[AZT]

Originally Posted by Holyghost

The HR had also verbally assured me that the salary and position they are offering is well above average inside their organization.
However after joining the company (almost 6 months now), I realize that the only thing they considered was my previous salary and my colleagues with similar exp/skills are well above my scale.

I have worked for multiple Big 4 (Audit and accounting big 4) and have been similarly misled by the HR before joining. I could not believe that even reputed org recruiters lie through their teeth, where surprisingly you have a mandatory course on Ethics and Integrity to be taken by all.

[Captain Slow]

I saw this Funny yet sensible post online - Credits to the original poster.

Removed the company names -

Employees of 80% IT software companies in India, thinks…

1: I am underpaid.

2: My seniors are overpaid.

3: I stretch my hours for the company

4: Everyone else in this world, has more salary than me.

5: All my friends knew nothing, but they get better salary.

6: Every other company pays better than my company.

7: My Company plays on fat dollars and I am paid in low rupees.

8: My Company cannot survive without me.

9: I should look for the change when salary is increased.

10: There are at least 100 companies whose boss will call me directly to offer a job.

11: The actual meaning of Appraisal is “Salary increment”, not responsibilities

12: My appraisal should be done every 3 months.

13: There should not be any delay in appraisal. My HR/Boss should call me at mid night and match my expectations.

14: 30% salary increment is the minimum market standards

15: My company office should be a 5 star hotel.

16: I am techie. Jeans and t shirts with flip flop is the ideal dress for office as per xyz standards.

17: Mobile should be allowed as I get important messages on insta, WA, FB.

18: There should be 3 breaks of an hour each, daily.

19: After covid 19, I should be allowed to work from home to save company’s money and so, company should provide me laptop, table, chair, pillow, bed and pay my power and internet bills.

20: According to xyz, in a survey, Five working days is old fashioned. “4 days week” is best to increase efficiency.

21: 1.5 years experience is equivalent to 10 years

22: I have already read autobiography of Steve Jobs.

23: The only place to work for people of my caliber, is the biggest MNC.

24: xyz is the the most innovative company in the world, because they pay more salary to their employees.

25: xyz is the best company because I can slip n slide to enter in my cubicle.

[adisan]

In the last 10 years, IT CEO pay shot up 835% while fresher salary grew 45% (MoneyControl report)

Source: https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...5-8602591.html

Excerpts:

Industry experts say IT fresher’s salaries have remained stagnant because of an oversupply of engineers. While estimates suggest that India produces 1.5 million engineering graduates every year, the IT sector’s demand is only a fraction of it; the industry hired a total of 360,000 freshers in FY22, according to news reports.


Industry figures, however, maintain that comparing growth in the CEO’s remuneration with junior-level employees is unfair as the top honchos’ jobs have gotten tougher over the years. They explain that the person occupying the corner office has had to deal with immense changes in the sector, a very competitive landscape and bigger expectations from the stock markets.
Pai disagrees.
“If anything, it is the CEOs in the IT industry who have not been able to negotiate better pricing from their customers. How can their pay days get better while junior employees suffer? The bottom-line is that there is no justification for not paying the people who do the actual coding in a tech company,” he said.

[VALLURIS]

Originally Posted by Holyghost

Doesn't organizations have a salary band to match the salaries of employees based on various criteria like skills/exp etc? Why do the orgs concentrate on my previous salary to compute my new salary?.

Yes companies have a salary scale for each profile. However it is not a bench mark, we need to consider lot of other things. Let me give an example

Let’s assume, We have a opening for a senior project manager in our office as our company won a 5 year contract to provide services for a MNC based out of London. I need someone with good PMO experience. Salary for 6 yrs experience guy let’s say 30 Lakhs. So our team is ready to spend 30-34 lakhs for one position.

Now I have finalised on 4 guys with the following details

1) 6 yrs experience from reputed college working currently with a MNC handling PM for international clients. His expectations 45 lakhs
2) 10 Yrs experience handling Project Management working with a Indian company handling public sector clients. His expectations 26 lakhs
3) 4 yrs experience working with a start up with good communication and project management skills handling clients across sectors and geographic locations. Expectation 30 lakhs
4) 5 years experience in handling Projects and worked previously with our client who offered new business to us. His expectation is 25 lakhs.

All above profiles have similar experience with small differences and they all have good management skills.

We went with option 4 as we felt prior experience with our client will be an advantage for us as he is used to clients office. This will help in better customer engagements and also helps to handle issue more effectively.

So we can’t go with only Salary band at all times.

[Artyom]

Folks i haven't gone through all the posts but can someone tell me what has really happened. I mean how come suddenly people have started getting hikes in the 40%+ range. Is is that suddenly the IT domain has got lot of business which was earlier on shore OR have they suddenly got more money out of no where to spend on talent.
Its good that people are getting good pay scales which in turn means a better standard of living but how come all this has happened all of a sudden.
Thanks in advance.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Artyom

Folks i haven't gone through all the posts but can someone tell me what has really happened. I mean how come suddenly people have started getting hikes in the 40%+ range.

It is explained here.

[dragonfire]

Originally Posted by Artyom

Folks i haven't gone through all the posts but can someone tell me what has really happened. I mean how come suddenly people have started getting hikes in the 40%+ range. Is is that suddenly the IT domain has got lot of business which was earlier on shore OR have they suddenly got more money out of no where to spend on talent.
Its good that people are getting good pay scales which in turn means a better standard of living but how come all this has happened all of a sudden.
Thanks in advance.

There has been a hike in demand for certain IT skills mainly spurred by increase in IT spending and a lot of VC funded startups. This created a demand-supply mismatch and companies ended up offering more to acquire and retain talent. Now things are slowing down because these companies are approaching the threshold, beyond which the additional spending would eat too much into their margins.

Since the covid pandemic made us work from home for the last couple of years, now job switching does not feel like a major event. It is as simple as sending back an old laptop and getting another one and moving to a new project. Many employees who were stuck with their employers utilized the new found freedom and started searching for better jobs.

Anyway this phase helped a lot of employees who were underpaid and hurt a lot of employers as they now have their margins trimmed. Some employees who managed to get astronomical figures in pay may feel the heat after all this dies down.

[Samurai]

All this talk about loyalty is making my head spin...

Your company is not really family, YOUR family is family. Your employer is not your king, he/she can't demand your unquestioned loyalty. Your company is not your country either, your country doesn't fire you if you are not wanted.

Yes, there are managers/bosses who act like kings and expect loyalty. But they simply have a misplaced sense of grandeur about their place in the world. We don't have to take them seriously.

So what does a company really expect from the employees? Being an employer for nearly two decades, I have a pretty good idea.

Employers expect reliability, they can't expect anything more or less. If a person is hired for a role, company expects the person to play that role in a professional manner. If the employees want to leave for any reason, the employer should also let them go gracefully after knowledge transfer (KT) is done. But employees should also display professionalism by not quitting at crucial times, and avoid hurting a project.

I have often wondered why these companies adopted 3 month notice period. Why does an employer want resigned employees hanging around the office after the KT is done, still taking salary? I also had to deal with 3 months notice when I left one of the companies mentioned in the thread title 24 years ago. When I thought about that as an employer, I finally understood the business reason.

From the top view, resource planning is the real reason behind this. Businesses hate disruption, it is never good for business. When an employee leaves, it takes nearly 6-9 months to truly hire, onboard and replace him/her in effectiveness & efficiency. But when people leave, it is always sudden. Employees never inform 6-9-12 months in advance that they have intentions to leave. Although, I did exactly that, in all my jobs before turning an entrepreneur. When TCS VP asked me to go abroad on some Y2K project, I told him I intend to quit in 6 months. That forced him to assign me to a different customer project which had a 6 month duration, I eventually stayed for 8 months before leaving. His highness also treated me like a traitor for those 8 months, but I was fine since I was working at client site.

One month notice is too little time for finding a suitable replacement, do KT and effectively replace without affecting a project. So they changed it to 3 months, to suit their purpose. Even that is not really enough, but extending that further would be truly ridiculous. I know lot of you will find this hard to believe. But there is no other mystery to this. It might sound like a punitive action to punish those who are quitting (there could be exceptions), but companies are not really into punishment/revenge business. It can't be policy.

Ok, some of you could try this. If you intend to leave your employer in the next 3-6-12 months, just let them know. Tell them this will help them in resource planning, they can match your assignment with the time you have with the company. Yes, you can also discuss what can change your mind, but that's besides the point. I told my first two employers that I have started looking for a job, and not expect me to be around in 3 months. I eventually left before finding a job both times once reaching a logical end of my assignments. So both bosses were nice to me when I left because I didn't disrupt the work in any way.

This way, no one will be surprised when you hand in your resignation. In fact, the VP I mentioned above was feeling a little awkward after 5 months of ignoring me. No outrage, no shock, just a weak "can you reconsider?", and then he quickly accepted my resignation. Usually this was the hard part in TCS then, making the regional top boss to accept the resignation. They would keep people dangling for weeks. In my case, he had nothing to say.

[vredesbyrd]

Originally Posted by Samurai

All this talk about loyalty is making my head spin...

This is absolutely true. While I've been very loyal (considering how high and mighty in the world this brand is), others have left the company mid-project (basically my entire team, even my manager), I stuck around and ensured that the product is delivered.

What did they get? One bagged the EU firm of our competitor, others landed up with 100-300% increments.

What did I get? A slap on the wrist for launch delay, a promotion without the salary being increased to the pay band of that level and someone else getting the limelight. The firm is also picking up fresher graduates at much higher packages.

Won't say that the entire firm this doing this but it is this specific business unit.

I'm going to have to look elsewhere soon and hope that someone refers me (because only IIT/IIM fellows get selected without referrals lulz)

And before someone says "bro, you got the tag of a top-level big4 in your profile and you work in a very challenging role!", I'll be practical because reputation won't pay my flat rent, neither it would let me buy things and nor it will get me a 4x4. It is money that's going to make my life easy and not just reputation.

Peace out
And to recruiters? Well, I won't even speak about your war crimes...

[poloman]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I have often wondered why these companies adopted 3 month notice period. Why does an employer want resigned employees hanging around the office after the KT is done, still taking salary?

One month notice is too little time for finding a suitable replacement, do KT and effectively replace without affecting a project. So they changed it to 3 months, to suit their purpose. Even that is not really enough, but extending that further would be truly ridiculous. I know lot of you will find this hard to believe. But there is no other mystery to this. It might sound like a punitive action to punish those who are quitting (there could be exceptions), but companies are not really into punishment/revenge business. It can't be policy.

Sorry to disagree. The sole purpose of 3 months notice period is to create a mind block and roadblock for a person trying to leave. This remains major -ve factor for recruiters who are looking for immediate joinees. So serves as a major deterrent for people to look out.

No employee is indispensable beyond a month. Even VPs, CEOs leave with months notice. So you have proper back up resources and proper planning, you can very well do KT and relieve the person in a month. Else you are making the guy too big for his role. 3 months this guy will be simply loitering enjoying the full salary. So companies have to look inwards, why people leave and if at all they leave, you are properly backed up and resourced to take up the KT.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by vredesbyrd

What did they get? One bagged the EU firm of our competitor, others landed up with 100-300% increments.

What did I get? A slap on the wrist for launch delay, a promotion without the salary being increased to the pay band of that level and someone else getting the limelight.

So you think your unreliable ex-colleagues were rewarded, and you as a reliable person was punished. By who, your employer? Your ex-colleagues were rewarded by someone else, not your company. If your company didn't appreciate your reliability, tell them you are unhappy and that you looking for a job change after the current assignment is done. Go somewhere where they will appreciate your reliability.

Originally Posted by vredesbyrd

The firm is also picking up fresher graduates at much higher packages.

Obviously, your company doesn't value experience, so why stay with them?

Originally Posted by poloman

Sorry to disagree. The sole purpose of 3 months notice period is to create a mind block and roadblock for a person trying to leave.

I know that is how it feels like to an employee. As I said I was giving the top view, where such things (revenge/punishments) are silly things to be even considered. Yes, there are such characters who end up as CEOs and try to act silly. Hint, those guys usually tweet...

Originally Posted by poloman

No employee is indispensable beyond a month. Even VPs, CEOs leave with months notice. So you have proper back up resources and proper planning, you can very well do KT and relieve the person in a month.

So you still don't understand what I am saying. A person may be replaced mid-project with a month long KT. However, that person doesn't reach the same effectiveness as the person he replaced, unless the previous person was incompetent. You can't cram the history of the project, every interaction, who said what when, all in one month. I can recall one incident that makes this point. This was a project that was live for 7-8 years, we were getting fat AMC every month. Once a PM from customer side sent an email saying that he is unhappy how a certain feature worked, and he can't think of a single reason why we implemented it that way. He wanted us to justify it and possibly change it at our cost if we can't justify it. It would have required 3-4 months of work. Our PM for that maintenance project had been there since the beginning. He took one look at the email, remembered something and searched something in his old emails. None of the rest knew what he was looking for, there was no specific keyword to search. But he was able produce an email from the same customer PM asking to implement that feature in that certain way with specific reasons. He simply forwarded that email back to the customer PM. That guy was flabbergasted to see the email from 6 years ago, where he himself provided the reasons. So he replied saying "I am floored..." and adding that there is no need to change anything. You can't do KT of such things. This stuff happens a lot and saves lot of money, time and effort. I have personally done it many times. This is one of the reasons why IT companies pay ridiculously high to smart guys to do mundane things. This is the knowledge industry, and every time a knowledgeable employee leaves, most of his/her knowledge about the project is lost for good. This is what really hurts the company at large.

Many managers even at senior level don't understand this and act in silly manner. Don't take your lessons from them.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by poloman

Sorry to disagree. The sole purpose of 3 months notice period is to create a mind block and roadblock for a person trying to leave. This remains major -ve factor for recruiters who are looking for immediate joinees.

+1 to this, from personal experience.

At none of the jobs I've switched, has any KT been done before the final week...if it happened at all! In fact, at the job I had with the longest period, no KT happened at all, even on the last day, despite my asking my manager repeatedly to assign someone at least temporarily so I could provide details of my projects to them and they could help the next employee. I took it on myself to create a KT doc and sent it to enough people in the org, so that the replacement (when they eventually did get on board) would have something to work with. No one would have questioned me even if I hadn't done that.

Funnily enough, despite that, I ended up on the phone with the new person at my previous company for at least one call a week, answering questions and helping out for more than a month after I joined my new job! I was happy to do that, the company had been good to me, and I had developed some good working relationships and friendships there. But what was the purpose of the multiple month notice period then, I wonder.

One month is more than enough. I do hope IT companies rationalize this and make it standard across the board, it will benefit both employers and employees.

[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by poloman

No employee is indispensable beyond a month. Even VPs, CEOs leave with months notice. So you have proper back up resources and proper planning, you can very well do KT and relieve the person in a month. Else you are making the guy too big for his role. 3 months this guy will be simply loitering enjoying the full salary. So companies have to look inwards, why people leave and if at all they leave, you are properly backed up and resourced to take up the KT.

Could not agree more. I have seen 3 months notice period only in India. I worked with TCS in Australia for a year as a permanent TCS Australian employee, and the notice period was in line with all the companies here - 4 weeks. Same TCS has 3 months notice period for employees in India. The 3 months notice period as you rightly said is to make the employee undesirable for other companies to poach. TCS even got the rule of not hiring back ex-employees.

One month is good enough time for giving KT, winding up your projects and handing over to your colleagues. To add to it letting your organisation know much before of your desire to not continue can backfire in reduced or delayed variable pay (bonus), below par appraisals or just getting side-lined for any promotions. Its like putting a target on your back. Not all companies are bad, but some especially have a bad reputation.

[dragonfire]

3 months notice period exists because we as employees are okay with it. It is not some draconian law. It's something that is in your contract letter. When we negotiate the terms of employment, we negotiate salary, designation, joining bonus, WFH etc. But has anybody tried to negotiate the notice period? Why? Because we know 3 months is the current norm and we are okay with it.

[Arun Varma]

Originally Posted by Samurai

So you think your unreliable ex-colleagues were rewarded, and you as a reliable person was punished. By who, your employer? Your ex-colleagues were rewarded by someone else, not your company. If your company didn't appreciate your reliability, tell them you are unhappy and that you looking for a job change after the current assignment is done. Go somewhere where they will appreciate your reliability.

Obviously, your company doesn't value experience, so why stay with them?

I know that is how it feels like to an employee. As I said I was giving the top view, where such things (revenge/punishments) are silly things to be even considered. Yes, there are such characters who end up as CEOs and try to act silly. Hint, those guys usually tweet...

Many managers even at senior level don't understand this and act in silly manner. Don't take your lessons from them.

I second that 100%! I was an employee who thought this way till I rose in the ranks. In addition to the knowledge transfer (which is primary), there is also a billing and reputation management standpoint. If a billable resource leaves abruptly, there is a potential for revenue leakage that hurts the financials. Some client contracts - which many employees are not privy to - mandate that staff serve a prescribed notice period. Many clients are not happy when staff associated with their account just up and quit. They fear for the business continuity mentioned above. Even if in reality there is nothing to fear, customer experience management is to be considered.

As far as VPs and CEOs leaving with a shorter notice is concerned, what we need to understand is those tasked with ideation (and strategy) - which very senior positions are usually tasked with - can be asked to leave faster. Whereas those tasked with execution, which is mostly the junior levels, will need to do a proper KT or at least mitigate the customer experience fallout.

I know all of this sounds cold and the reality is that it is. I have mentioned before that good governance and people practices are a must but even they are only to the extent that it serves the organizations' profitability and growth. Considering most companies are in it for profits and growth, it is natural for them to consider good governance and people practices.

Also, as mentioned, a company is NOT a family, it is merely a team with shared values working towards a common goal. This value exchange and the quality of this value exchange between employee and employer is what ensures the health and longevity of both in the long run.