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Old 3rd December 2020, 21:56   #106
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Originally Posted by Sree View Post
Since we are worried about small farmers getting hit. Why donít we just exclude them.
Anyway even for income tax - income below a limit is not taxable.
Let us first find out the average size of a farm in India. Let it be x acres.
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Originally Posted by Sandy Damodaran View Post
Unlike other manufacturing sectors, Farming (including poultry/meat etc) has an extremely variable cash flow attached to it.
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Originally Posted by irdevanand View Post
Sir, The average size of a farm in India is exactly 2.6 acres. You will find more details in this article.
https://www.business-standard.com/ar...0101057_1.html

Regards
Dev
Interesting discussion. The only solution is for the citizens to hold all the land (i.e. the government). The government will assign contractors to cultivate the crops as required and collect a fee and a percentage of the profits. This way the land bank can be easily made available for industrial use also. I think we've allowed a bunch of people to grab land and call it their own for long enough - I get it, it is a tradition, but it has not worked to the benefit of the entire nation, so it is time to change this model. No ownership of land.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 23:09   #107
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I am writing these thoughts at the risk of sounding too political, I apologize to the mods in advance if my thoughts are not in keeping with the decorum of our Team-BHP community and I request them to remove this post if they feel so.

As a nation, we have been dealing with extreme polarity probably not seen since partition in the past 2 years which will probably take decades to heal if ever, the autonomy of our democratic institutions (which are the pride of independent India) has been constantly eroded (please read this article by the esteemed 'The Economist' link), journalists are being harassed (both left and right) and most importantly for this thread, economic policies have been introduced at a whim without any consultation and our strongman just refuses to budge despite extraordinary evidence to the contrary.

As a scientist, I understand that humans innately have a craving to feel safe under a 'strong macho leader' but strong macho leaders are bad for society and bad for the economy. Look at Erdogan's Turkey or Putin's Russia for precedence. I am not one bit surprised about the economic slowdown we are facing right now as this is exactly what happened in Turkey, Russia or even Mrs. Gandhi's India but we Indians refuse to read the writing on the wall. Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.

PS for those who say other economies are shrinking as well, keep in mind that most economies including the US and EU aren't expected to shrink even half as much (in %) as India. Moreover, we've gone from 7% growth in 2017 to 10.3% degrowth in 2020 which is unprecedented for any major economy! A difference of almost 17% over 3 years. Numbers don't lie! We've single-handled gone from being 1/5th China's economy to being 1/6th. ONE-SIXTH!!!!!

PS on the surface at least, I do support the farm laws but again the government's arrogance in dealing with the farmers is unwarranted! We are a democracy with freedom of speech, expression and the right of assembly to protest, lest we forget!

PPS I had also supported demonetization, GST and lockdown because I didn't know better then, so might be wrong about the farm laws as well.

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Interesting discussion. The only solution is for the citizens to hold all the land (i.e. the government). The government will assign contractors to cultivate the crops as required and collect a fee and a percentage of the profits. This way the land bank can be easily made available for industrial use also. I think we've allowed a bunch of people to grab land and call it their own for long enough - I get it, it is a tradition, but it has not worked to the benefit of the entire nation, so it is time to change this model. No ownership of land.
That's called communism. Doesn't work, hasn't worked and will never work. Let's not go into that rabbithole again!

Last edited by dragracer567 : 3rd December 2020 at 23:13.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 23:23   #108
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This explanation seems fair as factual info provided is very convincing for the rationale behind the laws as well as protests.

It's a summarised yet fairly objective apolitical analysis of MSP & wheat markets.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 3rd December 2020 at 23:36.
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Old 4th December 2020, 00:02   #109
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...
That's called communism. Doesn't work, hasn't worked and will never work. Let's not go into that rabbithole again!
So, if I bought or grabbed spectrum, I should be able to pass it on to my progeny? Why would it ensure optimal use of a scarce resource?
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Old 4th December 2020, 00:30   #110
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So, if I bought or grabbed spectrum, I should be able to pass it on to my progeny? Why would it ensure optimal use of a scarce resource?
Good question. But when you go for collectivised ownership, the real owner is the government, not the people. And when you give so much power to the government, corruption thrives not productivity.

Iím not an economist but I know enough about economics to believe in the free-market but with sufficient government intervention to ensure that the rules are being followed. Gimmicks like land redistribution has never really worked (ask Zimbabwe). The best option would be to retrain workers away from agricultural jobs (which require land) to industry (real or virtual).

PS economists - sorry if Iím butchering your subject, science-stream here
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Old 4th December 2020, 07:03   #111
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Default Re: India is now officially in recession

Mod Note: Please be polite, civil & respectful even in debate. Anyone who gets too rude or aggressive will be banned from the thread. Thank you!
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Old 4th December 2020, 09:03   #112
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Covid 19 has hit almost every country in the world. With business shut for almost 8 months, any country is bound to fall down, no matter how good or bad the Government is. The question now remains, how to revive the economy without causing further damage.
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Old 4th December 2020, 11:27   #113
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Interesting discussion. The only solution is for the citizens to hold all the land (i.e. the government). The government will assign contractors to cultivate the crops as required and collect a fee and a percentage of the profits. This way the land bank can be easily made available for industrial use also. I think we've allowed a bunch of people to grab land and call it their own for long enough - I get it, it is a tradition, but it has not worked to the benefit of the entire nation, so it is time to change this model. No ownership of land.
China tried this innovation in agriculture between 1949-1970s, collectively called Maoism. It resulted in - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
(check the Illusion of superabundance section)

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Originally Posted by GrammarNazi View Post
This explanation seems fair as factual info provided is very convincing for the rationale behind the laws as well as protests.

It's a summarised yet fairly objective apolitical analysis of MSP & wheat markets.
. Agriculture does need reform but the current central Govt's proposal is incomplete. It is not holistic and tries to address part of the problem.
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Old 4th December 2020, 11:44   #114
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This explanation seems fair as factual info provided is very convincing for the rationale behind the laws as well as protests.

It's a summarised yet fairly objective apolitical analysis of MSP & wheat markets.
Good article explaining what is happening. But i am sure most of this is known even to the farmers? The article leaves out explaining how the bills actually solve this and how the farmers will not be exploited regardless. How this will be any different than anything from before which seems good on paper but very different in ground reality?

Sorry for my limited knowledge. I try to learn from threads like these which are unbiased.
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Old 4th December 2020, 12:17   #115
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So, if I bought or grabbed spectrum, I should be able to pass it on to my progeny? Why would it ensure optimal use of a scarce resource?
You can't own spectrum without the state protecting your claim, so in effect you pay a license fee for a term. You can pass it on to your progeny, provided you have paid for it and continue paying the license fee. This is based on the assumption that you own a telecom company, personally. Improper use of the spectrum means that you can't pay the license fee and forfeit your claim, that guarantees optimal use.

Ownership is key to proper functioning of any enterprise, absent which, you get what we call public services, that serve no one without enabling fees.
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Old 4th December 2020, 12:33   #116
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...
Ownership is key to proper functioning of any enterprise, absent which, you get what we call public services, that serve no one without enabling fees.
My point is that if it works for spectrum allocation, why wouldn't it work for land allocation. Land is another limited resource. We have a lot of historical baggage, but we got rid of privvy purses and we should do the same with land ownership. People have pointed me to the communist experience - my question is, do we need to repeat it exactly and fail again or can we tweak it to work better?
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Old 4th December 2020, 13:18   #117
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My point is that if it works for spectrum allocation, why wouldn't it work for land allocation. Land is another limited resource. We have a lot of historical baggage, but we got rid of privvy purses and we should do the same with land ownership. People have pointed me to the communist experience - my question is, do we need to repeat it exactly and fail again or can we tweak it to work better?
You have reached the "that wasn't real communism"
place pretty quickly. The answer to you question is that inequalities exist, certain items can't be quantified in terms of money, food security is an imperative for national sovereignty.

You certainly seen to think of farmers as parasites who eat taxes and are a waste of air. Do you suggest the same for those businesses that managed to get 6.32 lakh crores written off in the last eight years from public sector banks? Nearly half of it was from big borrowings in excess of 100 crores. I'm only asking because some forum members just go on like broken records about the 2008 farm loan waiver as if all farmers were handed out American express cards to splurge.

The country is officially in a recession, that's because you need two quarters of continuous negative growth for it to be a recession. The man on the street doesn't need an economist to tell him things are bad and getting worse. Destroying primary production in the interests of trading profits is going to end badly, we're destined to remain a plantation economy, sweatshops of different hues.
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Old 4th December 2020, 13:59   #118
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You have reached the "that wasn't real communism"...
... trading profits is going to end badly, we're destined to remain a plantation economy, sweatshops of different hues.
Sorry if I appear insensitive to the plight of farmers. I did not think through every detail. My thinking is that if poor farmers are not really benefitting from reforms or otherwise, it would benefit if they worked as employees of a contractor. Land owning is similar to owning the spectrum - the people of this nation, that's us, need to buy out the squatters and repurpose it for the benefit of all. I am talking idealistically. Of course, the landowners would have to be compensated - again, all this is hypothetical. But think about it, this is the same "eminent domain" principle used to buy out land for public services like roads or the metro.

Our system fails in many ways because vested interests are able to get themselves special favors by lobbying those controlling the pursestrings of public exchequer.

I don't think of farmers as parasites, most of them are getting a bad deal, but they cannot upskill or just disappear. We are still discussing crop insurance, when it should be mandatory. We pay them a pittance and expect them to battle the international markets and juggle their finances, basically they have to tackle manipulators at all levels - they would be better off getting a decent salary for growing crops and allowing corporations with their high powered lawyers, MBAs, lobbyists, etc, battle it out (not really a good idea) with their peers. Isn't this how we do our own jobs, we concentrate on our own areas and allow the management to take care of running the enterprise?
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Old 4th December 2020, 17:22   #119
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We were already in a recession caused by demonization before the pandemic. Its not Covid but the ill planned lockdown that made it even worst. Folks knew this virus was coming in Feb and did nothing since we had our 'chi-wala's' best friend visiting. Anyway that's a discussion for another day.

About the farmer protest I think neither the govt. nor the farmers know what exactly is in those bills. There are hundreds of tones of wheat and rice rotting away in warehouses feeding rodents and you still want to fight to grow more of the same? There is a huge market for fruits, vegetables, eggs, fish etc and govt should show the farmers how to get into those. Farmers should fight to get exports back on track.

Above all there is a word called 'empathy'. Its seriously lacking in our present scheme of things. There is no discussion. There is no opinion. There is no scope for 'agree to disagree'. You are either with us or them. Its time our supreme leader and his team spend some time with flowers and kids.
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Old 4th December 2020, 19:01   #120
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Looks like the gamble Bolsonaro took is paying off!
https://www.livemint.com/news/world/...018209667.html
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