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Old 10th September 2020, 12:31   #31
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

In my personal experiences going for reasoning with any police officer is a complete waste of time. You will rarely encounter a sensible one who will be interested in knowing your side of the story. All they are interested in is getting there fine quotas filled. So, apply some common sense when it comes to such scenarios. Always wear a mask when you are approaching a red light or near it as most of them are hiding nearby to pounce once traffic stops. While driving if you are having trouble breathing in or feeling uncomfortable then keep it hanging around your chin. Always wear a mask when you are out in the public space. Still, if you forget and are stopped then just pay the fine and move on. No point pondering too much on such small things in life.
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Old 10th September 2020, 20:34   #32
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

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Originally Posted by Bibendum90949 View Post
I was just trying to indicate the technicality of how another person outside the car can be at risk too when we don't wear masks as we drive solo. Yes Doc, I agree to all your points of the circumstances that can lead to exposure.

Instead of refuelling scenario, let's consider if one drives the car without the mask and taking it to a car washing service or to the service centre. Wouldn't the attendant who enter your car to move it to the washing/service bay is at risk because the owner has been driving the car without a mask and may have sneezed , coughed or even talked loudly over phone and the aerosols may have settled on the steering wheel or any other part the other guy may end up touching. That's the premise I was trying to justify on the rational of wearing a mask even if we're driving solo.
These are illogical arguments. All masks do is reduce the amount of breath and resulting viral particle emitted. Reduce, not eliminate. So a person wearing a surgical mask or other make shift mask might reduce emissions by around 30 to 50%. A person wearing an N95 properly would reduce it by 70 to 90% but it very hard to wear an N95 properly for more than a few minutes. Either way after a person has been in a confined space, their breathing would fill up that space with viral particles with the passage of time unless there is ventilation. So if you are in your car for 30 minutes and are infected, the car would have plenty of viral particles regardless of whether a mask is worn. It is like filling a bucket with a larger hose vs. a smaller one. Given enough time it will fill up. However, opening the windows or a door will quickly bring in fresh air which will blow away such particles in a few minutes at the most. So I donít see any danger to either the petrol station staff or a person servicing the car. In any case they should wear a mask for their own safety.
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Old 10th September 2020, 21:34   #33
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

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Originally Posted by frewper View Post
I can't fathom why the policeman's point of view is important...
...an absurdity and misuse of law.
If this was another country where the penalty for not wearing a mask (or even wearing a mask improperly, such as below the nose) was $1652, we would all have worn masks, and worn them well.
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Originally Posted by frewper View Post
If the bike if moving with the engine ON, helmet has to be worn
If the bike has its engine running, and / or one is astride the bike, one had better be wearing a helmet. It's the intent that matters, not whether the bike is in motion or not.
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Originally Posted by Zen2001 View Post
Agreed that a mask should be worn while OUTSIDE in a PUBLIC place. What an absurdity to force anyone (who is not coughing/sneezing/otherwise a risk for others/risk to himself - in which case such a person FIRSTLY should not be outside) to wear a mask or any excuse for a mask, when alone in a car or with someone they live with in the same house anyway.
...
...laws should take into account the proven medical facts of VIABLE TRANSMISSION (not hypothetical) on this subject (& any other technical fact on any other subject) before being framed.
...
And on the scientific basis - masks do not offer any additional protection when worn by people who do not have upper respiratory systems or an ILI.
One missed word (in the part in bold above) makes a well-written post nonsensical. One SARS-CoV-2 emitter, even if asymptomatic, suddenly coming close to us, can mess up our complacence about not being at risk for being Covid-19 infected. Since there is not enough clarity in published medical literature about how easily this virus is transmitted, how virulent it is, or who are the most susceptible people, it would be eminently justified to err on the side of caution and keep a good mask on, make sure it seals properly against one's face, and stop arguing about the fallacy of wearing masks on threads like these. The policeman who confronted the OP could himself be a virus emitter, though asymptomatic (I would bet he was not using an N95 mask, or even wearing a mask properly).
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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
These are illogical arguments. All masks do is reduce the amount of breath and resulting viral particle emitted. Reduce, not eliminate. So a person wearing a surgical mask or other make shift mask might reduce emissions by around 30 to 50%. A person wearing an N95 properly would reduce it by 70 to 90% but it very hard to wear an N95 properly for more than a few minutes.
So now we have enforcement of mask-wearing considered to be "illogical"!? Considering that I spend extended hours wearing a non-valved N95 FFP2 mask, protected by a surgical mask over it, with a face shield and eyewear to top it off (all for professional reasons), I find the comment "...it (sic) very hard to wear an N95 properly for more than a few minutes" to be false and misleading.

If any of the readers here has access to good (not fake) N95 masks, and knows how to wear them properly with a full seal around the chin, mouth and nose, please wear them at any time that you are out of your own home, in any place where you might perchance come face-to-face with a stranger (or even a policeman), or even to simply comply with prevailing laws and rules.

And yes - an N95 FFP1mask will filter out 80% of particles of 0.3 micrometers diameter, an N95 FFP2 mask will filter out 95% of particles of 0.3 micrometers dia., and an N99 mask will filter out 99% of particles of 0.3 micrometers dia. I would happily wear N99s for a few hours daily rather than my N95 FFP2s, and I would still not have any breathing issues!

Last edited by Aditya : 14th September 2020 at 14:41. Reason: Personal remark deleted
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Old 11th September 2020, 02:58   #34
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

I feel sad for the OP. Law enforcement is supposed to take account the situation should use logic. India's legal system is bureaucratic. If you're fined wrongly, it can be hard to fight against the system. Best to follow the letter to the law and avoid giving them any chance. (Makes me sad to italicize the last phrase)

You don't want such incidents to affect police clearance procedures for future passport and visa applications as few cops can be dunderheads. (happened to someone driving with his senior citizen parents to a mourning during a bandh).

After all, we have experiences like:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...-say-cops.html (Pillion wearing helmet = Criminals on bike, say Cops)
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...t-licence.html (Wearing shorts to the RTO? You can't get a licence)

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 11th September 2020 at 03:08.
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Old 11th September 2020, 07:42   #35
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Considering that I spend extended hours wearing a non-valved N95 FFP2 mask, protected by a surgical mask over it, with a face shield and eyewear to top it off (all for professional reasons), I find the comment "...it (sic) very hard to wear an N95 properly for more than a few minutes" to be false and misleading.

And yes - an N95 FFP1mask will filter out 80% of particles of 0.3 micrometers diameter, an N95 FFP2 mask will filter out 95% of particles of 0.3 micrometers dia., and an N99 mask will filter out 99% of particles of 0.3 micrometers dia. I would happily wear N99s for a few hours daily rather than my N95 FFP2s, and I would still not have any breathing issues!
Completely agree with you on this. Wearing a good mask properly and avoiding high risk contact is our best hope at the moment. I wear an N95 whenever I go to a place where I can be exposed to another person. During my OPD hours which can last 4-6 hours a day, I wear an N95, goggles, double gloves and completely covering overalls. All this in a room where I cannot use the AC also. Found it difficult for the first two days, now all that has become like a second skin for me. Without them I feel naked and exposed
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Old 11th September 2020, 07:46   #36
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

It is very easy to point a finger at the enforcement agencies even during these hard times. But how many of us know that they are merely enforcing the rules/laws made by the higher ups. I feel that it's everyone's duty to follow rules/regulations issued by the government. If someone feels that the rules are not right, they have many grievances redressal mechanisms.

In this particular case, the fellow bhpian was carrying the mask in his hand but was not wearing it. That means he knew that he has to wear a mask but he chose not to.

No offense to the OP but IMHO he should have complied with the guidelines issued by the authorities.

Just think of those frontline warriors who are doing overtimes since last 6 months, those who sacrificed their lives saving others!! What we have to offer, nothing other than to comply with some rules which may or may not save us from the infection.

And those who are saying that wearing an N95 mask for longer duration is tough, please try a good quality N95. I have been using those since 20th April for 8 hours a day without any problem.

Stay safe.
Cheers

Last edited by Ry_der : 11th September 2020 at 07:50.
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:25   #37
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

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Originally Posted by frewper View Post
Around two days later when speaking to a friend on the phone, she mentioned how she and her brother were both fined when travelling in the car together. They were the only two people in the car and are siblings that live in the same house. So basically two people who live in the same house and have dinner together are fined because they are not wearing a mask in a car. How stupid!!!

I am not sure how to respect cops now. Are they either just DUMB or just stating laws and using no common sense. The law says if one person is the car he can not wear the mask. But what if two family members are travelling together? Nothing has been said about that and the cops are making merry charging fines from people who live in the same house.
It is not Police's job to determine whether two people in the car are from same household or not. People lie all the time. Their job is to enforce the law especially in this time of pandemic for our own good. I don't agree with lathi charges and many other approaches they have taken, but this is something we all need to get behind.
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:51   #38
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

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Originally Posted by frewper View Post
Around two days later when speaking to a friend on the phone, she mentioned how she and her brother were both fined when travelling in the car together. They were the only two people in the car and are siblings that live in the same house. So basically two people who live in the same house and have dinner together are fined because they are not wearing a mask in a car. How stupid!!
I went through a similar experience. I was stopped at a junction when travelling with my friend in my car. We both were wearing masks. I was asked to pay 100 rupees fine, because we had the air conditioner on. So apparantly there is a rule which deems air conditioners should be switched off to prevent the spread of covid between two people who are travelling in the same car. But then, when i enquired about who had asked them to collect fines based on private cars having their AC on or off, and that i am a student at the medical college, he just lets me pass.

Now, this makes me wonder if all this was just a money grabbing exercise without proper authorisation. Not to mention, asking me to wind my windows down (he must have stopped a number of other cars also) and exposing me to further chances of covid infection.
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:56   #39
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

Rules can be absurd and a lot of them are. In this current pandemic, the governments are all absolutely clueless and only care about optics. And making masks mandatory in every condition is good for optics. ideally and logically, we can have exceptions like the OP stated. Lot of other rules are also illogical like allowing 3 people in a car, as if the 4th person would raise the risk of Covid. But then as a common man we have to follow these rules. Also knowing that it isn't really possible to enforce a rule with so many exceptions that too in a country like ours where everyone wants to beat the system. It is simply impossible.

The government has now clarified, as shared by someone above, that mask is not mandatory for a person driving solo. Can people who have been challaned for this regardless, apply for a refund and an apology from the cops? Technically the cops conned you, scammed you and cheated you. In fact legally, one may be even able to paint it as misuse of power, collecting bribes by citing non-existent rules etc. Ideally yes but practically they would never do it.

In Delhi they are completely focussed on this right now. You can probably escape not wearing a seatbelt but a mask is mandatory. And I would still not risk an argument even when I am driving alone. Just not worth the hassle.

Last edited by drmohitg : 11th September 2020 at 10:58.
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:56   #40
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

Frankly, I think the reason that Covid had spread like wildfire in India despite having imposed the most draconian lockdown in the world at a huge economic cost (at least in the short term) is because our cops and government servants are untrained, arrogant and have no sense of priorities (and that is putting in charitably).

Early on, in Bombay, you had cases where cops came out and tried to Lathi Charge people walking in their own building compound. You had cops arresting a man for playing football with his son in Pune. At the same time, the cops themselves were travelling 6-8 in a Jeep going close to others, not wearing masks properly etc. Net result, hundreds of cops have fallen ill - and they have probably acted as vectors for spreading the disease.

The fact is that people who choose to travel together in a private car are taking a conscious call to be together in a confined space - and have every right to decide whether or not to wear a mask. People on a two wheeler who may infect others or passengers in a taxi or people in public transport, on the other hand must wear masks at all times. People walking or running outdoors and just passing each other are very unlikely to pass on the infection even if they are not wearing a mask. People standing and talking to each other, especially in a closed room, a very likely to pass on infections without a mask.

Hence the priority should be to ensure that people in taxis or buses or trains (when they restart) and in enclosed public places are wearing masks. The time spent harassing people in private cars or outdoors on a building terrace or garden detracts from time spent policing areas that need to be policed.

As for those who say you must follow the law, when we have laws that allow a Municipality to destroy someoneís home with 24 hour notice when the person is out of town, or to use the Epidemic Act of 1897 - imposed by a Colonial Administration before modern medicine was invented to demand unquestioned adherence to random irrational orders, people will not respect or follow such laws. Those with influence will bypass them - others will comply only when needed to avoid harassment. Respect has to be earned - not demanded, which is something that all organs of our state fail to realise. And until that happens, the outcome during events which need collective action will be just what we have seen - an unmitigated disaster.
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:58   #41
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

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Originally Posted by click View Post
but this is something we all need to get behind.
Yes we all need to wear masks. But I don't agree we need to support the obvious money making exercise that the cops checking for masks has become. Especially when the process of checking and interactions during that are itself causing both parties to expose themselves to further transmission risk!

Last edited by am1m : 11th September 2020 at 11:00.
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Old 11th September 2020, 12:12   #42
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

The very fact that Law can be interpreted in many ways and that the same law can be twisted by the high and mighty any which way they like is the reason that people in this country always question the laws. We all know how law differs for different people in this country.

Somewhere in the comments above, I read that one paid a fine in dollars for a stop line violation on some obscure highway where no one else was there. If that same incident happened in India then almost every time, we would probably bribe our way for settling the matter and we would probably do that happily to save some bucks and the authorities would accept that happily too. Thatís the perception which is too blame and not the system as such.

I have never worn masks inside my car ever since the lockdown started and when I am with my better half. Police have never fined me however they stopped me once but upon seeing that before talking I am putting on my mask, they let me. I admit, police donít use rationality many a times but itís also true that filling coffers is a major incentive to fine people arbitrarily.

Police in some states are going out of their ways to implement the mask rule according to their whims and fancies. No body told the police to spray disinfectants on the migrant labourers but they still did that, no body told the police to lathicharge migrant labourers who wanted to go home walking but they still did. As DBHPian Hayek said above, respect has to be earned and not demanded. The day people see the law enforcement agencies do their job following the law, the people at large will also follow them whole heartedly.

Quote:
Its funny how our administration works. While driving alone without mask (windows rolled up) has been allowed in Delhi, the Gurugram police is having entirely different opinion.
Validates my point above of interpretation of laws arbitrarily

Last edited by ABHI_1512 : 11th September 2020 at 12:26.
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Old 11th September 2020, 12:14   #43
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Default Re: Almost got fined for not wearing a mask

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So a recent news article in the TIMES of INDIA, Delhi on the 4th Sep is attached here for your reference
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Originally Posted by revvharder View Post
Looks like an order has been passed regarding this in Delhi.
Its funny how our administration works. While driving alone without mask (windows rolled up) has been allowed in Delhi, the Gurugram police is having entirely different opinion.

I am not going into which decision is right or wrong, but how health related rules like this can be 180degree opposite even in neighbouring areas. Not to forget the amount of people commute daily between Delhi & Gurgaon.

After the order from Delhi police came to light, a resident in Gurugram sought clarification from Gurugram police and below is their reply.

Almost got fined for not wearing a mask-whatsapp-image-20200909-7.06.35-pm.jpeg
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Old 11th September 2020, 12:27   #44
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Originally Posted by Ry_der View Post
It is very easy to point a finger at the enforcement agencies even during these hard times. But how many of us know that they are merely enforcing the rules/laws made by the higher ups. I feel that it's everyone's duty to follow rules/regulations issued by the government. If someone feels that the rules are not right, they have many grievances redressal mechanisms.

In this particular case, the fellow bhpian was carrying the mask in his hand but was not wearing it. That means he knew that he has to wear a mask but he chose not to.

No offense to the OP but IMHO he should have complied with the guidelines issued by the authorities.

Cheers
100% right!. If the rule states that a mask should be worn outside, it should be!.

There were no people around, I had a mask in my hand, I always follow the rules etc etc. There are a zillion variables like that. That is why blanket rules are made so that variables do not come in.

This is exactly the same as "I was riding/driving slowly, so no helmet/seat belt".

I too, on many occasions wondered why rules are not made using common sense. They should be applicable only where they are actually applicable until one fine day, I was fined for not wearing seat belt outside Manyatha tech park. I never ever drive without wearing the seat belt. Only on that day, as I was going to stop at the Indian Oil bunk outside the tech park, I was crawling at 10kmph and was about 200 metres away from the bunk when a cop caught me and fined me. I was about to justify my act, when I realised on what must be going through his head. Why should he care whether I am going to the bunk or home or a movie driving at 10 or 100. It was a public road and I had broken a rule. Period.
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Old 11th September 2020, 13:31   #45
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
So now we have enforcement of mask-wearing considered to be "illogical"!? Considering that I spend extended hours wearing a non-valved N95 FFP2 mask, protected by a surgical mask over it, with a face shield and eyewear to top it off (all for professional reasons), I find the comment "...it (sic) very hard to wear an N95 properly for more than a few minutes" to be false and misleading
Sir, with due respect, my comment was specifically about how wearing a mask in a car when you are alone is not necessary. I was trying to rebut arguments that not wearing a mask inside your own car poses a danger to the workers at a service station who might need to get in to your vehicle later or an attendant at a petrol station if you lower the window. I never stated that I was against mask usage. I fully support using a mask in a public place, even more so when you are in an enclosed space. If I am walking on a street and there are other people present, I always wear a mask. However, I will take off my mask if there is no one else around or in an empty garden, beach etc. I am fully cognizant of dangers to others and in places like a lobby, corridor, shop or a lift, I always wear a mask even if no one else is there. When I go to a mall or public building, I always wear a mask. However after a while if I go out to the garden or a terrace adjoining a mall, I do take off my mask for some relief if no one else is near me. This doesnít pose any danger to anyone. N95 is an overkill for normal public usage. I only use it if go in a very small crowded place like a hospital, metro coach or crowded bank etc. I donít see any need to wear a mask if I am on a deserted street and if I am caught and fined then so be it. Anytime I see a person approaching at a distance, I would obviously put on my mask. Here in NCR, no one is wearing a mask inside their societies since the beginning. I am the only one wearing it when using the lift, going to the local shop or travelling in the lobby. A few people used them sporadically till May and since then no one is using them. I see no need for a mask in open air as long as we stay a few feet away from each other.
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