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Old 21st April 2021, 23:05   #106
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

I'm sure that there are plenty of people "losing their shirts" around here (Manali) but I haven't met any of them yet.

The farmers will keep growing various things, those with homestays and cottages and even just regular apartments are fully booked, many of them longterm, with the flood of work-from-home IT people and also well-heeled families running businesses remotely - for whom the dream of a permanent home in the hills now actually seems feasible.

There are still those locals / outsiders with crores in the bank (or with good loan access) looking for personal entertainment / outlets for spending, who are still busy putting up or (once again) renovating large buildings. Even when the numbers and business models seem seriously shaky.

Owners and / or lessees of typical lower & midrange hotels, and guys working in various activities up at the typical tourist points must really be feeling the pinch (though most of the latter are from (apple) farming families and not without other income to fall back on) - but in some ways you can't help but think the area hasn't seen the pain (yet) that many other parts if India have, as described in other posts here.

But people here, too have become loan-dependent, and not sure what will happen if banks are forced to begin collecting on those. In the U.S. a few years back all that over-extension led to countless foreclosures; here the culture of bad loans is entrenched and almost entitled it would seem.

Personally I did more business with our products/services (room heaters, premium fruit jams, bicycles) than ever last year... Just the right kind of things for serving an upscale crowd in Covid times - BUT for "normal" (middle-class and basically landless) people like ourselves, the downside of all this that this flood of urban escapees have in short order driven rent prices (of accommodations suitable for families) to double or triple what had been the going rates last year. Other downside is that the landlord of my workshop just told me I'll have to move out within a few months, as he's converting the property from shops and several low-cost one-room sets to three upper-end 2bhk units...

Strange times.

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 21st April 2021 at 23:09.
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Old 21st April 2021, 23:06   #107
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

I had been personally hit due to lockdown. I use to practice architecture and teach part time as well.

I just finished a turnkey project in Feb 2020 and was looking for couple of others which were in pipeline.

First 3 months of lockdown did not bother me, but then the next 3 months did hit on my liquid savings.

After resuming since August 2020, I realised the industry dynamics were different, I had to take up projects which were not my usual cup of tea. Realised it was impacting my state of mind and personal life. Hence I winded up by December, and decided to take a full time job as a teacher.

Now I work as a Assistant Professor teaching Architecture at a reputed college in Chennai; I enjoy what I do, but I would like to admit this COVID ate up all my liquid savings, although I still possess some personal assets to bank upon, need to admit that this lockdown gave me a new perspective to life.

Currently with the second wave happening and being in Chennai, I am scared actually, much worried about the less fortunate.

The present socio economic and political situation of our country (particularly Tamil Nadu) is also much discouraging, Hoping for the better, God bless us.
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Old 21st April 2021, 23:26   #108
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

And I still see a lot of people without masks, even in hospitals. I can observe this as I take my father for kidney dialysis. During the last session I observed that many patients undergoing dialysis had either fully removed their masks or had slid it below the chin and were snoring away to glory.

Upon requesting, the staff warned them, and the masks were on.... Only for a minute or two. Mind you, all these patients are at a much higher risk of adverse effects from Covid 19. And they know it - they have seen many of their fellow patients being consumed by Covid in the last year.

If these guys aren't worried, then I am not really surprised by the attitude of the mango people.

Last edited by Samurai : 21st April 2021 at 23:46. Reason: avoid sarcasm
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Old 22nd April 2021, 00:25   #109
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
I'm sure that there are plenty of people "losing their shirts" around here (Manali) but I haven't met any of them yet.

Other downside is that the landlord of my workshop just told me I'll have to move out within a few months, as he's converting the property from shops and several low-cost one-room sets to three upper-end 2bhk units...

Strange times.

-Eric
Similar situation in Coorg, all resorts and home stays were packed with folks travelling on this route from Bangalore on weekends. Hope you do find a place soon.

The Covid 2nd wave is scary and definitely hitting closer to home. My neighbors wife is positive and the neighbor removed all the traces of a containment zone from his gates today, so it’s going to be a interesting day tomorrow. Our maid and husband went for a house warming of their son a week back and have come back with symptoms and also news that one of the guests at the event passed away! So one round of Covid tests is ongoing in their family.

Above two situations are clear indication of how people threw the caution to the wind and did what they felt like. No washing of hands or masks in crowded places. Additionally kids in many states started school and apartments started their play area and this spread just reached insane levels.

Stay safe, wear masks and get vaccinated! Expect the worst and please avoid the stupid expenses.

Maddy
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Old 22nd April 2021, 01:07   #110
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
It is also a better place because of decent human beings like yourself. Take a bow. Or maybe, stand for election!
Please do not stand for elections! Most of us who are on these forums will never vote. The ones who actually vote will never vote for you.
Ergo, we will get the government we deserve. The swing vote in major urban areas i.e. the great middle class generally take a holiday during elections rather than do their duty. How will things change?

Taking a slight detour from the covid ranting, one thing that we forget in India is that there are quite a few schemes for poverty alleviation and social security both from the central government and state government. In a nutshell, it would ensure the majority do not starve and can maintain a basic standard of living.
The Kerala government did a fabulous job of ensuring its migrant workers did not starve. I am sure in Karnataka the public private partnership ensured starvation was a minimum. I cant claim to know about other states.
However, over the past decade or so, the last mile distribution has improved to a great extent. I think educating our most vulnerable about the welfare schemes is the greatest service we can do for the country.

Coming to the great indian middle class and covid, it is totally our overconfidence that has led to the current state of affairs. Blame our governments as much as we want, but I have seen the change in perception, mask wearing behavior and general contention that Covid is nothing but a common cold and a major government conspiracy on top of that! Unfortunately, unlike the truly poor, we are truly vulnerable as our financial security is completely upto us. Quite perversely, so is India's economic growth engine.

And no, the rest of the world is not safe if India goes to hell. We have our double and triple covid mutants that are not going to remain contained. I just hope we come back to our senses and show sensible behavior.
Now is the time for us to work together to help as much as we can as no one is going to help us!

My prayers to the ones fighting this disease and condolences to all fellow bhpians who have lost their loved ones.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 01:58   #111
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

I live in a gated community in Hyderabad mostly populated by IT people and some doctors/pharma company executives. Its paradise here. The IT guys are enjoying work from home and spending time with their kids. With US printing money and the US stock market hitting new high, people with RSU and ESOPs (company stock) have actually got richer. Same with the pharma guys. But the most fun is being had by the doctors. Many of them have upgraded to German sedans. I always see them coming home on time. A contrast to the over worked "covid warrior" working 24/7 image media projects. May be it is true for Government Hospital doctors. But doctors working for posh private hospitals are having a good time. Only people who seem to have suffered are the maids/drivers etc. Many households have installed dishwashers and got robotic vacuum cleaners like Roomba. I think the loss of the maids may be permanent as these household may not want their services even after the pandemic is over.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 03:17   #112
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
It is also a better place because of decent human beings like yourself.
Thanks man. Credit to my parents. My dad is in the legal profession and I have grown-up hearing about rental dispute cases. So our priorities are kind of different. Good tenant > rental $.

I think that's what GTO mentioned as well. He's willing to let the property be vacant in search of a good tenant.

A number of people have reported how strangers helped them out. It's good to read these and I hope they become the majority.

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Originally Posted by Diesel9999 View Post
I did everything I could. But all doors closed on my face. Luckily, a good samaritan helped me out in a different city. Now the vials are being brought by road in the hope that they'd do their magic.
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Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
2005 :
PPS - I havent fired my babysitter too, my lil'girl is pampered by the whole gang back home! babysitter, wife, bro, grampa...


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Originally Posted by sunishsamuel View Post
It's the emotion attached with "Apna Ghar" and sometimes the passive aggression by the "other half" that forces many to take loans at higher interest and buy apartments/houses with less probability of a favourable return on investment. Think about it logically and many will realise that there are better ways to invest and eventually own the dream house with savings/return from investments. But then, to each their own!
I know what you mean. It mostly makes sense to own than to rent if that's going to be their primary residence. I was referring to the 2nd or 3rd houses people buy on loans.

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Originally Posted by pratyaksh View Post
Can we bring about real change with some fundraising for people in need or something of value for the people. I don't know but just a thought!
Of course you can. Start with your own home, surroundings and connections. Like domestic help, drivers, your local iron shop etc. I personally find it conflicting to donate to unknown sources when back home our domestic help's salary is unfortunate to say the least.

Last edited by kiku007 : 22nd April 2021 at 03:21.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 04:59   #113
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
If, if indeed we have vaccinated 10% then yes it is a sizeable number in the time available. But that is a very big if. I do not know if these Govt figures can be relied upon. Fact is the figures on deaths and infections have been fudged by some or most State Govt's with tacit and active support of the Central Govt. The fudging is so blatant that it is worse than a joke. So how can we say that the very same Govt's are putting out accurate or even reasonably accurate numbers about the vaccinations.
And we speak of fudging as if it is a part and parcel of governance in our country. Just try and imagine what is going on behind the scenes because the fudging doesnt happen by accident. They are perhaps sitting in a meeting room somewhere and discussing the pandemic and instead of doing what needs to be done, for damage control or to save their so called image, they thought the first thing that they needed to do was fudge the numbers at all costs, even refusing admissions to critically ill patients unless they produce a letter. The life of a citizen in this country isnt even worth a number. And I dont blame the government, we elected these monsters high on the opium called religion and hate.

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Originally Posted by viscosity View Post
I am hoping against hope that whenever we come out of this mess, hopefully people will carry forward the lessons learnt and it will pave a path towards a better India. For example, after World War2, Japanese folks worked like crazy to develop their nation and make it a powerful self sufficient economy.

Sharing some life learnings :
  • Don't take too much debt when things are going good
  • Save for the rainy day when things are going good
  • Be always prepared that you may lose your business or fired from your job the very next day. Build a Safety Net.
  • Assume that no one from government will come to your help
  • Keep good relationships with friends, family and neighbours and with Bhpians here
  • This pandemic has shown what is the real value of such relationships and stop thinking that we can live independently in our cocoon as long as one has sufficient money. Twitter is having some many tweets from people with blue ticks to their name who are pleading for medicine, oxygen, bed etc.
  • Pandemic has shown how fragile life is, so be humble, keep an attitude of gratitude and don't forget to drive, love your automobiles everyday
  • Media is a business and it sells propaganda and not news
  • Government or State is no different from a mafia and the taxes they collect is no different from a Hafta (weekly allowance for providing protection) Mafia collects
  • When we all go to vote next time, please vote only for development and leave all other latest hot topics related to religion, caste, nationalism etc aside
  • Last but not the least, remember Mr. Murphy --> if things can go wrong, they will
I am sorry but i just dont agree with you. Why do we need to make all these sacrifices in our daily lives after paying taxes (everyone pays indirect taxes) while the elected representatives move around in cavalcades of tens of cars, billion dollar aircrafts and having their already lavish homes enriched with further billions of dollars upgrades spending. We are in a democracy, however fractured it might be right now, and the solution isnt to make peace with current situation and the future but to change it and we have the power to change it. Demand probity, vote sensibly, love, trust and respect your fellow citizen irrespective of religion or their personal faith, dont be a fan and make sure politicians are afraid of your vote.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 05:37   #114
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by matizcrazy View Post
Regarding the financial part, every human being is responsible for their own financial well being.
I'm sure that aged women who were once home makers and small children are highly financially literate.

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
If, if indeed we have vaccinated 10% then yes it is a sizeable number in the time available. But that is a very big if. I do not know if these Govt figures can be relied upon.
China has vaccinated under 15% of its population. Unless India counts even the first shot as vaccination, I don't believe those numbers.

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Originally Posted by sharatravan View Post
It's easy to blame the political fraternity for all our problems but fundamentally speaking - Who are these politicians? Where do they come from? Who put them in the place that they're occupying? What has the 'Over'populated India done to make them accountable? What has this 'Over'populated India itself done to uplift itself from its misery?
That's like saying 'don't blame rapists and murderers, they are just as human as us'. I agree that we shouldn't let them be unaccountable, but then look at the post I've quoted below.

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Originally Posted by matizcrazy View Post
I would not resort to judgements on the Govt because I am very happy personally that prompt decisions are being taken despite the numbers being reported.
Congratulations to you on being happy at the 'prompt decisions' because you got vaccinated. The rest of us are worried not because we aren't vaccinated, but we have some empathy for the millions in our country who are dying, or being pushed into poverty. I guess you missed the tone and purpose of this thread.

Last edited by vb-saan : 22nd April 2021 at 07:47. Reason: Quoted post edited/deleted, removing related response. Thank you!
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Old 22nd April 2021, 09:28   #115
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by viscosity View Post
Japanese folks
Well, that's how you differentiate 'population', from 'human resources'. IMO, we Indians are among or probably the most selfish lot in the world, we even choose governments on the aspects of our personal benefits, and not for the larger cause. Isn't it?

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Don't take too much debt when things are going good
This one is always atop my list, driving an i10 without any thoughts of EMI is better than driving a Creta with EMI haunting you everyday. A lot of debt on the head simply hurts the self righteousness IMO, people start compromising a lot in life and even their rights at workplace just because they are scared of losing their source of income.

Quote:
Assume that no one from government will come to your help
After govt officials and hospital staff are blaming each other due to the 'massacre', that happened in Nashik last day, your word is indeed true. A preventive maintenance failure caused 22 people run out of oxygen, and then their lives - on the ventilators; such a sad state!

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vote only for development and leave all other latest hot topics related to religion, caste, nationalism etc aside
Most of us, if voted, did for that only, but this opium called 'power' is like this only!

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
I'm sure that there are plenty of people "losing their shirts" around here (Manali) but I haven't met any of them yet.
Situation isn't as good in Mussoorie and Nainital, with COVID negative report of 'tested within 72 hours' mandatory to enter Uttarakhand; it has wrecked a havoc on the hospitality industry. Mainly the visitors are from Delhi-NCR here, and they are simply not stepping out of their houses.

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Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
Its paradise here. The IT guys are enjoying work from home and spending time with their kids. With US printing money and the US stock market hitting new high, people with RSU and ESOPs (company stock) have actually got richer
It's indeed a fact, lockdowns, reduced travel and rising value of ESOPs has actually got many IT service provider guys richer now. That's the reason I say "Indian Economy is now looking at the service sector itself, be it IT service or healthcare service".

Quote:
But the most fun is being had by the doctors. Many of them have upgraded to German sedans. I always see them coming home on time
In every project, there is always an overworked team of people who is at the actual core of it. In contrast, I personally know this guy who is a single digit rank holder of AIIMS (that too in second attempt itself), very fine and dedicated chap. Working in a tier II city (Not any metropolis), aged just 39 but driving one British sedan since 3 years and got a new 'top of the helm' German SUV on last Diwali. But his timings are haywire, spending daily 15-16 hours in his hospital, and at times spending 24-36 hours there itself with small power naps. No wonder, he is a celebrated doctor in the small city and is doing very well in his career even since pre-covid era.

So it's the choice of people, some just give themselves in, in the hour of need, and some simply make the hay while the sun shines. Everyone knows which category goes further in long run. I know government electrical contractors who used to probably drink Jack Daniels even in the place of water too, but since this COVID began, the guys have just given up themselves, driving to places to assure that hospitals function properly, installing DG sets, maintaining all equipment in top shape, getting their own hands black time and again. Even last year too, I know people who had 2 chauffeurs just because their cars were on the roads for 24 hours, like a second home. We all are talking about oxygen supply, I know the electrical contractor who, with his team is stationed at an Oxygen plant as third party support (Not seen his kids since over a week) since multiple days, with his mobile internet and Whatsapp off, just assuring that the plant faces no failure and keeps working full time at peak capacity. Such a work is expensive and loss making, but the guy is clear "bhai paise toh fir kama lenge, aaj kaam kar lete hain (money we will make later, let's work today)".

If we are still managing to contain the situation to some extent, it is not because of the guys who came home on time, it is mainly because of the guys who are working hard enough to let others go home on time.


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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Good tenant > rental $.
This is the unwritten, but golden rule of earning rental income!

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
And we speak of fudging as if it is a part and parcel of governance in our country.
IT's a norm now!

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Demand probity, vote sensibly
Representation of People act has given us unlimited powers, but we need to practice it. People need to take a day off and go to vote, some simply go for a holiday on that day!

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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Unless India counts even the first shot as vaccination, I don't believe those numbers.
We are indeed counting everyone who has received even one dose in the list of inoculated. Best is done by Israel, 119 doses per 100 people, we are at around 8 I suppose - being the 'pharmacy of the world'.

Last edited by GTO : 23rd April 2021 at 07:43. Reason: Strictly no discussion on politics or politicians please. Thanks
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Old 22nd April 2021, 09:49   #116
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by pkk077 View Post
Fair point. But then vaccinating about 10% of our population in such a short time actually should be considered a reasonable success than a failure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
If, if indeed we have vaccinated 10% then yes it is a sizeable number in the time available. But that is a very big if. I do not know if these Govt figures can be relied upon.... how can we say that the very same Govt's are putting out accurate or even reasonably accurate numbers about the vaccinations.
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Originally Posted by pkk077 View Post
Number of vaccines being supplied to each state is very tightly controlled and records being kept. The numbers of vaccines being wasted is also being openly discussed. Each person being vaccinated is being asked for Aadhaar and they get an SMS on their phone post the jab. Barring some minor tracking error, it's unlikely that all states and centre would get together to pull this level of fraud.
Dear @pkk077 thank you for your input. What you say is correct.

All,

As a peripheral healthcare worker I get to see, every day, what @pkk077 says. I will agree that in some States, that I get to see, it is indeed surprisingly well organized. I also agree that give or take a little 14 crores vaccination shots have been administered. What the Govt is counting are shots not people. A person is vaccinated, in my humble view, when he/she has received both the vaccinations stipulated. This 14 crore number includes some like frontline folks and some oldie goldies, like me, who have received both shots and some, like the young folks on Team BHP, who have received only the first. So what the Govt is saying is that 14 crore shots have been administered but the words being used are 10% of the population has been vaccinated which is incorrect. If all those 14 crore shots were to be given only to those who have got it twice then 7 crore citizens, theoretically would have been vaccinated i.e. roughly 5%.

It is a play on words to express incorrectly - deliberate or otherwise I do not know. The Govt and our IQ starved media are both equally to blame.

This is like a Minister saying we have built 100 kms of a road. He means lane kms and the layman things 100 kms of a 2-lane highway. In reality what is built is a 50 kms long two lane highway.

This is what I mean when I say numbers are being fudged. If as a lowly worker I see this every morning and understand what's going on I am sure the worthy Union Ministry of Health & family Welfare knows it too. .They aim to vaccinate every one above 18. That is 83 crores roughly. So 166 crore vaccinations are needed, two per person, to cover that 18+ population.

With good sense having finally dawned and the whole supply and procurement being opened up to State Govts and the private hospitals I suspect the vaccination pace will pick up in these next three months. Speaking on the Govt's behalf fact is that in several rural and semi-urban areas citizens are not coming forward to get themselves vaccinated even at govt hospitals where it is free. Last week we went to some of the villages around the town outside where one of the hospitals I am associated with sits. The sarpanch told us in chaste Haryanvi that Corona is a illness of the rich city dwellers. It isn't there in his village so why are we bothering him! In the cities the desire to get vaccinated is there but not so every where.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 22nd April 2021 at 10:00.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 09:51   #117
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post


We are indeed counting everyone who has received even one dose in the list of inoculated. Best is done by Israel, 119 doses per 100 people, we are at around 8 I suppose - being the 'pharmacy of the world'.
Surely Israel with its tiny population of just around 1cr cannot be a marker for India. That's probably less than population of Delhi.

The challenges for both countries are quite different. 130cr people are 130cr people. That many more challenges. It's easy to rant against the government and the administration but just put yourself in their shoes and try to find solutions instead and that maybe will help a bit more here.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 09:59   #118
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Surely Israel with its tiny population of just around 1cr cannot be a marker for India. That's probably less than population of Delhi.

The challenges for both countries are quite different. 130cr people are 130cr people. That many more challenges. It's easy to rant against the government and the administration but just put yourself in their shoes and try to find solutions instead and that maybe will help a bit more here.
And why are you looking at population as just a liability, a young population at that? You dont think if there was positive propaganda all over the news, focus on education, scientific temperament and data based decision making, liability and accountability that things would have been better or atleast different? I have seen and felt what administration in Delhi has been able to do in various they have full control off even with curtailed power and now a bill which has been passed in the parliament curtailing powers of an elected government and giving it away to the LG? You think that was for the benefit of people? There is no excuse for poor governance after that level of mandate. Government is NOT a victim, people are. You think the wasteful spending of billion upon billions of dollars on jumbo jets and vanity projects is for the good of people?

Last edited by extreme_torque : 22nd April 2021 at 10:06.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 10:20   #119
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by himarg View Post
And I still see a lot of people without masks, even in hospitals. I can observe this as I take my father for kidney dialysis. During the last session I observed that many patients undergoing dialysis had either fully removed their masks or had slid it below the chin and were snoring away to glory.

Upon requesting, the staff warned them, and the masks were on.... Only for a minute or two. Mind you, all these patients are at a much higher risk of adverse effects from Covid 19. And they know it - they have seen many of their fellow patients being consumed by Covid in the last year.
Never underestimate human stupidity I guess.

If you can't be bothered to wear a mask right, then you probably deserve what's coming to you. The unfortunate side effect is that these idiots spread the virus and put more than just themselves at risk.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 10:21   #120
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Re: Covid-19 pushes India’s Middle Class toward poverty | Job losses & business closures

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
What the Govt is counting are shots not people. A person is vaccinated, in my humble view, when he/she has received both the vaccinations stipulated. This 14 crore number includes some like frontline folks and some oldie goldies, like me, who have received both shots and some, like the young folks on Team BHP, who have received only the first. So what the Govt is saying is that 14 crore shots have been administered but the words being used are 10% of the population has been vaccinated which is incorrect.
The vaccination numbers reported by every country are total vaccines given, which will include those with only one shot and those who received both shots. When ultimately a country's entire population is vaccinated, the total numbers reported will be double the population number. That is a given.

But visit the Ministry of health website and check out the total vaccination numbers. Also visit the link given for state-wise vaccination numbers. We can see break up for total vaccinations, single shot taken and two shots taken. The single shot figures indicate more or less 10% of the population has received at least one shot. For some states the percentage is more, for others it is less. But the juggernaut is rolling.

Total vaccination as of 8.00 AM today : 13,23,30,644
First dose : 11,31,47,596
Both Doses : 1,91,83,048

https://www.mohfw.gov.in/
Gansan is online now   (5) Thanks
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