[ringoism]

There was a "Depression thread" here in the forum that gained a lot of attention some time back and which I'd wanted to reply to but never quite got to. I'd see some potential overlap here in my thinking on both topics, and both are within the realm of my experience.

I'm about to turn 54; When I was in my early 40's probably, someone gifted me a copy of a book titled, "Lost in the Middle" about this very topic - I ignored it and didn't expect it would happen to me, but I've felt it at points thereafter. When I finally read the book (by an American author) I felt that a lot of it was culturally-conditioned and driven, and that a LOT of it came down to what I would consider misplaced social/personal priorities and expectations, SOME of which are unique to our particular times and places in the world, in society. The Author spoke of the loss of "keen athleticism of youth" or something like that as being a real downer as one entered middle-age - but then in my case, I was never athletic to begin with; The society I'd grown up in valued that highly, but I'd dealt with my lack of that ability in that realm long ago, it wasn't something to be lost, and I was okay with who I was. I could cite other examples. Professional goals that had never quite come to fruition (but I was never so career-focused anyway)... Whatever, it's not a one-size-fits-all type thing. But there are common threads somewhere, and some of those finally got to me.

I was making a good salary and had a solidly progressing career path twenty-plus years ago in the U.S., but for various reasons (it's a very long story), ended up relocating to India. A couple decades onwards came to realize that I'd missed out not only on the economic / professional progress I would almost certainly have experienced in my homeland (which my former colleagues / cousins / etc were currently enjoying / participating in), BUT as a resident of a smallish Himalayan hill-town, have pretty much passed up most of what India itself had to offer on those same lines these corresponding past couple decades of economic liberalization and progress. All this in the context of no longer being a carefree single guy who could afford to pretty much "wing it" and be blown by the wind to whichever part of the world he might fancy (or be able to afford) at whichever given time. Nay, I have become someone with a lot less income than earlier with a lot more short/longterm family responsibilities. The disposable income isn't really there for any kind of expensive hobbies, either.

Ah, well - so now what???

In my case, it was back to my "roots". Not community / social roots per se - but to what more "core" things could actually form the bedrock of my worldview, my way of perceiving and valuing and assessing:

What's life all about anyway? Who or what can I depend on? What (or who) gives true and lasting happiness? What (or how much) can I be content with? What would I most regret doing / not doing at the end of my life?

For me, the answers that ultimately had to emerge were transcendent, ancient, wise - the whole thing to some degrees is culturally conditioned, yes - because as modern men we're all supposed to remain physically robust, sexually astute, financially progressive, socially and professionally "upwardly mobile" pretty much indefinitely forever (or indeed, till we can retire rich and comfy) - at least as far as those selling us one thing or the other are concerned.

But others have walked this road even thousands of years ago, it was really no different in essence in any other time or place: What are we living for? Why is it worth getting up in the morning? Will reaching my goals make me happy? Are they even valid goals? What's beyond all this? You don't have to be engaged in all the frantic activity and grasping of the "rat race" to wonder about it all.

I can say that I am content with my (current and projected) little bit, our goals are modest, simple, flexible and I honestly have a lot of fun (by my definition at least) in life. I don't need to yacht around the world in my old age, don't need to own a Ferrari or Bentley, or a big house with servants tending unoccupied extra rooms and a swimming pool and big lawn with mowers buzzing around it every week. The vision just honestly doesn't appeal to me much. Maybe if I had a good friend who had all that it would be quite enough, lol!!!

But seriously. I can thoroughly enjoy a good, thought-provoking book (Tolstoy's "Resurrection" a really good one that I finally got around to recently), a little family outing to any number of lovely spots within a half-hours' walk or drive, a good/heartfelt conversation with a friend, a good laugh over something silly that my wife or I did, a superb home-cooked meal or my wife's stellar baking, the wonder of watching birds frolic in the tree branches out our window, studying an insect's form and movements, the sensation of my toes in fine sand or the green grass, a time of sharing ideas of worth and lasting value with my ever-curious, ever-absorbing kids...

I probably sound like a proper starry-eyed (useless) hippie, but I'm not really - I want to be and hopefully am productive in various ways. Will my kids grow up and hate me because they don't have silver spoons in their mouths? Anything's possible, but I'd hope they've learned by then that they, too, can be happy with or without wealth, without leaning on all the "stuff" of supposed success, which incidentally brings along a lot of stresses as well. Sometimes they talk about whomever has a Playstation 5, and just this evening were looking on Amazon at Rs60,000 Lego sets (WTH???)...

I mean, really, the world has gone absolutely mad. As long as I and they and my wife realize that it's all madness, and don't get swept up in it, I suppose we're okay. We might end up relatively well-off financially, or we might end up living largely off the land in a bamboo house on our very lovely plot in the Northeast - and I will not feel like any kind of failure if it comes to that. Well-made bamboo / mud houses are more comfy than the so-called "pakka" heat-traps we often go into debt for! I've seen what were claimed to be thousand year old mud homes in rural France - they'll stand the test of time. How do our standards get created in the first place? Why do we like or aspire to the things we do (even when they don't make any sense)? Why in the HELL are people up here in a cold Himalayan climate fitting dark tinted glass on the south-facing sides of their new, pakka homes (they REALLY need that passive solar here!)? I believe we're manipulated and pushed around a lot more than most of us realize. And not in the ways we usually think. Too many are enslaved and never realize it. People think they are simply pursuing "the good life", but think carefully about who is defining that "good" for us, and what their angle / motivation may be.


Maybe we ourselves are crazy by most measures, but we (meaning my wife and I and a few others we know) derive our own sense of value, meaning, pleasure from a particular Source, and it is old and tried and proven over the ages (even if by only a minority in many times/places!). These insights and truths were recorded long ago and serve as a guide for us, and have provided what we believe is a healthy (and realistic) perspective on things, so for example:

We have some kind of general purpose / meaning in life, because:
"We were created for good works, that we might walk in them", and "...there is nothing better for [the sons of men] than to rejoice, and do good as long as they live. And that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy good in all his labor, is the gift of God."

We have reasonable, pragmatic, modest goals and expectations because: "We brought nothing into the world, so neither can we carry anything out. But having food and covering, we will be content with that. But those who are determined to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful lusts, such as plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

With one disciple of old we can say that we: "have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. [We] can do all this through Him who gives [us] strength."

We've been taught the uselessness of anxiety and worry, by which no one "can add a single hour to his span of life", instead hanging on in hope and expectation of the provision of One who feeds even the sparrows, and clothes the grass of the field in splendour.

We live gratefully in the here and now with whatever we do have, because "...every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." Our source is stable and not going to disappear one fine day. Trustable, then.

Change - now that's worth a pause: though some thrive on it, is a tough one for many / most - it can be disorienting and demanding as well. Fail to keep up with tech or professional knowledge, and in too many cases you're gone, superceded, unless you're like Wally (in Dilbert) who had written his "ten million lines of spaghetti logic" back in the day, which would thereafter keep him perpetually employed at doing virtually nothing all day every day the rest of his "career" (most of us are not in that sort of situation!).

Midlife sometimes strikes us as undesirable because it's a time that we realize the world is rapidly changing / moving on and we're not sure we can keep up. Kids have to show us how to do simple stuff on our phones or whatever, lol...

I absolutely think it's good to try and keep up a skill set, progress in whatever ways are feasible, remain useful and relevant, because otherwise, of course, we become the exact opposite. But it's still valid to ask: Useful and relevant in what context? And with which underlying assumptions in place? Am I actually happy doing what I'm doing, or what I could be doing if I "progressed" in whichever ways?

I quoted above in part from the (biblical) book of Ecclesiastes, according to tradition written by King Solomon in a time of great prosperity, wealth, and peace in his land. He had, therefore, the time and the means to "experiment" (as he put it) at a great many things - to indulge himself in the best the world had to offer in his time, the claimed pleasures of opulence, the building projects, arboretums and fruit groves, musicians and gardens and dancing girls, comedy, the pursuit of higher knowledge and learning, etc, etc. He had his "hobbies" to be sure, and no limits on his ability to pursue them! And moreover indeed enjoyed widespread status and fame in his time besides. But the resounding refrain in the book is (as some may be familiar): "Meaningless, meaningless, all is vanity, a chasing after the wind". There's a definite and disturbing vibe of futility running through the whole thing, such that many readers have more or less dismissed it as the pessimistic depression of an old man.

But then, in middle age, what we seem to be worried about is what we will become as old men, isn't it?! The OP has alluded to that reality plenty. Thus I would regard what is expressed in these writings instead as the long-awaited enlightenment of a man who had everything and tried everything and finally came to a point where it all distilled down to a state of utter simplicity and clarity, the way forward quite plain. The only thing that is NOT a vain and futile "chasing after the wind" comes down to his connection with and regard for God. Let me be clear: He was fabulously rich at the beginning of his experiments, and he was fabulously rich at the end of them. But there was a definite and valuable learning process in-between, a shift in values and priorities, and I think it's fair to say that he emerged a different man than he'd gone into it.

The book, among others in the broader collection, are very much worth a read in my view. In my case I can say it has all been of very considerable help.

Lastly will say that it would be easy to dismiss my own case as a sort of "sour grapes" phenomenon - the guy made some bad choices, ran out of options, and is trying hard to convince himself that he is happy and content while possessing virtually nothing (materially) that the world around him more highly aspires to. "Didn't want all that anyway", right?


If it weren't for a certain degree of what I think is genuine self-awareness - and evidence that what I feel personally corresponds to so much of what I read in these old scriptures, which have rung true for countless others over the ages - I might believe that myself. I have certainly wondered...

But then (for us car guys): I had a 7-series BMW back then, and have had an old M&M Marshal here all this time, and I can honestly say that I've experienced a lot more pleasure and created a lot more unforgettable memories over the years in the latter, versus the former! If I had my life to live over again, which experience - which quality of life - would I choose to live on in? It's quite clear to me.

So at last, no real regrets here. It helps that I have such a great and like-minded wife, who puts no pressure at all on me to live up to what we both believe are ultimately false standards - she knows I work hard and do my best and try to conduct myself with integrity, and she values those things. I've still got a fair way to go in middle-age (apparently), and am not very sure about future "security" in old age, in terms that the world would define that. There are hopes and dreams and things we look forward to in the distant and not-too-distant future, meanwhile enjoy life for what it is in the here-and-now; I've got my anchor/crutch depending on your perspective, and as of now am quite good with it. That is not to say it's always been easy, I've had my sleepless nights but I keep coming back to the same things, same source of perspective and ultimately peace.

Regards,
Eric

[Old_Salt]

Forget the Harley

THE key to understanding Jamieson’s thoughts on midlife crisis is this: it’s not about some 50-year-old buying a Harley-Davidson and running off with the au pair or plumber. It’s about reaching a mature stage in life, and realising – probably subconsciously – that you haven’t been the person you could be: the “best you”

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opini...rapists-couch/

[deepak_misra]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

Being in the corporate world, most of the time I am lost in thoughts thinking

1. Needs and expenses until retirement
2. Life after retirement.
3. Needs and expenses after retirement
4. Growth in career and make the most money from now until retirement
5. Higher studies that elevate my profile and induce my fast growth (Probably MBA). Again is the money (10's of lakhs) worth the investment?
6. The medical field is getting so advanced, that it keeps increasing not only our longevity but also making us more fit in old age. This means our needs and activities do slow down drastically after retirement from private employment.
7. Alternative plans/ideas to move away from being employed to becoming an entrepreneur.
8. Do I have any business ideas? What is the business problem that I am going to address?

?

I see that 50% of your issues are related to finance. This is something easier addressable viz a viz the career related ones.
There are a couple of steps that will get you on the journey towards peace of mind on that dimension.

1) You need to be tracking your expenses month to month. You could use any app for this purpose but I find an excel sheet far better since you can customize it. YOu can also colour code categories into needs, wants and splurge. This will give you an exact idea of spend and categories
2) Keep at minimum 6 months of monthly expense in liquid such as breakable FD in bank. Dont speculate with this amount at all. It is meant for am emergency.
3) Insurance is already covered by previous posters in this thread
4) Have a goal based approach towards finance. Identify the top goals coming up and build up corpus for them in separate buckets. The biggest goal should be your Financial independence on. This is different from retirement since there is a finality of retirement whereas FI is you no longer need to work for money
5) Understand financial planning very well. The key concepts are goal based, asset classes and asset allocation and risk profile. YOu can do it yourself or preferably consult a registered financial advisor. Dont go with bank relationship managers for any advise. https://www.feeonlyindia.com/list-of-fee-only-planners has a list. Their fees may seem high but believe me - you will save money in the long run.

As far as career is concerned, there have already been some advises given. It is not possible to follow all of them so just see those that resonate with you. It might be difficult but see if you can discuss with people who are "smarter" than you.
Important is not to look for a dream job. If it comes your way it is very good and you are lucky. Similarly don't overthink on "following your passion". Just ensure that you are not working somewhere you hate. If you are working somewhere or something you hate you need to analyze very closely as to the reason. it is likely that the problem is with you in which case making changes is all the more risky

Actually a whole book can be written on the worries you have raised and I hope this thread gives you some direction.
There is a high risk of getting further confused on account of the diverse advises given - so proceed with care

[rrsteer]

Hi Eric, that was superbly written.

Originally Posted by ringoism

I mean, really, the world has gone absolutely mad. Well-made bamboo / mud houses are more comfy than the so-called "pakka" heat-traps we often go into debt for! I've seen what were claimed to be thousand year old mud homes in rural France - they'll stand the test of time. How do our standards get created in the first place? Why do we like or aspire to the things we do (even when they don't make any sense)? Why in the HELL are people up here in a cold Himalayan climate fitting dark tinted glass on the south-facing sides of their new, pakka homes (they REALLY need that passive solar here!)? I believe we're manipulated and pushed around a lot more than most of us realize. And not in the ways we usually think. Too many are enslaved and never realize it. People think they are simply pursuing "the good life", but think carefully about who is defining that "good" for us, and what their angle / motivation may be.

The above quoted text, reminded me of this TED video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21j_OCNLuYg

[TejasV]

One thing that I have seen, that has helped a couple of friends/classmates was getting into an executive learning program or a long drawn exec MBA from colleges like IIMs and ISB. These help you go up the ladder/switch tracks as well as give you a chance to become a student again and more importantly have a chance to make friends with similar backgrounds. These courses are rigorous, over 1.5-2 years over weekends and actually are very enriching personally too. The degree is just the icing on the cake.

I have been through one such and it gave me an opportunity to make friends and share without fear, something I believe we cant do much as most friendships are professional in nature these days and childhood buddies/people with shared interests are hard to find or just live far away for regular interactions.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

What is your take on this crisis? What did you do to successfully overcome this crisis (if you have already crossed)? How did you avoid this crisis - if you did? What you could have done better/earlier to avoid this crisis? What is your plan to avoid this crisis (if you have any)? What is your advice to people who are about to enter and people like me who are struck? Is there any formula to overcome this? What are the action items that you recommend to overcome this crisis?

It essentially boils down to keeping your mind occupied.
Take up Golf (I did at 40), it is the one sport that you completely obsess over
It looks so simple but is endlessly complicated.

Trying to hit a Golf ball straight will keep your mind occupied enough to not think about anything else.

[ajay0612]

Originally Posted by Samarth 619

....
Still, money is a big variable in my mid life crisis. Everything else seems pretty much great- there's not much to ask for.

I guess my thick desire is to be an entrepreneur and then come back to educational sector to inspire students. I dream of this everyday, I want it to happen today itself. But again, practically its a long term goal so not much of a pressure there. After my PhD, its the first thing on my mind.

It is fine to desire more money to enjoy a reasonable standard of living.

Salary is not the only mean to earn money. You can earn more by taking tuitions, writing books, articles, investing wisely, etc.

[manver786]

In my case, it was back to my "roots".


I would say you are truly blessed for having come back to your roots, which is otherwise impossible.


Will try to catch up once I am in Nahan/HP.

regards

[sweetvar26]

Lovely thread, thank you all for taking the time and posting. It's good to read the whole thing, lots of insight.

[Nimz]

Wonderful wisdom in this thread. Who would have thought one would find such pearls in a car forum. I am what you would consider doing well, earning enough in an industry sought after by many... but not me. I want to move to the world of automobiles (bikes mainly) - a passion from my school days and am not worried about designation or salary at this point. But no one gives my resume a second look. I tell HR folks that I can make up for my lack of domain experience through sheer passion but they look at me as if am crazy. I shall keep trying though as I lose nothing and have all to gain if it clicks.
If anyone from the 2 wheeler industry is reading this... Hi there!!

[hkborah]

It's lovely to read this thread, because it makes us feel we're not alone.
Midlife crisis for me happened at 36 when we came back to India to start a new business and had to shut it down. Felt like I had made career suicide. Our family is such that outsiders had a lot to comment. The same "well wishers" who were full on congratulatory remarks when I made it to IIM were now not missing any opportunity to put me down. I had lost my confidence, self esteem and turned suicidal.
Fortunately I have been blessed with lots of great friends since childhood. I had lost touch with a lot of them and connected with all of them. I realized that not a single one was truly happy. My bestie is a doctor who recommended a great psychologist to me. Little by little I came out of my depression. But what really got me out of depression was success. I focused on doing something positive every day, even if the benefits did not accrue to me. I redeveloped family assets to enhance family income even if it did not increase my income directly. Managed to do a great job. Soon after my Alma mater hired me to build the startup ecosystem in NE India. I was 39 then. I think I managed to drive major success even during lockdown and at 40 it dawned upon me like a Eureka moment.I discovered for the first time in my life what I wanted to do for a career. I loved the idea, just had to figure out how to make money out of it.
My choice of doing an MBA and getting into IIM was driven by the urge to get a good well paying job. Never thought about what I loved to do. The rat race I had to run never really excited me. Imagine Goals then, become Partner in consulting. Sounds so far back in the past now.
I now run a consulting and investment banking firm. Just launched an investment platform and am building assets to help startups in remote areas. I advice companies and I make close to my consulting pay. I realized that I will get the same respect in my professional circle irrespective of whether I come out of an Audi or an auto rickshaw. "As far as my "well wishers" are concerned they had written me off. I choose to travel light, have cut all ties with them emotionally. Doing some pretending in public doesn't hurt.
My summary from my mid life crisis
1. once you hit rock bottom, the only way to go is up
2. seek help when i trouble. there are still a lot of people who love you.
3. negative thoughts are to be avoided at all costs. fake it if you have to.
4. it isn't hard to make money nowadays. just focus on what makes you happy and find a way to make good money out of it.
5. anyone who isn't supportive of you, won't say sever ties, buy emotionally dissociate. Don't allow toxic people into your life
6. what you are going through - you are not alone. a lot of my friends from school teachers to small business owners to IAS officers have gone through challenges.
7. having good friends is important. If you have lost touch with old friends, today is a good day to call them and rekindle ties.

mid life crisis is about getting lost, finding your way and getting out.

Mods- Please do not mind any grammatical errors. Typed on the phone. Had to share immediately.

[PatienceWins]

I think it is key to find happiness in our own company; without any external dependency; as we get older. Finding pleasure in simple things of life (being in nature, leisure walks/ travels, books, movies, hobby etc) is important as the external environment changes and out of our control - losing parents, children becoming independent/ away from home, monotonous/ unexciting work, unforgiving body, health issues etc.

As others have pointed out, financial discipline is very important as we are looking into retirement and growing expenses whereas there is no post retirement pension benefits/ pension for private employees in India. Important to save, invest and have a steady source of income/ assets. Stay away from Debt. I have seen many cases where the parents spent all their savings for settling children (higher studies/ marriage/ house etc), assuming that they will take care of their retirement (stay with them/ support financially fully etc) and being disappointed/ struggling later when their assumptions/ wishes are not met.

As families are becoming macro and children moving away from parents, it is important to take care of health and having a good social circle.

We are living in a highly dynamic world and tomorrow is unpredictable (who thought about Covid a few years back). It is always helpful to prepare for the worst (be it loss of job, old age without anyone to look after etc). The attitude of Charlie Munger (All I Want To Know Is Where I'm Going To Die So I'll Never Go There) helps in all aspects of life - relationships, health, finance etc.

[Hatari]

Also, the key is to be outdoors/playing a sport as much as possible, upto that point, it would have been the most physically active part of our lives.

Being indoors all day is depressing for most. If not a sport, even swimming/running.

I had a T20 game last Sat, injured myself. Being stuck at home on a Sunday is quite irritating.

Originally Posted by Gildarts

I'm 35 and I have been stuck in a midlife crisis for a couple of years now. I'm in a PSU and earn considerably. But my career is going nowhere and the work is monotonous. With 2 kids at home (one of them is my wife BTW), I'm engaged full time. Absolutely no time for any kind of Hobbies. No F1, No EPL, No MotoGP, No Tennis, No Novels. Only thing keeping me going is the expectation of getting a respite after a few years when I can get my kid hooked to her mother to keep her off me. Sorry for the rant.
Anybody here gone through similar scenerio? How did you handle this?

Buy 2 nerf guns! even a 3rd for your wife! works wonders.

[EV NXT]

Originally Posted by ringoism

I'm about to turn 54;

….same source of perspective and ultimately peace.

Reminds me of Einstein’s note to the bell hop:

“A calm and modest life brings more happiness than the pursuit of success combined with constant restlessness.”

[maddy42]

Procrastination: Seen a close family member procrastrinate and leave all major decisions in life for later but is now suffering from depression as these are still unfullfilled.

"THERE IS NO TIME LIKE THE PRESENT"