[navin]

Originally Posted by Miyata

All the grand (educational) infrastructure would be just that if not for teachers that are - approachable; are more or less masters of their trade; will entertain a dialogue where opposing them is not seen as a threat; will sit down with you patiently to go through any help one may require even well beyond official hours.

As good Indian colleges begin to spend more on their physics infrastructure, they will also seek out better teachers (by paying them better). I have met a few of my son's teachers in Mumbai and they were all very good.

These better Indian colleges are still about 10 years behind the middle level colleges in the US in either respect. They may need a generation or more to achieve the status of a Harvard or Stanford.

It is good to note that education in India is improving, although it also getting more and more expensive and out of the reach of much of the middle class.

Till it "gets there", Indians (and Koreans and Chinese) will continue to seek colleges in the US and UK. I believe almost 200,000 Chinese and about 100,000 Indians apply for (and get) Foreign Student Visas (F1) for the US alone.

[asitkde]

After several pages, the subject has been treated quite extensively. After my 2 posts on page 2 of this thread, let me mention just a couple of more points from my own experience.

I happen to have broad experience in this matter for more than 3 decades. I am an academician by profession, a theoretical physicist who spent nearly 14 years abroad for my Masters, PhD and a couple of post-doctoral research stints. Then I came back with a faculty position in a national research Institute that offers PhD degree to students. I have taught a large number of students, and a number of them went abroad afterwards. All my own PhD students have gone abroad at least for a few years. My own son has completed his PhD in the US (University of Maryland, College Park, ranked in the top 15 in Comp. Sc.) and currently employed in London in one of the best research labs on Artificial Intelligence. Even the undergraduates who did internships with me have gone abroad for further studies. Currently one of them is finishing his PhD in theoretical Condensed Matter Physics at the Ohio State University (ranked in top ten in that sub-field), another one (recipient of the prestigious Inlaks scholarship) just finished her Tripos III (Masters) at the Dept of Applied Math and Theor. Phys. at University of Cambridge, always ranked among top 3 in the world in Physics.

Most of these people I mention above have either come back and accepted faculty positions either in very reputed National Institutes (like TIFR Mumbai, SINP Kolkata, IMSc Chennai, HRI Bangalore etc.) or in IITs and IISERs. The ones that are still abroad, including my son, have plans to come back and would come back, I am sure.

Hence in all academic fields, coming back to India is not a problem at all. In fact it is encouraged that people go out and have international experience at least for a few years, and then come back. I have been on many selection boards for many years and I know the sentiments of all people there.

I would think, the situation is not too different in some engineering fields and fields like economics and business management.

For these reasons, I do not think, some of the opinions expressed above regarding jobs in India after a degree abroad is quite correct. That may be true for certain fields, but certainly is not true for technical fields.

UG education for foreign students is expensive in US and UK. It may be cheaper in continental Europe. One has also to keep in mind that quite a few state universities in the US are cheaper than private schools and they have good academic standing. For example, many of the Big Ten Universities, like Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Univ. of Michigan, Univ. of Wisconsin, The Ohio State Univ. are placed very high (top 20 or so) nearly in all subjects. Even Purdue is also quite good, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts. This is very significant - being state universities, their admission policies for in-state UG students are a bit lenient, but because of the strength of their graduate research programs, these still have respectable overall rankings. That means the students are taught by professors who are very successful in research. This is the root of good education - the faculty needs to be abreast of current research - something lacking deeply in UG education in India barring a handful of places. In contrast, a private niche place like Carnegie-Mellon (one of my almamaters) is very expensive.

Coming to Carnegie-Mellon (CMU) and it being ranked at number 1 in Comp. Sc (along with MIT, Stanford and Berkeley). My son was not offered at CMU for PhD, but he was offered for Masters there (this offer had nothing to do with me, I was in Physics, and almost all professors I knew there already passed away. My son had strong UG research experience. In fact he already did a fully paid UG internship at Univ of Chicago in the previous summer.). Now the actual difference between these two offers is funding (after doing Masters, people can go ahead and finish their PhD anyway) - for PhD, funding from university is guaranteed, but for Masters he had to talk to professors who could fund him fully from their research project funds. He did contact a couple of people, and both of them offered funding. I had discussions at home, and with a few of my friends in the US, and we came to the conclusion that if he takes money from project funding of a given professor, he would have to work full time for those projects, and his education (taking courses from some of the best mathematicians and comp. scientists) would probably suffer. We were sad for a few days, and decided in favour of University of Maryland at College Park, also ranked very high - just outside top ten in his field. In the end, he did a very good PhD and had all options of joining industry and/or academics. Tesla even offered him to drive one of their esteemed cars. My son, an excellent driver, took the offer of driving, but didn't go for the job. Instead, he accepted a job in a top research lab from where he can move back to academics if he wants.

The whole point of the above paragraph is that one needs to understand what the student wants to do, and what is best for him. Our son, despite being in the Bengal under-17 and under-19 cricket team, had academic inclinations, and it turned out better for him, I think. We would have the bragging rights if he went to CMU, but thank God, we decided otherwise.

At the end, I am thankful to the almighty that my wife and I had the good judgment that we decided to come back when we did. It would have been difficult if we waited any longer with our 4 year old son who was born abroad. I had to sacrifice many of my academic and career dreams, had to fight my way every inch of the way, even to buy a computer, had to design network and network-security for the whole Institute (something far outside my job) so that we have internationally competitive computing environment, and many such things. But at the end of the day, I am happy here.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by asitkde

After several pages, the subject has been treated quite extensively. After my 2 posts on page 2 of this thread, let me mention just a couple of more points from my own experience... But at the end of the day, I am happy here.

Sir,

All the pure science people are quite different. My roommate was an MSc Physics from Pune University. He started his PhD there and then reached a point in his research where he had no option other than to continue it in my university. His PhD in Complex Systems and Neurosciences could only be done in a few schools with a functional MRI machine at that time. It was a very interdisciplinary program which deals with Physics of Neuroscience (is what I was told). So, while the physicists who came to the program were taught neuroscience and asked to proceed, there were a handful of actual MDs who had to take up course work in theoretical physics in order to move their research forward. Some psychologists took other coursework that compensated for skills that they did not posses when they started the program.

Before he came to my university, my roommate gave an admission interview at IISc in Bangalore before deciding to come to the US. Right from the time we met, he was very clear that his only goal was to go back to a faculty position in India. After his graduation, he post-doctored at La Jolla Institute of Immunology near San Diego; then taught for a few years at UC Riverside, before finally accepting a faculty position at IISER, Pune.

The point is that the hard-core science type people are typically very very focused. They know what they are interested in because most of them are driven by a level of curiosity that is absent in the general population. Most others do not fall into this bracket.

I have no qualms in admitting that at this point, I do not care about acquiring knowledge at all. In fact, I never cared for it. I just told myself otherwise. All I wanted was / is to feed my family and to give them a comfortable life. It took me a long time to admit that to myself.

People should get clear in their head as soon as possible. If they should pursue anything in life, people should pursue clarity in self-image. That will go a long way in getting them to where they need to be.

Cheers

[asitkde]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

The point is that the hard-core science type people are typically very very focused. They know what they are interested in because most of them are driven by a level of curiosity that is absent in the general population. Most others do not fall into this bracket.

I have no qualms in admitting that at this point, I do not care about acquiring knowledge at all. In fact, I never cared for it. I just told myself otherwise. All I wanted was / is to feed my family and to give them a comfortable life. It took me a long time to admit that to myself.

Perhaps I have not been clear enough in my posts. To clarify:

Although I have written mostly from the perspective of a person with high degree of academic bent, and some of the finer points in my post may specifically apply to academic aspirants only, but the main points are quite general, and they are:

• Education in India, especially UG education, is not good. Therefore, whosoever can manage it, people should explore and try to be at a University/College in the West, preferably in the US or Europe at least for part of their education - UG, PG, PhD whatever.

• One should analyse seriously the University one finally chooses. The bigger name may not always be the optimal choice. Having said that, I do not recommend any place which does not have a good academic standing. Going to such a place just does not make any sense to me.

• People should come back and finally settle in India.

Only the final point one may have issues about. People may call me too idealistic. In my own view, I am just being practical. How can a country survive if a significant number of the trained population settles outside? In addition, as Narayan also pointed out, I do not think there is a significant difference now between the quality of a relatively affluent person in India and in US, for example, other than a few municipal and some such benefits. If I were an academician in the US today, I don't think I would have afforded much more in terms of material benefits (except for a bigger house, something of a norm there). In fact, I think the quality of life in Europe is much more rewarding than in the US now, despite me living in the US for nearly 10 years (the rest, 4 years I was in Germany). I don't think my son who lives now in central London wants to go back to the US. I have so many Indian friends and close relatives very well settled in the US, and majority of them are not very happy there, some (OCIs) are even contemplating coming back even at an advanced age.

A truly academic person only differs in one area: his/her priorities are the academics, not necessarily the material benefits.

Hence, you see, in the end, we may not have too different views. I think we agree more than we differ.

Correction: In my previous post, HRI Bangalore should have been HRI, Allahabad.

[hothatchaway]

Originally Posted by asitkde

[list]
Education in India, especially UG education, is not good. Therefore, whosoever can manage it, people should explore and try to be at a University/College in the West, preferably in the US or Europe at least for part of their education - UG, PG, PhD whatever..

Like to understand what is "good" education. You mean to say that a bachelor's degree taught in a Stephens, Xavier's, IIT, NIT et al isnt "good"?

With due respect to you sir, a major component of University education is peer learning, perhaps more in the social than the natural and physical sciences. Every social milieu, be it here or the west has its own merits. Just because it has been acquired in India and not one of the storied institutes in the west does not make it inferior in any sense. This is just our colonial hangover still casting a shadow.

Of course, the lush campuses and the sprawling corridors in the west have their own appeal. But it comes at a cost. It's great for those who can either win a free ride (almost impossible now especially at the UG level) or pay their way through. But the intense competition for seats at the University level belies the assertion that education in India isn't good enough. Of course, I am all for stints overseas. Gets you valuable cultural perspective. But that's a positive spin, not because I look down upon the local system

Where we used to lack and perhaps still do is an independent streak. That will come once we start believing that stuff here can be as good as anywhere in the world

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by navin

.. I believe almost 200,000 Chinese and about 100,000 Indians apply for (and get) Foreign Student Visas (F1) for the US alone.

As a number, 100000 is a drop in the ocean compared to the multitudes who seek education right here at home. Also, there are plenty of foreign students who come to India for education.

I am not saying that education in the west isn’t good. But education in India is not entirely bad either. At least compared to what we get out of it, the quality of the education is quite VFM.

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

..Just because it has been acquired in India and not one of the storied institutes in the west does not make it inferior in any sense.

Absolutely spot on. In fact, most students who are admitted abroad for post graduation gain their entry on the premise that their undergraduate education in India is at least equivalent to the education abroad.

When viewed in context, the education available in Indian institutions is as good as most places on earth. Yes, when it comes to pure research, schools in the west have a huge advantage due to their model of education and also due to their big tie-ups with industry. But, other than that, I think we do very well here.

Unless my kids are absolutely adamant about going abroad, I will never try to persuade them to take that route. The immigration challenges simply take away any gains that one makes in life.

It’s an entirely different thing that I will tell them to not invest in education beyond the bare minimum, and to get working as soon as they can.

Cheers

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

When viewed in context, the education available in Indian institutions is as good as most places on earth.

I cannot say much on this as my daughter's started schooling in Delhi in a mediocre school and moved to Dubai midway. One thing, they are God gifted brilliant and with a good parentage, they passed with flying colours and returned to India for U/G studies as hostellers. Here again they excelled in studies and moved to US for MS and ended up with PhD.

Now, sitting in my Balcony, I see school going children of all ages, returning home from school with heavy School bags. Before evening, I see the students rushing from one tuition teacher to another and this continues till night. This resembles quite like our college time where we, the students, would rush to next classroom after each period.

Now what baffles me is this phenomenon as neither we, nor our children have ever been a part of this. What is this ? A quality education ?
My Wife worked as Senior Hindi Teacher in Dubai. Most of the students being from South India, were neither good in Hindi, nor were bothered for it. When they approached my wife for Private Tuition, she refused and asked them to be attentive in class and clear any doubt on Telephone. No extra fees required nor wasting time in travelling. There was a marked improvement in the subject.

[V.Narayan]

Studying in India, studying abroad, doing a mix of the two, settling in India settling abroad are all very personal and unique decisions for each individual. One combination may work for one sibling but not for the other within the same family. There used to be a Western CEO {white, male, anglo-saxon} of a large large OEM related to aviation who served here for a decade plus. I am still in touch with him. He used to always say, and I quote, "there is something in the water Indians drink, I have never come across a more intelligent set of people". This was a guy who had served in Europe, Middle East, USA, Brazil and then India. So he had been around a bit. He didn't say this for effect. He meant it. I know him on almost back slapping terms. Sharing with all readers as we Indians tend to bash ourselves up a little too much.

My advice to my kids has been that they learn to be international citizens who can, with ease, straddle the India-USA bridge and work with equal comfort in both cultures & economies.I tell them don't become parochial "USA only" certified like some of our relatives who know how to live, work & survive only in more organized environment of USA and wouldn't last a year in the rough and tumble of India or China. That is the person who is needed for the world emerging in the coming 40 years. Members such as @Samurai, @navin among others are of this internationally agile category.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

With due respect to you sir, a major component of University education is peer learning, perhaps more in the social than the natural and physical sciences. Every social milieu, be it here or the west has its own merits. Just because it has been acquired in India and not one of the storied institutes in the west does not make it inferior in any sense. This is just our colonial hangover still casting a shadow.

Oh, no. It is not. I am sure he is referring to pedagogy, more than anything. I did undergrad in Bangalore University, under a pathetic pedagogy. Only when I did MBA in an UK university, I understood how much difference pedagogy makes. I also rejected life in USA and returned to India 16 years ago. You can't blame colonial hangover to those of us who did that. I had discussed this pedagogy difference back in 2016.

[hothatchaway]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Oh, no. It is not. I am sure he is referring to pedagogy, more than anything. I did undergrad in Bangalore University, under a pathetic pedagogy. Only when I did MBA in an UK university, I understood how much difference pedagogy makes. I also rejected life in USA and returned to India 16 years ago. You can't blame colonial hangover to those of us who did that. I had discussed this pedagogy difference back in 2016.

Your bad experience with one course in one University in India does not mean than UG education in India as a whole is to be written off. If that was the case there would be no takers for these courses in India, which includes people who have the resources to send their children overseas.

It's difficult to draw a parallel between a taught undergraduate degree (BA BSC BCom) with a postgraduate management program. An MBA PGDBA or whatever you call it relies a lot on case methodology, peer learning, working in groups whereas the objective in the former is centered around grasping academic concepts in the abstract sense. The "learning process" in a b school is less about academics and more about how actions and decision making processes pan out in a set of circumstances. Be that as it may, the correct comparison would be similar courses in similarly ranked institutes in different countries. While they have their HBS, MBS etc, our IIMs, XLRI FMS et al are not to be scoffed at either. It is not that there are no mediocre institutions in the west, regardless of what their marketing machinery professes.

A dispassionate comparison between educational courses as it exists in different countries is different from one person's decision of homecoming. The latter will have several personal considerations unique to that individuals circumstances which do not necessarily extend to a large group of people. The colonial hangover I speak of is not unique to individuals, it is a general phenomenon in our society which seeks affirmation about their own institutions from the world outside. Of course there are individuals who are exceptions to this.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

Your bad experience with one course in one University in India does not mean than UG education in India as a whole is to be written off. If that was the case there would be no takers for these courses in India, which includes people who have the resources to send their children overseas.

Ha, ha... I guess you are not familiar with the thread I linked in my post, which has plenty of stories going back over a decade. I have been recruiting fresh graduates every year since 2004 for my company, interviewing 100s of candidates in every batch, with candidates hailing from numerous colleges and universities. So I am pretty familiar with quality of lot more colleges than the one I attended personally.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

Your bad experience with one course in one University in India does not mean.... Of course there are individuals who are exceptions to this.

Sir,

This was an amazingly written post. You have laid out so many points that most people would not have had the time to think through or even consider. Very well laid out.

Cheers

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Studying in India, studying abroad, doing a mix of the two, settling in India settling abroad are all very personal and unique decisions for each individual. One combination may work for one sibling but not for the other within the same family. There used to be a Western CEO {white, male, anglo-saxon} of a large large OEM related to aviation who served here for a decade plus. I am still in touch with him. He used to always say, and I quote, "there is something in the water Indians drink, I have never come across a more intelligent set of people". This was a guy who had served in Europe, Middle East, USA, Brazil and then India. So he had been around a bit. He didn't say this for effect. He meant it. I know him on almost back slapping terms. Sharing with all readers as we Indians tend to bash ourselves up a little too much.

It's no coincidence that Indians form a disproportionately high percentage of senior management and leadership in companies across the world. From Anshu Jain to Satya Nadella, it is evident that Indians (and people of Indian origin), with their focus on numbers and competitive spirit, show a remarkable aptitude for material, financial, and corporate success.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

...be international citizens who can, with ease, straddle the India-USA bridge and work with equal comfort in both cultures & economies.I tell them don't become parochial "USA only" certified like some of our relatives who know how to live, work & survive only in more organized environment of USA and wouldn't last a year in the rough and tumble of India or China. That is the person who is needed for the world emerging in the coming 40 years. Members such as @Samurai, @navin among others are of this internationally agile category.

Yes, this is so critical. I think growing up in India gives you the ability to navigate and learn most other cultures (more organised) very fast. It's like they say - if you can drive in India, you can drive anywhere. Ease of living is very high in more orderly societies, and for us who grow up navigating a much tougher environment, it's a piece of cake.

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

Like to understand what is "good" education. You mean to say that a bachelor's degree taught in a Stephens, Xavier's, IIT, NIT et al isnt "good"?

Yes, I have made exactly that point in a previous post. I have the experience of undergraduate courses in comparably ranked universities, and the experience is more disparate than chalk and cheese. Just because your classmates in an IIT are smarter doesn't mean the college is better.

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

I have no qualms in admitting that at this point, I do not care about acquiring knowledge at all. In fact, I never cared for it. I just told myself otherwise. All I wanted was / is to feed my family and to give them a comfortable life. It took me a long time to admit that to myself.

A quick thought. Hope you will not take it too personal. To draw a BHP-ian analogy, in the 'accidents thread' we have seen examples of crashes leading to injuries or fatalities where there was an overcorrection or oversteering!

In the course of the life travels and travails, we all run into obstacles and issues, but an overcorrection, such as "I do not care about acquiring knowledge at all" could lead to more serious crash down the road!

The course certainly needs some correction, such as giving the respect and time to money that it always deserved...and "admitting that to oneself".

From reading some of your posts here, I also presume the alleged overcorrection in your writing was more rhetorical than literal.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

A dispassionate comparison between educational courses as it exists in different countries is different from one person's decision of homecoming. The latter will have several personal considerations unique to that individuals circumstances which do not necessarily extend to a large group of people.

Let's go dispassionate then, let us not have personal experiences taint the results.

How are Indian universities ranked with rest of the world? I picked ranking from two of most popular ranking web sites. Highly varying results, but one thing is clear. None are in the top 10, 50 or 100.