoms develop soon and the maid stops visiting.

So for us since we have time and are capable of doing the household chores and cooking, our house will be in "no maids" mode until situation in my city improves.

Last edited by ishan12 : 28th May 2020 at 18:39.
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Old 8th June 2020, 00:34   #77
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
https://ridesharesafetypartition.com/ is what I am thinking when I bring back my driver. Thank God I have a Yaris which has proper rear AC vents.
Yaris rear AC mounted on the roof is only a blower that pulls cold air from front area and throws it back. If you use it, then no point is the partition too! You will be breathing the same air as the front part of the car.
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Old 8th June 2020, 00:50   #78
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

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Originally Posted by ishan12 View Post
Scenario 3 - She is infected but asymptomatic.
--------------------------------------------------------

Scenario 3 - If she is infected, then no matter what precautions you take with mask/ gloves/ handwash/ UV light and all the works, It WILL spread to you. Unless your entire family wears PPE kit 24x7. Even doctors have been infected who have been close to COVID positive patients. If a COVID positive patient is entering your house and spending a minimum of 30 mins daily, you can not escape the virus.
Ishan,

I'm afraid your strong belief doesn't stand up to the published research. I could entirely be wrong but I would be forever grateful if you could share published research / actual instances of household spread despite the precautions mentioned above. These are scientifically designed precautions - not foolproof but not foolish either.
  1. The initial post mentioned the meta study with 1248 cases. Only ONE event with 2 infections happened in an outdoor closed quarters scenario. None with masks and social distancing and ventilation.
  2. Even indoors, it depends on the airflow, as indicated in this CDC investigation of a presymptomatic case (your case 3). That's what we religiously ensure at every moment.
The maid is in the house for 2 hours. We are not working next to her for 2 hours. That is an important difference, chief. A doctor who is managing an emergency case or is only around them is a very different context. Their viral load cannot be compared to mine! It is ALL about minimizing the viral transmission and hence any load faced by us.

What I appreciate is that you disagreed but thought through your answer - thanks for the depth! (why doesnt TBHP have a thanks emoji in 2020!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_meher View Post
Yaris rear AC mounted on the roof is only a blower that pulls cold air from front area and throws it back. If you use it, then no point is the partition too! You will be breathing the same air as the front part of the car.
Ani,

Thanks man - Logical but already accounted for
  1. I have updated my plans to include an ionizer in front of the driver. I will try fitting a second unit near where the car AC air intake is.
  2. The partition will be put or modified such that it doesnt mix air - that is design consideration #1
  3. In the worst case, i will ensure the rear seat passenger to open the rear windows - our rides will be under half an hour so it will not be an issue with masks.
Thank you for investing time to think sharply about my context. What other suggestions would you have?
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Old 8th June 2020, 00:58   #79
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon?wprov=sfti1

Asypmtomatic carrier who spread Typhoid all over the place. Wouldn’t COVID be much easier to spread unknowingly?
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Old 8th June 2020, 01:07   #80
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon?wprov=sfti1

Asypmtomatic carrier who spread Typhoid all over the place. Wouldn’t COVID be much easier to spread unknowingly?
Sir,

Good evening. Life is fearful as is - Mary Mallon spread typhoid before it was understood. Our understanding of COVID is FAR better so the context is not the same.

We know how covid spreads , unknowingly as you beautifully put - but we equally know how to break the chain. Please see my reply above - this process is designed for those who are willing to look beyond the fear and are taking a scientific risk.

Forget maids - eventually we will all need to go back out into the world. We need such scientific approach to engage with the world whether we like it or not. That's what this humble attempt is - you can happily wait for guinea pigs like me to report back. So far its been three weeks - *touchwood*
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Old 8th June 2020, 07:18   #81
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

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Sir,

Good evening. Life is fearful as is - Mary Mallon spread typhoid before it was understood. Our understanding of COVID is FAR better so the context is not the same.

report back. So far its been three weeks - *touchwood*
I have been out and about every day since early March when we decided to work from home. Every day I go early for a good walk with the dog. I then cycle a good bit. In fact I ve just come back from 6 kms of cycling. I always wear a mask, carry my own water bottle and one small hand sanitiser. I don't go anywhere near any other human being at all. Plenty of distance being maintained. A friend and I went and played Golf also mid week. No problem there. Golf anyway is a game where you don't come into close contact with anyone. And we wheel our own trolleys as well.

At this moment the house is also completely self contained excepting for deliveries. And we all follow rigorous hand washing and sanitisation even of the parcels that come. But my maid, she hasn't returned from her village. She went off before lock down. There are other maids, some of whom have offered to work. But we have kept away for the moment. Luckily we are able to manage our house quite well so far.

The one thing I want to do is to go and visit my parents who live in Chennai. But at this moment, leaving Karnataka does not seem like a good idea at all. I think we are going to be living like this for some more time - I would hazard a guess that it will be till atleast end of August 2020.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 8th June 2020 at 11:51. Reason: Clubbing sentences into paras for better readability.
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Old 8th June 2020, 08:27   #82
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

Very interesting to see how different the situation is in cities other than Bombay.

Our society still does not allow temporary help - forget maids who need to take lifts to come to homes, even drivers and car cleaners are not allowed. I have not visited anyone else’s home in 3 months - and don’t think I would do that for another month. I have not stepped into my office since March 18 either.

But given how cases are growing in Bombay, I don’t see the current situation changing for at least another month.

On the SOPs themselves, masks make sense - both residents and the staff / other visitors should wear them. Keeping windows open to ensure ventilation is important. But gloves are a waste - getting the staff to was hands regularly makes a lot more sense.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:30   #83
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

We have our maids coming in continuously throughout the whole lockdown as they live hardly 100 metres away and ours is an independent bungalow so no paranoid folks at the RWAs to poke in.

So thankful that she turned up and didn't use the opportunity to take time off on the grounds that other employers have given them paid time off from work and we have rewarded her suitably.

Also helps that we have an outdoor space where we keep the utensils to be cleaned and she can carry out her work without entering the house and also not interacting with us , so her safety is also taken care of.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:39   #84
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

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Ishan,
I'm afraid your strong belief doesn't stand up to the published research. I could entirely be wrong but I would be forever grateful if you could share published research / actual instances of household spread despite the precautions mentioned above. These are scientifically designed precautions - not foolproof but not foolish either.
As much as we can put our trust in published scientific researches, but the fact is, such researches are not the absolute truth like the Newton's laws. They are prone to biases, not going into details of how many types of biases would be relevant to COVID spread research, a simple google search into "false research reports" will fetch a barrage of false report findings and their reasons spreading from political, financial to just scientific errors. So am I willing to risk the health of my family including elderly parents based on some published research? Absolutely no!. I am quite sure if something goes wrong, those research publishers will not come to my aid, nor will any hospital be willing to give me a bed which are now scarce with me showing them the research paper.
Just 2 months ago, a lot of doctors and researchers said that only people coming in close contact with infected people need to wear a mask. Now it is common knowledge that everyone needs to wear one. That's the problem or the good thing with such science and research, it keeps evolving.

In case of maids visiting, I would prefer to go with common sense rather than research. In my city Pune and also in Mumbai many COVID hotspots are slums.
And most maids live in slums, also they visit many other houses too, most of the people will now be going out regularly from those homes coming in contact with several others. The slum itself is a place where social distancing is not a possibility. Many from there too would be regularly going out and about to their work. Now imaging the sheer number of potential people she would come in contact with. Just not worth the risk for me, even if she takes a holy dip in a tub of sanitizer before entering. . Also, we are managing just fine, since both myself and wife are working from home. Of course we are helping her in any way we can in terms of money and kind.
The government has relaxed the lockdown, but the COVID cases are on a steep rise.

Now coming to cases where allowing house maids brought COVID to a housing complex.
This is just from 3 days ago, in a housing complex in Mulund, Mumbai (not mentioning the name here, would be happy to share on DM) 20 people from 3 families including 6 watch men tested positive for COVID when a visiting asymptomatic maid found to be infected, who lived in a nearby slum. This housing complex is a posh one, and they had all the SOPs in place with all the bells and whistles of precaution.

Another such case happened in my own city in Chinchwad area (happy to share the name of complex in DM), a cook infected 2 families in a locality which was till now corona free. She likely caught the infection at railway station when trying to go to her home town, but the train was cancelled. (Not verified/ certain though).

I can see how this can be a calculated risk for a city like Bangalore where cases are now controlled and are at a minimum. But for cities like Mumbai, Pune, Delhi, in my opinion it is just not worth the risk if you can manage without maids. I know we need to get used to the new normal and try to get back to our normal lives, but given the increasing numbers, research or no research, this is one risk I would rather not take.

Last edited by ishan12 : 8th June 2020 at 11:42.
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Old 26th October 2020, 15:39   #85
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

So... just wondering. How many of you are still following this SOP/workflow these days?

I read an excellent article on Wired Magazine from last week, dealing with this subject.

Edit: Just noticed it is also posted in the other thread.

Last edited by Samurai : 26th October 2020 at 16:03.
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Old 17th April 2021, 15:39   #86
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

NY Times article says: Has the Era of Overzealous Cleaning Finally Come to an End?

Quote:
This week, the C.D.C. acknowledged what scientists have been saying for months: The risk of catching the coronavirus from surfaces is low....

C.D.C. updated its surface cleaning guidelines and noted that the risk of contracting the virus from touching a contaminated surface was less than 1 in 10,000.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/h...-surfaces.html
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Old 26th April 2021, 21:38   #87
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Re: Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
So... just wondering. How many of you are still following this SOP/workflow these days?

I read an excellent article on Wired Magazine from last week, dealing with this subject.

Edit: Just noticed it is also posted in the other thread.
Never stopped. It is dharma for me. And one never gives up one's dharma for even a single day!
I just ask the maids to sanitize their hands upon entry - nothing else. Our own behavior has changed - we do not touch our noses without sanitizing the fingers

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Prologue: This thread isn't for value judgments - its a practical approach for those who wish to get work done from their day maids in the most safe manner. This isn't a debate thread.

PS: This SOP is humane and considers that either the resident or maid could be infected and basically minimizes any un-sanitized contact.
Just re-upping this again:

Ventilate your house while any stranger is in the house, even if masked!


Almost all global governmental agencies are UNANIMOUSLY ADVOCATING Ventilation wherever possible

Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid-who-ventilation.jpg
Covid-proof workflow for housework by a day maid-japan-3cs.jpg

Sources:
WHO✔ https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1384557198869770240?s=20 (more than a dozen tweets by them on THIS theme)
US CDC✔ Keep doors windows exhaust fans open when an outsider comes home: https://twitter.com/CDCgov/status/1349388007363796994
DHS UK ✔ https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status...13479303282692 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...ad-of-covid-19
AIIMS director? ✔ Guleria ji saying it is airborne
Japan? ✔ Japan PMO asked for ventilation right away an year back: https://twitter.com/JPN_PMO/status/1255832366779518976 (poster attached)
Let's look at respected scientific journals? The Lancet ✔ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...869-2/fulltext
On surface transmission being less important: https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/12...269051398?s=20
On the outdoors being safe https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...utside-safety/
A Harvard Professor on Safe Building endorsing the need for Ventilation and air changes: https://twitter.com/j_g_allen/status...380882438?s=20

Last edited by phamilyman : 26th April 2021 at 21:44.
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