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Old 24th June 2020, 17:41   #16
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
This whole concept of "alcoholics anonymous" type of "support groups" and medication is borrowed from the west. It is the family and relationships, stupid!

Find me every depressed person and I will show you a failed family/relationship. It's not even career like many people think - the career stuff is often the means through which we want to earn love and admiration of our loved ones. If you are a parent, sibling or child of someone going through depression, let go of your ego/baggage and reach out to that person and let him/her experience unconditional love.

I am not against medication but it's big business and you know what that means. Anything that doesn't make money doesn't get promoted these days. Truth is always buried under several layers of profit-driven misinformation.
I am sorry but you have got it completely wrong. It is even more disappointing to see so many people have 'thanked' you for this post. Perfect testimonial to the fact that this is such an under/mis-understood ailment. This post is also a huge let down to the many aware and responsible families of depression patients who are working hard and being patient with the sufferer.

In simple terms, depression NEED NOT have a trigger at all. It need not be because of a failed family or relationship as you deem it. It can be as random as any other disease like cancer. Yes, lifestyle, family history of mental illnesses can contribute in many cases, but they are not the norm.

Sadness due to a perceived failure in a career or in a romantic relationship is NOT termed as depression, although the term is very casually and colloquially used.

Depression itself can be of many types. It can be constant, sporadic, intermittent, or even cyclical with/without triggers.

Lastly, please look at depression like any other ailment. Perhaps like a broken arm for example, which will need to be treated by an Ortho. Please encourage the sufferer to get professional, medical help.

I am just quoting a popular radio jockey Danish Sait for the benefit of the audience here. I think he's summarized it well.

The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room-1.jpg

The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room-2.jpg

The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room-3.jpg


Lastly, please read about Gatekeeper training that all of us can take.


EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I am very sorry, but in all honesty you are completely of the mark. It is remarkable the number of likes your post already has. I think it shows a considerable, if not complete misunderstanding of what depression really is.
I noticed your post now. Thank you.

Last edited by Added_flavor : 24th June 2020 at 17:54.
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Old 24th June 2020, 18:19   #17
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

I must admit to having zero knowledge on depression and related issues. The closest approach I've had was when I received a call while at office from a friend to see if I could check on a friend of his who was in depression and has not been reporting to office or to his parents' calls/messages.

Hopefully I can learn better from this thread.

A quick question as well - Has anyone tried or possibly given a thought to hypnotherapy as a potential tool to address depression? I have only superficial knowledge on the subject which is largely from reading Brian Weiss.

Would be nice to know if anyone has tried it and if it's worked for them.

PS - Anyone wanting to get into debates on the science and relevance of hypnosis - possibly another thread.

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Old 24th June 2020, 18:29   #18
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by Miyata View Post

A quick question as well - Has anyone tried or possibly given a thought to hypnotherapy as a potential tool to address depression? I have only superficial knowledge on the subject which is largely from reading Brian Weiss.
I've looked into that subject in great depth. Something which works the best for depression is cognitive behavioral therapy.

This is based on breaking your pre-existing mental patterns and replacing them with new one's. Something very close to what hypnotherapy does but this takes it to a whole another level. Feeling Great by David D Burns is a brilliant book that covers this in detail.

Last edited by rahul_jo : 24th June 2020 at 18:32.
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Old 24th June 2020, 20:07   #19
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

I have only one point to add.
ASK. You cannot and will not be able to diagnose depression otherwise and may not be able to give timely help.
The number of people around you, who are able to conceal their depression and behave normally externally atleast initially will surprise you. And not all of us are trained specialists to detect minimal signs.

So if a friend or colleague or relative looks sad, go ahead and ask. They are probably looking for an option to speak with someone.

Last edited by Sree : 24th June 2020 at 20:08.
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Old 24th June 2020, 20:48   #20
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
The internet is full of people from two schools of thought.
There are many people out there proclaiming many different thoughts. Depression, autism ADHD by and large are nothing new. They have been around for centuries, it is only the last couple of decades that we are beginning to understand and recognise these as actual diseases, that you can diagnose and sometimes treat to a certain extend.

I must say you have a very warped view of the medical world and how psychiatrists. In my dealing with them on my family and my own case I have found them extremely interested in any aspect and environment. I have yet to meet the first physician that believes you can cure depression with medicine.

The physicians I know and had to deal with would never prescribe medicines only as a last measure to help suppress/lessen some of the symptoms. The problem being that often with severe clinical depression the patient simply can not be treated and does not respond to anything no matter what.

But it is clear you hold a very different view on what constitutes depression. You also have a very firm opinion on medical science it seems. Neither of which I believe to be correct or representative in general (there are of course always exceptions.)

Maybe we should discuss something less controversial, e.g. the fake moon landings or why scientist want us to believe the earth is round, instead of flat?

Jeroen
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Old 24th June 2020, 21:22   #21
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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Maybe we should discuss something less controversial, e.g. the fake moon landings or why scientist want us to believe the earth is round, instead of flat?
When I use the word "holistic", I am prepared to be called a weirdo on the internet.

You are conveniently cut-pasting sections of my post. I have maintained that the role of medicine is important and it saves lives in severely mental ill patients. Environment and social factors are very important and they are routinely ignored by health care professionals as it is not a profitable way of delivering care.

If you think health care system is above criticism, more power to you. It is an open secret that doctors work with a target quota of surgeries and lab tests in the hospitals here in India - commissions are distributed through out the referral chain. It is just business at the end of the day and hopefully your interest and business interest are aligned - otherwise tough luck!

To ridicule my comment on role of family in mental well-being by comparing it with flat-earth theory is a Freudian slip.
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Old 24th June 2020, 23:28   #22
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
If you think health care system is above criticism, more power to you. It is an open secret that doctors work with a target quota of surgeries and lab tests in the hospitals here in India - commissions are distributed through out the referral chain. It is just business at the end of the day and hopefully your interest and business interest are aligned - otherwise tough luck!
No I don’t think the health care system is above criticism at all. If you have followed some of my post, you will notice that there is very little, if anything I hold above criticism. Name your topic and I will criticise it for you! But it doesn’t mean the health care system has many good sides as well.

I don’t live in India currently, I live and have lived all over the world and have encountered and experienced quite a few health care system. Anything from the USA to India and from Greenland to several African states.

I can report that both my wife and I ended up in Delhi hospitals and in the care of Indian doctors and specialists multiple times during our Indian years.

Being expats we were probably fortunate in getting medical attention that is not available to most Indians. Although in all cases we were the only non-Indians on the ward!. Lots of Indians were being seen by the same Indian doctors and specialist as us.

I am sure the hospital, doctors etc were all paid handsomely by our insurance and or company. My wife has a medical background and she always maintains that the medical care we received in Delhi was impeccable and on par with anything in the West/Europe/USA. Again, I am very conscious of the fact that we were most likely very fortunate being expats.

But to dismiss medicine and science all together because of (alleged or real) commission systems is a bridge too far. I am sure it is a factor, but it does not stop you from getting good, if not excellent care.

I think you are vastly underrating the medical and scientific approach to depression and vastly overrating your own and or family/friends influence in dealing with depression.

Depression, and I am talking real depression here, needs medical interference. If it can be dealt with through family and friends, good for you, but I doubt doctors would call those cases true depression cases.

But then again. I am opposed to home schooling and there are several (tens of) millions Americans that think they do a much better job than qualified teachers and institutions. We lived for years in the USA mid West. Subsequently, we have quite a few friends who believe their (parental) home schooling is vastly superior to anything the State has to offer or money can buy. They too, often take a very dim few of seeking professional medical help. Kids actually die, because their parents do not believe in seeking medical help from professionals.

It is a different mind set / different world to mine.

No use to continue this discussion.

i think my view on what constitutes depression and yours are miles apart. Hence, treatment is going to be very different too. And I don’t share your scepticism about the medical world at all.

I certainly don’t share your belief in the super healing powers of family and friends.

I would be the first to admit they can help. In most cases of dealing with depression, family and friends are pulled into the overall treatment program by the doctors in my experience and also what I read. You believe those doctors will just prescribe medicine. My experience is different on several continents.

Family/friend support on its own, in cases of real depression, is simply not going to be sufficient. Thinking/declaring it is, means (my opinion) you have no clue as to what depression really is, how it affects individuals and how complex a typical treatment is likely to be.

Jeroen
(getting very depressed dealing with some comments on the internet on occasion!)

Last edited by Jeroen : 24th June 2020 at 23:34.
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Old 24th June 2020, 23:59   #23
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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It might sound a little weird but most of it can always be linked to childhood trauma or abuse (usually the sexual kind).
Is this backed by research figures? Curious because I dont buy it - I dont say it cant be one of the causes, I dont agree to the "most" part.

WHO (people may call this a questionable source) at this point says 264 M +people are affected by depression. it also states (and I copy this from https://www.who.int) : Depression results from a complex interaction of social, psychological and biological factors. People who have gone through adverse life events (unemployment, bereavement, psychological trauma) are more likely to develop depression.

If put it in a different perspective and someone said the percentage of people who went through "childhood trauma or abuse (usually the sexual kind)" have a higher chance of being depressed than the rest, I would possibly agree based on a gut feeling - no backed stats though.
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Old 25th June 2020, 00:51   #24
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

Excellent thread. That was my first thought when this thread was opened. But now it's a messy set of arguments and counter arguments, seemingly from folks who neither have experienced depression nor are from the medical fraternity.

A request to those who aren't sharing their own personal stories or aren't from the medical fraternity, suggest you not to share advice / views on this thread, even with all the good intent, it doesn't help.

-----------
A few pointers

- there are different 'types' and stages of depression; while the overall aspects might remain same, the effect on the individual is very different. This is basis what I understood talking and reading to/on folks who have been through this illness. And understood how different their experiences were with mine.

- a lot of us don't really realize we are in depression for a good duration; most of the time is spent in figuring out 'faults' in ourselves as the cause. Or blaming it on others

- family and friends do matter the most (they did for me). But then isolation at times also helps (that worked for me too). Coz your friends and family are at a complete loss how to help, and at times make it worse. So even if you helped your best friend through depression, you probably know less than 10% of his true mental situation.

- Most helpful is gaining a hobby, an area to focus on (fitness, travel, work, whatever that works).


My experience in a nutshell

- For me it probably started due to a failing long term relationship. With the constraints of being in separate cities / continents, things just didn't get better

- didn't realize I had depression but figured something was wrong so moved back to India

- tried salvaging the relationship, but we had to call it off - that broke me badly.

- took a ~year off, isolated myself from all that wasn't helping, keeping connect with a close bunch of friends and family. Sold my car and most belongings that were associated with that relationship.

- Went backpacking alone for a month and half overseas. Had an awesome time living with strangers in hostels.

- now back to base, a fresh start. Much much better situation.

-----------------

I didn't take medical help, that I still wonder if it was a mistake, but I don't rue it.

My running habits saved me through these last three years, did about 23 half marathons and 1000s of kms across the world.

My parents had zero knowledge on what to do, but thankfully there were there to support me through the process. And still are.

My friends were the best. Helped when needed, never gave me advice what to do. These were folks who were friends with my EX too. But never caused any awkward situations ever, then and now.

Is my process the ideal process? No. But it worked for me. But I dare not give advice to someone with depression to do what I did.

Only a therapist could. And even they only advise and suggest medicine as additional. So folks with advice, please TAKE A CHILL PILL, seriously please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

No use to continue this discussion.
That would be a very good decision. Not worth it.

Last edited by ninjatalli : 25th June 2020 at 00:56.
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Old 25th June 2020, 01:06   #25
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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Is this backed by research figures? Curious because I dont buy it - I dont say it cant be one of the causes, I dont agree to the "most" part.
I can't quote specific figures or a research article. Sure. Depression could be a result of several other factors. Soldiers who return from war, sometimes end up with PTSD and turn severely suicidal.

To answer the question about research, you technically can't have enough stats or data on it. However, if you research hard enough, you'll find quite a few research papers which link childhood trauma/abuse to depression later in life. Here - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4677006/

But here is the problem - Most of us don't even understand the true meaning of child abuse and most will never report it.

A lot of abuse is happening in a majority of Indian households. No one talks about it. No one ever reports it. Let's say your immediate family was a part of it. Uncle, dad, mom, aunt, cousin, sister etc. Would one be willing to openly talk about it or report it? Would one openly seek professional guidance to get over the after effects?

Some have gone through years worth of abuse without actually knowing that it was abuse. Let alone being able to point out exactly what was being done to them.

So when I spoke about the "MOST" part. I am coming from experience of being a part of many depression support groups, talking to a multitude of psychologists/psychiatrists and also having been a copywriter for online companies that directly cater to people dealing with extreme situations.

In a majority of cases (which is why i used the word most), it was always linked to some form of abuse during one's childhood. I can't mention the details here as this is a very sensitive subject and could trigger someone.

Often times, the person wasn't even able to point out exactly how or when they were abused.

Last edited by rahul_jo : 25th June 2020 at 01:18.
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Old 25th June 2020, 01:28   #26
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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I can't quote specific figures or a research article. Sure. Depression could be a result of several other factors. Soldiers who return from war, sometimes end up with PTSD and turn severely suicidal.

To answer the question about research, you technically can't have enough stats or data on it. Most of us don't even understand the true meaning of child abuse and most will never report it.

A lot of abuse is happening in a majority of Indian households. No one talks about it. No one ever reports it. Let's say your immediate family was a part of it. Uncle, dad, mom, aunt, cousin, sister etc. Would one be willing to openly talk about it or report it? Would one openly seek professional guidance to get over the after effects?

Some have gone through years worth of abuse without actually knowing that it was abuse. Let alone being able to point out exactly what was being done to them.

So when I spoke about the "MOST" part. I am coming from experience of being a part of many depression support groups, talking to a multitude of psychologists/psychiatrists and also having been a copywriter for online companies that directly cater to people dealing with extreme situations.

In a majority of cases (which is why i used the word most), it was always linked to some form of abuse during one's childhood. I can't mention the details here as this is a very sensitive subject and could trigger someone.

Often times, the person wasn't even able to point out exactly how or when they were abused.
Dont disagree with anything you say. Based on the sample you talk about, this was the inference.

My "i dont buy it" comes from pretty much my sample. Most of the people I met who were depressed faced none of what you mentioned and hence my urge to reply that we shouldn't put them out there as stats without the disclaimer. I wont be surprised if the WHO reported numbers are shadowed by Tier 1 cities also where abuse may be less prevalent (again, have not checked the stats, gut feel).
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Old 25th June 2020, 01:44   #27
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by akshaymahajan View Post
My "i dont buy it" comes from pretty much my sample. Most of the people I met who were depressed faced none of what you mentioned and hence my urge to reply that we shouldn't put them out there as stats without the disclaimer. I wont be surprised if the WHO reported numbers are shadowed by Tier 1 cities also where abuse may be less prevalent (again, have not checked the stats, gut feel).
Well, let's look at it this way. This is a thread about depression. A thread where we can help each other as a community and get through things together.

Not an argument where we should constantly correct each other and parse words. I could just casually ask - Did the people you met completely open up to you? Are you sure they were telling you the truth and not hiding anything?

That question won't serve the real purpose behind this very subject. This isn't a test of who is more accurate with stats and numbers.

More than looking for the exact meaning behind my words, please understand the intent. My intention is to be helpful in any way I can.

Last edited by rahul_jo : 25th June 2020 at 01:46.
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Old 25th June 2020, 03:21   #28
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

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Well, let's look at it this way. This is a thread about depression. A thread where we can help each other as a community and get through things together.

Not an argument where we should constantly correct each other and parse words. I could just casually ask - Did the people you met completely open up to you? Are you sure they were telling you the truth and not hiding anything?

That question won't serve the real purpose behind this very subject. This isn't a test of who is more accurate with stats and numbers.

More than looking for the exact meaning behind my words, please understand the intent. My intention is to be helpful in any way I can.
Disclaimer: I dont know anything about depression. The reason I replied to it may just have been because I was instigated for no rightful reason.

I just did not want anyone to read the statement you made in the following manner: "I read that most of the depression cases involve childhood trauma or abuse (usually the sexual kind). I had none, so maybe I am just sad/stressed/too much on social media and this will go away"

I may be way off and overthinking it! But I am out of this discussion now.
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Old 25th June 2020, 09:04   #29
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

Medical 'Depression' versus the word 'depression'

My wife and I are the caretakers for my brother in law who suffers from certain mental illnesses including schizophrenia and depression. We've been thus for over two decades and have a front seat view of mental illness including depression. Allow me to share my learnings and perspectives.

The term “depression” is used generically in everyday life to mean feeling down. It is also a clinical term for a temporary or permanent mental illness characterized at a biological level by chemical imbalances measured in micro grammes or less. Chemical imbalances as real and as measurable as infection in your blood if you were suffering from say malaria.

This clinical or medical term “Depression” as opposed to the generic word “depression” is more than simply feeling unhappy or fed up for a few days or feeling low over a missed promotion.

Some people think depression is trivial and not a genuine health condition. They're wrong – it is a real illness with real symptoms and very real measurable changes in your body which can be picked up in your pathology samples. Medical Depression {I’ll refer to it in uppercase to distinguish it from the generic word depression} is not a sign of weakness or something you can "snap out of" by "pulling yourself together".The good news is that with the right medical treatment and support, most people with Depression can make a full recovery or in more complicated cases like my relative a partial recovery that enables you to manage.

I think members here are mixing up the generic word with the clinical term.

My literally two plus decades of direct and daily experience with my relative have taught me that the patient suffering from Depression or other mental illness is as much a slave to the biological processes gone awry within him as you and I are if we catch an infection or develop diabetes or suffer something as common as a headache. In my relative’s case if by mistake he misses his pills for even one day or suffers some mental trauma {like losing his mother} the very dramatic change is apparent. Miss them for three days and he is out of control. These are not anti-depressants that American celebrities are said to pop. These are serious pharma medicines that make up for the chemical imbalances in his mind which for us the body does naturally but for him it does not produce enough of. Some people’s body doesn’t produce enough insulin and others’ case it doesn’t produce the bio-chemicals needed in very fine quantities each day to stay mentally healthy.

In the case of my relative we are facing a permanent issue. For many others it can be temporary that needs treatment and can be resolved after that. Just like you can have diabetes that in most cases needs a permanent life long treatment or you can be afflicted with viral fever that needs a week long treatment. In our case my relative is not a raving lunatic. His medicines help him get to the stage of a well behaved 12-year old wanting to help mother. The mother now in his case is my wife. Even when he, in the rare instance {about once or twice a year}, goes off the charts he recognizes that my wife is not some one he can burn bridges with! - the survival instinct.

We should not look upon people with Depression as weak or inferior as much as we would not look upon a person with diabetes or high blood pressure as weak or inferior.

Let this thread be about serious discussion and experience sharing about medical Depression rather than get caught up in depression versus Depression. Thank you for reading.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 25th June 2020 at 09:06.
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Old 25th June 2020, 10:24   #30
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Re: The Depression Thread: Let's openly talk about this elephant in the room

A Team-BHP Fan would like to share this anonymously:

Quote:
Thanks once again for this forum and the high quality threads and topics.

I am from Bangalore and would like to share a quick story about what depression can do to you and how to recover from it.

I quit my college in 2005 (B.A drop out) and was rejected by every known acquaintance for doing so. All my cousins became engineers when I was still working as an office boy. Sometime I used to stand on railway tracks for hours together thinking all negative stuff, attempted suicide a few times (standing in front of a locomotive that's hurling towards me at scary speeds) and never got the courage to complete the task.

One day I was at the corporation circle and distributing flyers for some event. I just wished, if I too could be successful like all these guys on bikes and cars. Meaning of being successful back then was to be rich and wealthy.

Fast-forward 13 years now, I attempted to complete my graduation twice and gave up midway as I am not into books really. Fell in love with an awesome person, now married to her and blessed with a son few months back.

My friends circle has always remained small and close. One thing I know for sure is "You always have a choice to be better, to think better".

My wife once told me, graduation is not everything. Not all graduates are smart and not all 12th pass are dumb. It's all in the mind, how we perceive ourselves. Thanks to her and some of my close friends. I decided to replace graduation with other stuff of my own interest.

Learnt car repainting from scratch

Painted 3 cars - both flopped and still learnt from them. Bought and sold 5 cars till now. Have owned 11 bikes till now. Ridden 1.60 Lakh km on bikes.

Learnt stick welding from Youtube and have done basic stuff at home and now slowly moving towards MIG or TIG by end of year. I work for a BPO, while everyone feels pity at my night shift. I enjoy the empty roads to ride at night.

At times I manage to earn half a lakh in one month (which may not be big, but for someone who started with flyers, it is). I am content with what I have.

To summarise what I learnt:

1. Share your problems with only people who care about it.
2.You cannot win all fights, some are lost and it's fine to lose in life.
3. An engineer with 2 kids and his own house is not the definition of being successful.
4. Never compare your earnings with others and feel bad or low. How much you earn alone is not your identity.
5. Stop valuing money more than time & people. No amount of money can buy you the past.
6.We always know how much money we have, but never know how much time we are left with. So enjoy every moment and be thankful to God that he gave you this happiness.
7. Nothing is permanent, so don't fret about anything.
8. The biggest competition is with self, know yourself, think about your past mistakes and understand why you did that.
9. It's never about how much you earn, it's always about how you spend.
10.There are people who sell pani puri and sleep peacefully, while there are guys with crores but have BP, diabetes, health insurance, Benz and still cant sleep.

I can't stop telling this to people,there is no such thing as "Settled life". Life is a journey, feel it, live it and enjoy it.

You are not alone.

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