[nandadevieast]

West has effectively cornered Putin now. US has waged a proxy war, just short of sending troops. What are the repercussions?

Putin can not go back home. As a loser he will be dead in his home country. West knows this so why are they doing it?

I think he will now not stop it even if Ukraine gives in to his demands regarding NATO membership etc…what will he do in Russia with all these sanctions? These can’t be his only achievement from the war.

The more you harm this guy, the more he will react. Very concerning developments and a huge chance of *unfortunate* escalation.

Putin seems to be at a point of no return. Surely all the (immature or planned) escalation came from the west by supplying arms to Ukraine, knowing fully well the entity they are dealing with.

Not good.

[turbo_delight]

Originally Posted by nandadevieast

West has effectively cornered Putin now. US has waged a proxy war, just short of sending troops. What are the repercussions?

Putin seems to be at a point of no return. Surely all the (immature or planned) escalation came from the west by supplying arms to Ukraine, knowing fully well the entity they are dealing with.

Not good.

Till now, US, UK, Nato are pushing or proxying this war. They are doing all sort of sanctions on Russia. They are basically testing the extent to which Russia can bear.

With Russia economy already in trouble, what happens if it tests the other side.
But What if Russia says : no more oil to Europe.
What if Russia "mis"fires a missile to Poland.
What if Russia tests the extent to which the west can go.

What happens if that's part-2.

What options Uncle Biden and Chacha Johnson will have ?
Fight. No, I don't think so. They don't have guts. They can only do politics.

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by darkfantasy

The amount of hypocrisy in the west is well known, but that doesn't mean Russia isn't wrong in this particular conflict.

Has anyone said Russia is right?

They have a right to join whatever alliance they want despite the big bully next door. The Russians have no right to dictate what Ukraine should or shouldn't do.

If there is a bully next door, One should first become strong enough to resist him before you think of provoking him. Ex: Israel

No one is forcibly inducted into NATO, unlike the eastern European countries which were inducted into the Soviet block with much violence. Read what happened to Hungary after WW2.

Someone had said "You're either with us, or against us". Can't remember who!

The United States does not stay long term where it isn't welcome. It has bases all over the world because countries feel secure with them. They ask for US bases - they pay for it. With countries like Russia and China on the prowl who can blame them.

If it isn't welcome, Why does it stay short term or long term? The presence of American Troops has led to unrest in several parts of the world especially the Middle East.

Countries look at their own self-interest. No country will spend its own blood and money to save someone else - if they don't serve their own strategic interests. All else is plain propaganda.

Right. Russia and China are Countries.

We live at what's essentially called pax Americana. With the rise of China, just wait and see how it adversely affects India. Diminishing Western power does not bode well for our own strategic interests with powerful hostile neighbors around.

Are we weak? Diminishing Western Power means We have the opportunity to rise and fill that power. In fact we should start flexing muscles with our weak neighbours and send a message to the powerful ones not to mess with us!

Just see how Russia treats its own soldiers to understand the difference between Russia and the USA. When there is a problem the Americans throw money at it. The Russians, though seem to throw their own countrymen's lives at it.

Never knew America threw money from Helicopters over Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Secret: Russia tried to throw money at Ukraine to not join NATO but they refused.

Some people argue that Ukraine should just surrender to Russians to avoid the loss of civilian lives. I suppose the same people will argue that we should just give Pakistan our Kashmir to avoid terrorist attacks and China our Arunachal to avoid border attacks. Pacification never works. If you don't stand up to your bully, you might never stand up at all.

Unlike Ukraine, We are a Nuclear Power and yet we face attacks. It's best for Ukraine to negotiate and stop the war. In future, It can become stronger and take back its territory just like Azerbaijan did in 2020.

America like all OTHER countries is a treacherous ally. It looks at its own benefit like all OTHER countries. It isn't better or worse. If it is a policeman it is a very selfish policeman. All countries are. That is the point.

If that's the point, We don't need the US to help us in our strategic interests.

We, India should continue to do what is best for us. We should look at our own strategic interests and not get swayed by propaganda by either side.

I agree.

If my post seems pro-American it is only because the other posts are overwhelmingly pro-Russian. The Russians seem to be wrong in this particular conflict and no amount of whataboutery is going to cover that up.

Even if your post is Pro-American, You have every right to voice your opinion just like others. That's called Freedom of Expression.

[Captain Slow]

I personally don't support any kind of war or violence against anybody!
But I don't understand something - the west did the same thing in the middle east by starting wars and toppling governments! where were all these people opposed to war then?

How many innocent people lost their lives there? Those counties are in total ruins! Is Sriya/Iraq/Libya in a better condition now because they have some democratic freedom?

Russia is obviously pissed because of NATO's expansion! Would the west be happy if the Ruskies/Chinese had a huge military presence in Cuba? Would they sit silent and say Cuba is a democratic country and let them do as they wish?

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by nandadevieast

Putin seems to be at a point of no return. Surely all the (immature or planned) escalation came from the west by supplying arms to Ukraine, knowing fully well the entity they are dealing with.

Not good.

Well one thing is abundantly getting clear that the global financial markets are going to witness a Black Swan event. When they say a 40 year high inflation even with the manipulated CPI data you know something is not correct and this is even before this war started. With the news of shortages and price increases because of the conflict you can just imagine how this inflation rise is going to get fuelled.

The corrupt Fed and their masters are ensuring that the rich get richer and poor get poorer with their 25 basis point increase which the stock market loved but will do nothing to contain inflation. Plus the war is helping the big CEO friends of the government make more money by supplying arms paid by tax payers instead of getting troops on the ground. Because loss of military personnel life is a delicate issue but loss of tax payers money isn’t even if it means loss of civilian lives in Ukraine.

We have to watch out for countries like Sri Lanka and Turkey who’s financial stress is increasing by the day and are getting so much closer to declaring bankruptcy.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

...Because loss of military personnel life is a delicate issue but loss of tax payers money isn’t even if it means loss of civilian lives in Ukraine.

It's possible that our leaders might send troops to support Russia in exchange for cheap oil and even arms. I always thought this would happen with the US supporting us in a proxy war against China, but I guess it doesn't matter for which side our soldiers die. We have a surplus population - "demographic dividend" can be put to good use. Our leaders will use the precedent already set by Indian leaders in the past, when they urged Indians to help the British.

Only problem is how to sell it to the public. May be China can be used to trigger the need (China attacks, and the propaganda machine concludes that our outdated arms contributed to our massive rout) to buy arms from Russia in exchange for this support. This way it will be the "honorable duty" of every able-bodied...

[NH08]

Originally Posted by darkfantasy

The amount of pro-Russian propaganda on these pages is just nauseating.

So, every opinion supporting USA/NATO/Europe or criticizing Russia is 'opinion' and contrary opinion is 'propaganda'.

Just unable to understand why so many members in this forum are engaged in, if it exists, 'pro-Russian propaganda'?

[Gansan]

What will America do if Russian troops and missiles are going to be stationed in Cuba? By the free will of the independent Cuba government and people? Welcome the move with an open heart? In what way is Russia's position different?

The Soviet Union, and it's successor Russia have been tried and tested friends of India on many crucial occasions over the years. India can't simply turn her back on Russia and condemn her. But Ukraine on the other hand had gone against India on many occasions.

The war in Ukrain is going to be a long drawn affair, despite the western media spiel. How long did the USA spend in Afghanistan? Twenty. And accomplished what? Nothing. They had to leave with empty rhetoric. They also left huge caches of arms for the returning Taliban, so quickly did they flee. And what happened to their three hundred thousand supporters and collaborators, who helped them to run the country? They were left to the dogs, to die. Many of them clung desperately to departing American military aircraft and fell to their death from the sky. We all saw it on TV. The west always puts up a sham.

Why were sanctions put on Venezuela? Because they were not democratic. Why is America sending emissaries to Venezuela now pressing them to ramp up oil production? It goes without saying the sanctions will be dropped if they comply. Have they suddenly become democratic? Emissaries are also sent to Iran with the same request. Has the Iran regime become democratic?

Russia is offering crude at a discount and India is going to accept. The deal will be in rupee-ruble, not dollars. So I don't expect any steep price increase at the pumps here. Saudi says they are ready to sell oil to China and accept Yuan. It is high time the hegemony of the US dollar in oil trade is broken. Then they can't play world policeman anymore.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

Are we weak? Diminishing Western Power means We have the opportunity to rise and fill that power. In fact we should start flexing muscles with our weak neighbours and send a message to the powerful ones not to mess with us!

Like to add further on this.

Without the US$ what is America?

The US, with under 5% world population is still the biggest market in the world for almost everything because of it strength of it currency..

They can run $ 1 Trillion trade deficit and still have their currency not get devalued because of the demand for it as a global reserve currency.

And before anyone points at their technological innovation capabilities for that too you need a lot of funding, which they do by printing free money. As, like innovations done by India, China, Russia is all done by its own citizens and companies run by them and not by foreign nationals who have moved to US over the years. Even the atomic bomb made by US had Jewish scientists who contributed.

So, you really feel all this talent will get attracted to the US if it was not the US$ and the benefits associated with it? And what is the US$ without it being the global reserve currency? Even the head of Fed said we may no longer be the only reserve currency (market share wise). For one to challenge it on its own is not possible and needs to be tackled at least by multiple strong economies together.

America has nothing special that no other country can match them including India expect for the US$.

P.s - Talking about growth and prosperity and not military might.

[pandabear]

Originally Posted by saikarthik

This "cleansing" term is classic dictator/mad man vocabulary.

He is starting to sound too close to Hitler for my comfort.

New age wars are not fought on the conventional sense but more of misinformation and less of information.

When it is basically an information war, the internet is full of propaganda from both sides... we tend to view it through those coloured lens based on our inherent bias (unfortunate truth no matter how bitter it is), social media just amplifiers that line of thought.

Just like it is in India, if you are Modi supporter your social media feed is full of pro modi propaganda, if you are anti Modi you are social media feed his full of hate Modi propaganda. All this is just done to amplifier our inherent bias

Back to the context, I feel Putin is just frustrated at a section of a society following the NATO line of thought.

All is fair in love and war! He just wants to win it like the opposing camps.

None of the three parties involved, Ukraine or NATO or Russia is perfect, as the saying goes it takes two hands to clap, in this case three.

Western countries overtly supporting Ukraine by weaponizing it are also going to be fair game in future, better they don't cry if they are attacked later. The best approach is what India has done, to be hands off and not take sides.

Unfortunate European countries is thave not learnt lessons from WW2 history.

And history is written by the person winning the war. Demonizing Hitler does not make Churchill a saint, it was just that he lost the war else it would be Churchill who would have been the dirty dictator. We don't learn history well in school you can Google Churchill war crimes, many of us are not even aware of the Bengal massacre, well that is a different subject altogether, let's reserve it for a different discussion and my apologies for the long post!

[nandadevieast]

Of course, Europe is getting Russian oil uninterrupted, despite all the mess. So India can surely have.

Ok so Russia invaded Ukraine, but do we want to stop it or let people die?

Supplying the other party with weapons is what seems to have made the war continue, not to speak of reactions to that in terms of escalations from Putin’s side. That would mean that they actually want the war to go on…rather than stop it. All the shouting, warnings, mis-information and frenzy helps ensure that war continues.

On a separate note, US is furious at the possibility of China supplying weapons to Russia when they themselves are supplying weapons to other party. They believe they have the moral high ground here which is fine (to each their own) but what about trying and stop it rather than escalating it dangerously?

Originally Posted by Gansan

Russia is offering crude at a discount and India is going to accept. The deal will be in rupee-ruble, not dollars. So I don't expect any steep price increase at the pumps here. Saudi says they are ready to sell oil to China and accept Yuan. It is high time the hegemony of the US dollar in oil trade is broken. Then they can't play world policeman anymore.

[Gansan]

^^ Russia has been excluded from SWIFT. Not to speak of Mastercard and Visa exiting Russia. Suddenly Russia can't make or receive payments for trade, ordinary Russians can't even withdraw money. Disruption of economy. This amounts to an act of war.

I suppose SWIFT is Belgian. Suppose a cornered and desperate Russia treats it as an act of war from Belgium, and to deliberately escalate the war sends a tactical nuke or two into Belgium. Do you believe the Americans have the will or stomach to retaliate in kind on behalf of Belgium, risking a nuclear missile launch towards mainland America? Especially Biden? Nobody knows. I personally think they will not, but will supply weapons to Belgium instead. Belgians will have to fend for themselves.

[navrddy]

I think, nobody here in the thread is saying Putin is correct. It is just opinion of everyone in team-bhp, that one hand alone does not make noise. It requires collective action of both hands which make noise. But question is who started all, why is NATO spreading to Eastern Europe, Why NATO is required in Present day, when USSR is no more. Western nations and US is all the time antagonizing Russia to the core by Stationing NATO troops and deployment of latest HW near to Russian borders. Russia being of different cultural and demographic background perceives expansion of NATO as threat to the existence of Russia itself.
What i am all surprised is all this war mongering by Western nations is going for long time and trying to put Russian leadership and Russia in bad light for long years.
It is also ridiculous statement by JOE BIDEN to stoop to such low levels as to call Russian leader as War Criminal. This is nothing but call for war without official declaration.
This joker president of Ukraine for sake of personal fame, is putting his country and his people close to point of breaking.
Unfortunately, in the fog of war it is not easy to say who bombed whom and how. Everything is perspective in the fog of war.

[Captain Slow]

Originally Posted by navrddy

Everything is perspective in the fog of war.

Originally Posted by NH08

So, every opinion supporting USA/NATO/Europe or criticizing Russia is 'opinion' and contrary opinion is 'propaganda'.

I don't know if anyone noticed this but looks like RT NEWS is now banned on youtube too, So much for media freedom and freedom of the press which the west supports and trumps about so much

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-60791734

They say RT is funded by the Russian Government but isn't DW news also funded by the Germans?

[Poitive]

Sharing a thought with fellow mates:

Somewhere, parts of this thread seems to be getting cyclic. Similar points are made, and similar counter-arguments given. I guess partly due to the thread being too long and difficult for new entrants into the discussion to read it all.

Maybe we should look beyond who is 'right' or 'wrong' and moral justifications, and focus more on what is in whose interest (country/country-grouping/individual), and let that form the basis of discussions, to figure out the possible 'Impact of the Russia-Ukraine war'.

We've been through the moral part and sort-of-'thumping down' of the 'other' view a few times. I guess we can move beyond that, and encourage the other fine minds who might be sitting quietly and not speaking due to how the thread is building up.
.