[Samurai]

Oh, let's not get into violating rule #13 please.

[poloman]

The twitter algorithm for free speech is too cute. You can get banned if you speak about veracity of elections or election process in US. But this does not apply to any other country. In India you have millions of posts questioning the integrity of EVMs and rigging them. So this is clear narrative control.

Same thing with Covid related posts. I don't think a person will stop taking vaccine after reading an anti vaccine post. But that perspective also need to be heard. If you simply censor them where is the balancing voice?

Again why so sensitive on gender related issues? A post like " Man can't get pregnant" will get you banned from twitter.
Surprised? but a true incident..!
Is this free speech..?
Why do these social media platforms think that people are dumb and need to be saved?

[Samurai]

Elon Musk has pictorially described what happened to classic liberals, and why he had to buy twitter to fix it...

[C300]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Elon Musk has pictorially described what happened to classic liberals, and why he had to buy twitter to fix it...

Attachment 2302270

LOL

Most of us are in the same boat. The left has transformed itself into a radical militia.

[volkman10]

Is Elon Musk replacing Twitter CEO Parag Agrawal?

Elon Musk has lined up a new chief executive for Twitter,

the Tesla CEO told Twitter's chairman Bret Taylor earlier this month that he does not have confidence in the San Francisco-based company's management. Parag Agrawal, who was named Twitter's chief executive in November, is expected to remain in his role until the sale of the company to Musk is completed.

Agrawal will receive about $42 million if he is terminated within 12 months of a change in control at the social media company,



Link

[Venkatesh]

Elon Musk says Twitter business and government accounts could have to pay a slight cost to use the service.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Venkatesh

Elon Musk says Twitter business and government accounts could have to pay a slight cost to use the service.

That makes sense. There is no reason why businesses/governments must have a free platform to promote their programs/products/services. They will pay after the initial grumbling.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Elon Musk has pictorially described what happened to classic liberals, and why he had to buy twitter to fix it...

Attachment 2302270

Could never understand how conservatism stands for market capitalism, and how liberalism could stand for authoritative communism?

Unfortunately that is how these two terms are being used economically.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Elon Musk has pictorially described what happened to classic liberals, and why he had to buy twitter to fix it...

Attachment 2302270

This is a very narrow view of the world. One cannot expect him to understand various issues, and this amplification of his views will become problematic in the future.

The truth of the matter is that humanity's evolution is a continuous evolution process. What was ridiculed as 'woke' and 'progressive' decades ago is the norm today. Two hundred years ago, slavery was perfectly legal in most regions. In India, women were burnt on funeral pyres, and 'untouchables' were beaten up for crossing shadows with others. Fifty years ago, no one thought twice about barring black and brown people from entering restaurants in the US. 'Woke' people changed those narratives, while many educated and 'rational' folk came up with a thousand reasons and excuses why the status quo was better. Rich white males - replace rich / white / male with privileged people - either resist these changes by mocking them, or fight as allies. There is no in between.

Originally Posted by alpha1

Could never understand how conservatism stands for market capitalism, and how liberalism could stand for authoritative communism?

This is the effect of American hegemony and thus a concept unique to countries subscribing to the Protestant work ethic. American conservatives believe in market forces prevailing over all else, with little to no governmental regulation. They also believe that it's every person for themselves, and no one should have to rely on the state for anything. In reality, this is not possible, because there are always going to be poor, uneducated, disabled, disadvantaged people, and the state needs to help them. American conservatives believe that this is a waste of their tax money, and anyone who proposes this is a 'commie pig'.

Humankind should strive to give everyone a basic level of comfort and a leg up in the world. Everyone should have access to free and universal education, healthcare, housing, and sustenance. European countries have gone some way in providing this to their inhabitants, on the back of high overall taxation and a history of colonial rape and plunder across the world.

[mayukh42]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

'Woke' people changed those narratives

'Liberal' people changed those narratives.

There is a difference. That cartoon tries to say the same thing - that 'Woke' has hijacked liberalism and is now deciding which is right and which is wrong - which by definition is anti-liberal.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

This is the effect of American hegemony..

Humankind should strive to give everyone a basic level of comfort and a leg up in the world. Everyone should have access to free and universal education, healthcare, housing, and sustenance.

+1. One 'ism' not a substitute of another. We need the best of both worlds.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Elon Musk has pictorially described what happened to classic liberals, and why he had to buy twitter to fix it...

Originally Posted by v1p3r

This is a very narrow view of the world. One cannot expect him to understand various issues, and this amplification of his views will become problematic in the future.

Couldn't agree more. What is missing from that cartoon is how far right the right has also moved. I think Musk is still smarting from the ridicule he got, which he rightly deserved, for shooting off his mouth on Twitter on several occasions. Case in point his "pedo guy" tweet about a British cave expert. Or his reckless tweet about taking Tesla private. This is nothing but an ego driven trip for him.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Humankind should strive to give everyone a basic level of comfort and a leg up in the world. Everyone should have access to free and universal education, healthcare, housing, and sustenance.

Also, "taxes are the price you pay for civilization". I just fail to understand how a largely Christian nation can think it is perfectly ok to be so selfish as well.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Elon Musk has pictorially described what happened to classic liberals, and why he had to buy twitter to fix it...

Elon Musk used an author's (Colin Wright) cartoon without attributing credit.
Colin Wright minted an NFT out of it.

All the web discussion on left vs right happens on the week when US Supreme court is drafting on overturning an abortion law from 50 years before.

Yeah right, its the Left that has turned wild, Right is right there.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Could never understand how conservatism stands for market capitalism, and how liberalism could stand for authoritative communism?

That is because two concepts are being discussed together. One is social (societal values or zeitgeist), the other is economics.

In the context of this thread,

Who are conservatives? Those who insist on evolutionary or organic changes. They want every change meet the test of time before it is fully accepted.

Who are liberals? Those who are open to revolutionary changes if they think the cause is worth it.

One can be socially liberal and economically conservative. This is what most Wall Street people are. People who are both socially and economically conservative are mostly boomers or older rich. People who are both socially and economically liberal are mostly millennials and progressives. Then there are socially conservatives and economically liberal people, they are spread all across the spectrum, but most fall in middle class category. Note the word mostly, there are always exceptions.

Since this thread is about social aspect, let's discuss that. Economic aspect as been discussed often enough in the economics thread, where I have rooted for ideas of Bernie Sanders. The social aspect that Musk talks about is entirely different.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

This is a very narrow view of the world. One cannot expect him to understand various issues, and this amplification of his views will become problematic in the future.

Musk is quite crude in how he comes across. That is a real problem. But he does indeed shed light on liberalism gone amok.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

The truth of the matter is that humanity's evolution is a continuous evolution process. What was ridiculed as 'woke' and 'progressive' decades ago is the norm today. Two hundred years ago, slavery was perfectly legal in most regions. In India, women were burnt on funeral pyres, and 'untouchables' were beaten up for crossing shadows with others. Fifty years ago, no one thought twice about barring black and brown people from entering restaurants in the US. 'Woke' people changed those narratives, while many educated and 'rational' folk came up with a thousand reasons and excuses why the status quo was better.

Nice try... You are taking away credit from real fighters who fought those battles and giving it to a very different set of people. That is very unfair.

Did you know woke movement has roots in Marxism? In the 80s, Marxism was dealt a triple blow, USSR imploded, China became capitalist, and trade unions lost membership and clout significantly. So the ideologues of the Left in the academia changed the focus from "working class struggle" to "identity class struggle", and relaunched leftism with a new platform. Multiple books written by the left in the late 80s explicitly mention this makeover. When Marxism got a makeover and joined social justice moment, they brought the propaganda concept into it, where facts don't matter. That is how liberalism is now being linked to authoritative communism. It is all about group identity, and not about individuals.

It is very difficult to discuss this topic in detail without breaking Rule#13, so I will stop here. There are plenty of YT videos and books from renowned authors like Douglas Murray and John McWhorter, who discuss the enormous damage caused by the woke movement. I suggest you read/watch before passing judgement.

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

Elon Musk used an author's (Colin Wright) cartoon without attributing credit. Colin Wright minted an NFT out of it.
.
.
Yeah right, its the Left that has turned wild, Right is right there.

I don't think anyone thought Elon Musk personally drew that pic. Who really gives image credit on social media... By tweeting that pic, it got the maximum exposure. Meanwhile someone replied to him with a more accurate image.

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

All the web discussion on left vs right happens on the week when US Supreme court is drafting on overturning an abortion law from 50 years before.

Horrible, I know. But this item is too political to be discussed here.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Did you know woke movement has roots in Marxism? In the 80s, Marxism was dealt a triple blow, USSR imploded, China became capitalist, and trade unions lost membership and clout significantly. So the ideologues of the Left in the academia changed the focus from "working class struggle" to "identity class struggle", and relaunched leftism with a new platform. Multiple books written by the left in the late 80s explicitly mention this makeover. When Marxism got a makeover and joined social justice moment, they brought the propaganda concept into it, where facts don't matter. That is how liberalism is now being linked to authoritative communism. It is all about group identity, and not about individuals.

It is very difficult to discuss this topic in detail without breaking Rule#13, so I will stop here. There are plenty of YT videos and books from renowned authors like Douglas Murray and John McWhorter, who discuss the enormous damage caused by the woke movement. I suggest you read/watch before passing judgement.

1. This is opening a new path that lands right into Jordan Peterson ( the authours you have quoted have all just latched on to his popularity).

2. It is wrong chronology, and I do not blame anyone who has gotten this info because there is just too much info about it out there in the web.

3. You may wanna look at some good philosophy encyclopedia or some textbooks to get the chronology right.

4. The identity based movements attributable to Post Modernist movements started around 1960s from Frankfurt school. The post USSR collapse thing etc happened post 1990s. Its a simple idea to mix these things up because it can kill two birds with one stone.

5. An "ism" used by Nike and CIA at the moment having root in Marxism is a red flag right there.

I am out of here.

You may wanna lock this thread as soon as possible

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

1. This is opening a new path that lands right into Jordan Peterson ( the authours you have quoted have all just latched on to his popularity).

Very unfair comparison. Both the authors I mentioned were famous and had written plenty of books before anyone had heard of Jordan Peterson, who is a very recent social media phenomena.

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

2. It is wrong chronology, and I do not blame anyone who has gotten this info because there is just too much info about it out there in the web.

3. You may wanna look at some good philosophy encyclopedia or some textbooks to get the chronology right.

4. The identity based movements attributable to Post Modernist movements started around 1960s from Frankfurt school. The post USSR collapse thing etc happened post 1990s. Its a simple idea to mix these things up because it can kill two birds with one stone.

I don't try to discuss a serious topic like this unless I have read at least one serious non-fiction book on the subject, with all the proper bibliography. Reading the full book gives a holistic understanding with proper context and references.

I was not addressing postmodernism, but the roots of current wokeism. Most of the theoretical foundation was built in the 80s.

The following is from the book Madness of Crowds by Murray. You can see clearly from two different highly cited books, how they refocused "class" into "identity".

Reference: Ernesto Laclau and Chantal Mouffe, ‘Socialist strategy: Where next?’, Marxism Today, January 1981.