Team-BHP - My negative experience with a water softener for the entire house

Quote:

Originally Posted by reignofchaos (Post 5238416)

I spoke to the sales folks of this company - it is a pure scam in the name of a water softener. At best it is a glorified water filter.

Thanks for the update, Not sure how did you conclude it is scam by just speaking over the phone. As mentioned I am using this product for last 6+ months and few others are in my society is also using this product. I am happy with end result probably not to level of dedicated softener but for me that is fine as I don't need to add salt/regeneration process once every 15-20 days.

My recommendation is based on the amount of salt formation before and after using this filter and I don't see that much salt accumulated in my appliance/vessel and what ever accumulated can be removed easily.

My intention of that post is to show the new product/technology available in the market which is cost and time effective at least for me. As mentioned already I don't have any affiliation with this company and every one is free to use whichever is comfortable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthian (Post 5237746)

@katchkamalesh:

I am building a new house and the bore water is quite hard ~1800 TDS. Thought of installing a water softening plant for the whole house but after your comments, need advise. At present i m looking at the following plant from Hashe.

Any experiences with this brand?

Attachment 2261480

I had done the same blunder of installing a brine based system. Even though I didn't face much issues in terms of quality (I installed an unbranded system) it is a big hassle, and wastes a lot of water. I strongly suggest you don't go for such a system. Look for a system which needs maintenance rarely, and which you can do on your own if needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki (Post 5238419)

Yup, there are multiple vendors of same/similar products who claim to use some 'crystal' inside the tube which will deactivate the water hardness. I was also tempted to get one of these when I was looking for a softener. But somehow the intellectual part of me was never convinced about the veracity of the product. It was not cheap either. Some 30K odd IIRC. Finally went with 3M passive softener unit.

I have been trying to find a technical explanation for these types of water conditioners for more than 10 years now but have not come across any scientific paper. Some claim they have a special anode, some are electrical and some magnetic. In the absence of any scientific evidence it is no use wasting money. The only way TDS can be reduced is by Reverse Osmosis. It may be noted that though TDS or Hardness is not a health hazard upto around 1200 ppm, however it creates scale and interferes with dishwashing and clothes washing. In industry a sequestering agent such as polyphosphates is used to cause scale of deposit on hot surfaces. The same technology is now being used by 3M in there whole house online filters which doses ppm quantities in water. I am a chemical engineer and after retirement I am helping my architect wife and son in services in their projects.

Just sharing our experience here;

The situation was very similar - about 20 years ago when we built our house in the HBR Layout area in Bangalore. Groundwater was very brackish and hard don't remember the TDS numbers but it was basically unusable. The water from BWSSB was ostensibly from Cauvery, but we discovered that BWSSB authorities mixed borewell water when Cauvery supply was less or down. Our IFB washing machine was the first victim and we decided to procure the Ionexchange (now ZeroB) water softener, after doing some homework.

At that time, it was only manual models that were available, and we procured and installed it. Fortnightly regeneration using brine, regen and backwash procedure as prescribed by Ioexchange (slow rinse and fast rinse) kept our washing machine, solar water heater (no electrical geyser in any of the bathrooms) and all our faucets, showerheads are all clean with no scaling at all.

The system is still in use, have refreshed the resin once in 20+ years of operation. The water supply has improved significantly (later phases of Cauvery supply) and regeneration is only required once a month. I don't have an AMC, just maintaining it on my own and when there is an occasional leak, use the neighbourhood plumber to fix the problem.

The original pressure gauge is long gone, have replaced it once. The multi-port value still works, the bolts on it require tightening once in a while. But other than this - no other problems.

Water conditioner and water softeners are entirely two different technologies. Water conditioners haven't been able to replace water softeners as they "condition" the water to not adhere to surfaces. A lot of work has been done (available out there on the internet) to prove the advantages of a water conditioner but most of the industry is sceptical on its working because there is no way that it can be verified by a simple test. A traditional ion exchange water softener replaces the hardness causing Ca and Mg ions with Na and "softens" the water whereas a water conditioner retains all the hardness causing ions, but supposedly conditions them. As the Ca and Mg are replaced in an ion exchange water softener, one can test the water hardness by a test kit but this is not possible for a water conditioner output.
Heart of an ion-exchange water softener is the valve and controller and they need to be ultra reliable. Rest of the things can be put together by someone having technical acumen to do so..
Firstly get the water tested and decide what is the requirement. Study a lot as there is plenty of stuff available online. Occasionally, this type of knowledge is passed on in bits and pieces and people don't know why they are doing it...it is what it is. Don't take for a face value.
While automatic home water softeners are available but they all need regular top up with salt for regeneration. It is not like fill it, forget it. Also, the salt needs to be specific for a water softer - not the rocks with impurities. I saw water softener salt on Amazon, available in 15kg packs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by katchkamalesh (Post 5238075)

5. Learn DIY. There is something called a salt bridge that happens after prolonged usage, you can sort that by yourself using some chemicals.

Salt bridge is not that bothersome. Though, it affects the water softener because the regeneration is not going to occur with brine, as expected and resin is not going to be recharged... significantly reducing the available capacity. It is just a layer that prevents salt to come in contact with the water and form brine. It can be broken by a sturdy stick. Use recommend softener salt and avoid humid environment (that may propagate caking -salt bridge).

There is no short cut. If you want a domestic softener, ion exchange is the only route. Magnetic filters are a scam.

I installed an unbranded system recommended by a friend who has a food processing factory. Unbranded systems avoid the cost of marketing. Also the maintenance is highly professional as they deal with industrial customers who are knowledgeable and insist on the essentials while avoiding the hype. The system can last a lifetime, no degrading in the resin happens. I added a sediment filter when my bore well showed particle infiltration.

The system provides water for his ingredients, as well as for his steam generation requirements. He tests for TDS every week. I do it monthly, when I regenerate the system, manually. There are imported systems with electronics, timers, pumps, brine tanks that can be set up for home automation, but I feel it's overkill. Do it yourself is quite do able. The softening saves on washing machine, geysers, taps maintenance costs, as well as drinking water costs. I use an RO only in the kitchen, producing bottled water quality water for cooking and drinking, by removing the small amount of sodium that is produced by the process. Very good value for large houses and families.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGK (Post 5238504)

They had come to our villa complex to show it. We basically measured the TDS/hardness of the water before this device and after. There was no noticeable change between both the TDS and the softness of the water. Their sales people were also not able to scientifically explain what the device actually does. Their brochure has no specifications of this device other than how many liters per hour it can process. However we do not know what this "processing" actually is. Seemed at best a filter of some sort to me and nothing more.

Hence Scam!

From my experience of having used a 500 LPH water softening unit called (IIRC) Softenizer from Ion Exchange (I) Ltd. (which has now introduced the ZeroB brand - it sold only drinking water filters under that brand earlier), during the period c.2000 to c.2012, I can empathize with your predicament. We had terribly hard water with high iron content (don't remember the numbers now), and would need to replace geyser elements once or twice a year on an average, apart from numerous other issues. Based on your experiences and queries, I could tell you the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by katchkamalesh (Post 5236690)

...how to maintain these systems. Advisors might convince you that if you keep filling salt/brine solution, the machine will function flawlessly. Don’t be fooled.
...
I enquired around and no one really had any first-hand experience with these systems.
...
...suggested that I install a sediment filter as well, in such a way that the outlet of the filter is the inlet for the softener.
...
The softener and sediment filter were delivered along with a testing kit and pressure gauge.

The technicians...advised me against installing the pressure gauge as it was prone to leakage.
...
For the first 6 months, I did not face any issues with the machines and was satisfied with them.
...
...water was dripping from the place where the pressure gauge had to be mounted.
...
...I was still under warranty and they agreed to replace the parts free of cost. The technician objected to it as more than a year passed since the installation. However, ZeroB asked them to replace it for free.

...
After everything was done to my satisfaction, he informed his boss and then on his orders asked me to sign a receipt which read replacement parts.
...
To conclude, I would not recommend anyone to buy these softeners unless you are absolutely sure of what you are getting into and how to maintain these systems.

- There were no freelance technicians who would take care of these water softening systems (I don't know if Uraban Company can provide you with such a service nowadays), and dependence on the company's technicians is almost 100%, so there is no point in antagonizing them.
- The resin needs replacement on an average every 3-4 years, and the process is not very difficult (if you can change your car's engine oil, you can change the resin), but disposal of the old spent resin is an issue, and sourcing good quality fresh resin is not easy (I believe Ion Exchange (I) Ltd. manufactures it themselves).
- As long as the TDS stays under 100-120 ppm, and / or there is sufficient foaminess in your soap, the unit is doing its job.
- Since I had a unit which needed to be regenerated manually with salt, I did it every 10-15 days on an average.
- The technician and his boss are probably trying to make a quick buck by placing a warranty replacement claim with the company, which, though unethical, is something that one has to swallow the bitter pill and accept, just because one needs their cooperation to keep one's system running.

When our water supply changed from bore well to river water (from the Sonia Vihar water treatment plant), the softening unit became redundant, and we sold it for scrap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samm (Post 5238505)

I strongly suggest you don't go for such a system. Look for a system which needs maintenance rarely, and which you can do on your own if needed.

I am not going to replace this system. At the moment, it is sitting idle, and will try to fix it with the help of a local technician.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJP (Post 5238581)

The system is still in use, have refreshed the resin once in 20+ years of operation. The water supply has improved significantly (later phases of Cauvery supply) and regeneration is only required once a month. I don't have an AMC, just maintaining it on my own and when there is an occasional leak, use the neighbourhood plumber to fix the problem.

The amount of life from the resin is much more than what even the sales advisors themselves quoted. 20 years seems a lot. Maybe you got lucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPMaurya (Post 5238585)

While automatic home water softeners are available but they all need regular top up with salt for regeneration. It is not like fill it, forget it. Also, the salt needs to be specific for a water softer - not the rocks with impurities. I saw water softener salt on Amazon, available in 15kg packs.

I was told that even rock salt would do the job.

On the contrary, purchasing branded salts seems to be an expensive affair. I had to regenerate it every week which translates to 5 times per month. It costs close to 5k for 160 kg salt (20 kg X 8). I need about 7kg per regen cycle. This translates to 1k per month just on salt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller (Post 5238721)

- The resin needs replacement on an average every 3-4 years, and the process is not very difficult (if you can change your car's engine oil, you can change the resin), but disposal of the old spent resin is an issue, and sourcing good quality fresh resin is not easy (I believe Ion Exchange (I) Ltd. manufactures it themselves).

True indeed. We are completely dependent on these guys for regular maintenance and it's sad that even the brands themselves are turning a blind eye towards this. Also, the timelines you quoted for resin replacement seem reasonable and align with the sales advisor. The funny thing here is that the sales advisors have been truthful than these technicians.

For water treatment solutions, I would suggest 3M water treatment. They have a varied range of products starting from de-scaling to end to end softeners.

You can reach out to the local 3M water treatment dealer and they would send a team to your house to test the water source (Borewell, Municipal water and tanker water etc.). Based on the test analysis, a product would be recommended. In my case, I was asked not to install any product as the water quality was way above acceptable levels and installation of a softener may not yield any major change in the output.

A scaling filter was recommended as an optional solution to remove local impurities arising out of pumping and piping etc.