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Old 17th March 2022, 02:08   #976
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Default Re: Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war

With Russian aviation industry struggling to maintain its aircraft’s due to sanctions, Putin had requested China to assist and it seems they chickened out worrying of getting sanctioned themselves for helping Russia

This obviously has not gone down well with Putin and seems to have given a stern warning to China by firing the Aviation Aide to prove their loyalty and commitment to Russia

Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war-7c5358efb585407eb952f7c4bddada3e.jpeg

Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war-89263d596b064c87980c6d23e6f618e1.jpeg

Will be interesting to see how Indian and Turkey respond to this..
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Old 17th March 2022, 03:24   #977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
NATO expansion is made out to more than it actually is. We have to remember that Russia also invaded Georgia back in 2008 and sent troops in to Belarus and Kazakhstan to crush local popular rebellions. This war is about Russia's inherent insecurity where post 1991, they lost what was according to them part of their empire though these have historically been independent territories with their own cultures, languages etc.
Mate, that is one way to look at things. Instead of seeing it as insecurity, one could also see it as a country trying to make itself secure with whatever means it has at it's disposal against an adversary (USA) who sees it (Russia) as a threat and would do whatever it takes to crush a potential threat (Russia). Is the US trying to make bases around Russia to do so? Check the maps in an earlier post (link). The quoted post in that link too has a relevant video about this.

While Russia/USSR might not be the threat to the US it once was, it is still amongst the two biggest threats to the US. That can't be ignored in the context of this conflict.

Most (all?) nations who can, try to protect themselves within their means. Some by might, some by playing two big adversaries against each other to extract some return for their allegiance. This is an age old practice, and one based on it's usability.

It is also within the nature of the bigger adversaries to try and have favourable people as decision makers in the smaller state of interest.

Once again, I am not trying to see this against an emotional or moral prism, but with the harsh reality that exists in the world with such matters.

[Edit: I hope as a fallout of this conflict the " ...historically been independent territories with their own cultures, languages etc" argument isn't used in India; ever. Different things can bind or separate regions]

Regarding Georgia and also Ukraine joining NATO:

I believe territorial disputes make it very difficult for a country to enter NATO.

Quote:
A new country has to be unanimously approved by Nato members and factors taken into account will include, among others, “unresolved external territorial disputes”.
Source: https://inews.co.uk/news/world/ukrai...lained-1480074
---
Quote:
As NATO Secretary General Willy Claes noted, .... that on-going territorial disputes could be an issue for whether a country was invited.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO
---

My limited understanding is that Russia worked on making the entry of Georgia to the NATO difficult by making border disputes at South Ossetia and Abkhazia. That seems to be the purpose of the 2008 war.

Ukraine too, this seems to be a part of the plan.

~~~~~~
The interesting case of Georgia being "European"

Quote:
Originally Posted by thanixravindran View Post
Regarding NATO, I don't know which other European country is left to join NATO apart from Georgia and Ukraine that has borders with Russia (Not counting Belarus with their current affinity).
Adding a point about this, mate:

Though Georgia is across even the Eastern and Asian part of Turkey, why would it even be considered amongst a list of European Nations? Technically it is a transcontinental country. Most of the country is in Asia; almost all. It has the Caucasus mountains in the North, and across the watershed line of those is a tiny part of it's territory (a lot of which too now falls under the disputed region of South Ossetia) which is technically Europe.

Interestingly, the region is often talked about as European, and it could well be to give it NATO and EU aspirations.

Why would anyone care? IMO:
a) Another place to have arms on Russian borders.
(Incidentally they too had a 'revolution' in 2003 - one which got them closer to the West . Revolutions are interesting)
b) Baku–Tbilisi–Ceyhan pipeline which is an important crude oil link between the land-locked oil rich Caspian Sea and the rest of the seas via the Mediterranean sea. The geographically tiny countries Georgia and Azerbaijan naturally become countries of interest.

Last edited by Poitive : 17th March 2022 at 03:53. Reason: Added map sentence, link, refinement
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Old 17th March 2022, 04:14   #978
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Default Re: Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war

By some accounts, it seems that Russia wants to end this war by giving Ukraine a way out. But Ukraine does not want to bite.

In fact the recent messages from the West seem to be escalatory in nature (Putin as war criminal, public announcements of sending anti aircraft missiles, etc) whereas Russia has been striking conciliatory notes. Ukraine despite being under severe attack seem to be biding what the Americans would want - Make Putin lose face even it leads to full destruction of their country. Sort of re-enforces the earlier publicised narrative that Zelensky is a puppet. My hopes on peace talks and end to this war in the near term are going down.

Also the real casualties of this war are not only the Ukrainians but also include the Russian and Belarusian citizens. They have overnight lost their jobs, battling high inflation, lack of goods and also are under the constant fear of being attacked in other countries. Example: one of my colleagues who is Belarusian by lineage but stays in Poland told me there were hate crime attacks against Belarusians in Poland and potentially other places in Europe.

For the human race, it has just kept on going downhill for the last three years. Started off with Covid, then came the news from Afghanistan on the humanitarian crisis and now this. It’s one of the most fragile times witnessed since the turn of the century.
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Old 17th March 2022, 09:30   #979
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Default Re: Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
More 'what about-isms'! You will really need more arguments than "America did it" to defend Russian actions here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
You are right, I did selectively call out Russia’s actions because this thread is about the RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE, not about American colonial exploits.
Hi, I have read a lot of interesting details from your posts. But to rephrase what others are saying on this, Yes this thread is about Russian invasion of Ukraine, but who forced Russia's hand? We can't blame the dog who bites and spare the guy who pelted a stone on it. It's not what abouts to justify some one. Russia is to be held accountable, so is the west in this particular conflict/war and humanitarian crisis.

Also, Russia might have had some intensions to make USSR, but you can't blame just an intention, but an action - so Russia is the aggressor now in this war but US did the provocation and supplying weapons to prolong the suffering(sympathizing with Ukrainian citizens, not Russia) . Hence it IS involved in this invasion by any reason!
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Old 17th March 2022, 09:30   #980
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Originally Posted by warrioraks View Post
In fact the recent messages from the West seem to be escalatory in nature (Putin as war criminal, public announcements of sending anti aircraft missiles, etc) whereas Russia has been striking conciliatory notes.
Could this attack reconfirm that? They are trying to get countries supporting Russia to break away from them?

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Old 17th March 2022, 09:59   #981
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Russia legalises piracy, allows patent thefts to counter West sanctions.

Desperate Russia likely to become the NEW China !

Quote:
As more and more companies pull out from Russia over its war on Ukraine, Kremlin is reportedly easing its copyright laws and allowing domestic companies to steal intellectual property from “unfriendly nations”.
Quote:
The possibility of lifting restrictions on the use of intellectual property contained in certain goods, the supply of which to Russia is limited, is being considered
Quote:
This will smooth out the impact on the market of breaks in supply chains, as well as the shortage of goods and services that arose due to new sanctions

Link

Last edited by volkman10 : 17th March 2022 at 10:01.
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Old 17th March 2022, 11:28   #982
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Originally Posted by saikarthik View Post
We can't blame the dog who bites and spare the guy who pelted a stone on it.
Especially, when the American government and its people show their human side and caring nature, when only Russia attacks some country. As Clare Daly said in the video posted by Bhpian Samurai, why the world never reacts in the same way when humanity is in crisis because of a US invasion or a US gun.

This is the situation with targeted Russian restaurants in the US, could you even imagine them putting up a Ukraine flag outside their door if this was in Russia? Did we see Iraqi flags or Afghanistan flags in restaurants in America or any other part of the world when America attacked these countries?

Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war-img_2103.jpg

Article: https://www.npr.org/2022/03/07/10848...f-war-hit-home
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Old 17th March 2022, 11:28   #983
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A Russian tank fires at a lone civilian walking through his devastated city on the opposite side of the street.

Russian soldiers open fire on civilians standing in bread lines murdering about 10 of them.

Russian missile strikes a theater housing more than 1000 civilians (including children) even after the occupants took the pain of spray painting 'Children' in Russian in large font right outside the theatre.

Some of the heroic actions of the Russian army under what it seems is the new Indian hero Putin (who according to quite a few members here is just a nice guy who is at his wits end on what to do about these Nazis at his countries doorstep).



If I had any sympathy before for Russians it's lost now. Putin will just turn Kyiv into another Grozny.

Idiots world over will still continue to say, 'Yeah but look at what the Americans have done through the years".
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Old 17th March 2022, 11:29   #984
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And you can invade an entire country because few terrorists take out couple of buildings in your country? Didn’t US invade Afghanistan for the same reasons Putin went into Ukraine? A Hurt ego is similar in a democracy as well an authoritarian regime.

People here are pointing out hypocrisy of the west. I do not think anyone wants bloodshed and war. I also understand that systems which uphold individual freedom should be a preferred choice, but that shouldn’t become a justification for wrongdoings.

Pointing out west’s hypocrisy can be and should be done by a staunch believer of western values. Democracy thrives on criticism. One doesn’t have to support a war to do that.

*I think NO TO WAR is a statement directed at west as much as at Russia.*


Quote:
Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
You can’t invade a country because of a verbal agreement made before most of your troops were even born. em.

Last edited by nandadevieast : 17th March 2022 at 11:52.
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Old 17th March 2022, 11:34   #985
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Default Re: Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war

Interesting how the cover of a "Respected" Magazine changes across different regions and wars.

Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war-fnzwjtcwuaecthd.jpeg
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Old 17th March 2022, 11:48   #986
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Interesting how the cover of a "Respected" Magazine changes across different regions and wars.
There was a interview in which Putin was saying why they had to get involved in Syria. Russia has a good amount of Muslim population and instability in Syria could lead to radicalisation of its youth which will spill over to neighboring countries and even Russia which is not too far away. Pull out the world map and see which countries have been destabilized due to invasion/war and which regions/countries neighboring it have been been affected and then find out if this is due to an involvement of America in any form and you will get your answer.
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Old 17th March 2022, 12:11   #987
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Originally Posted by JithinR View Post

Idiots world over will still continue to say, 'Yeah but look at what the Americans have done through the years".
No one is supporting violence against anyone or supporting Russia on this thread (well, may be very few), let it be very clear - what Russia is doing is not acceptable in any means. But to label people "Idiots", just because they are neutral and call out USA/West is outright bias for people who don't share your view. Members in this forum are more civilized than politicians of the world in my opinion, let's discuss different views with respect to other side as well at least on this forum.

Last edited by saikarthik : 17th March 2022 at 12:19.
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Old 17th March 2022, 13:30   #988
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Originally Posted by nandadevieast View Post
People here are pointing out hypocrisy of the west. I do not think anyone wants bloodshed and war. I also understand that systems which uphold individual freedom should be a preferred choice, but that shouldn’t become a justification for wrongdoings.
There is NO justification for wrongdoings, whoever you are. What I take exception at is having a vast majority of people in this thread wanting to condemn the West in what is a blatant Russian invasion of a sovereign, democratically elected country.

In a lot of ways, Putin's actions in Ukraine does mirror Bush's actions in Iraq where an out of touch leader made a decision that affected millions, enabled by advisors who were either too weak or just hawks, it was a crime and in hindsight, utterly foolish. The invasion of Afghanistan meanwhile was supported by Russia, China, EU and India because it was becoming a breeding ground for some very dangerous groups (which was destabilizing our own J & K as well), so everyone knew someone had to get in and get their hands dirty while America's ego and quest for revenge in the early 2000s came in handy for everyone. IMHO, the villian in Afghanistan was Pakistan, not the US! The Americans did try to fix the country while the Pakistanis provided shelter and keep breeding more extremists who were sent back into Afghanistan. When the Americans left, there is a reason why so many Afghans wanted to flee to the west. If you talk to Afghans, there is only one country they actually blame for their predicament, its their neighbour to the East.

Now that this is done and dusted, shall we get back to the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Or are those Russian planes which bombed those children in the theatre being piloted by American pilots (now, someone will reply to this with a story of how some American plane did the same, so this is justified)?
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Old 17th March 2022, 13:41   #989
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Originally Posted by saikarthik View Post
No one is supporting violence against anyone or supporting Russia on this thread (well, may be very few), let it be very clear - what Russia is doing is not acceptable in any means. But to label people "Idiots", just because they are neutral and call out USA/West is outright bias for people who don't share your view. Members in this forum are more civilized than politicians of the world in my opinion, let's discuss different views with respect to other side as well at least on this forum.
You can read my post again and understand why I talked about 'Idiots the world over' instead of 'Idiots on the forum'..it's simply because it was meant for people on social media with even less knowledge of situation than me.

For members on this forum (who tend to be educated upper middle class Indians and hence not really people I would call Idiots) I am afraid that atleast some of them are A-Ok with civilian casualties just because they see it as a snub to the western powers.

All I would like is for these people to see Putin with the same disdain that they have for people like Obama. Simply to understand that all of these guys regardless of their status as left/right wing don't care about the lives of citizens trying to live out their miserable lives.

In other news, Putin is has started talking about his conviction for a natural and necessary cleansing of Russian society that would strengthen his country. He is starting to sound too close to Hitler for my comfort.



I guess this will make him even more attractive to a section of Indian society that once drew inspiration from people like Hitler and Mussolini.
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Old 17th March 2022, 14:03   #990
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I don't think anybody in this thread has "supported" war or war crimes.

Analysing the events without prejudice is not equivalent to taking sides. It is because of this neutrality we got to learn so much in this thread, else it would just have been an echo chamber of mainstream/ social media around us.
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