[motorworks]

Request moderators to merge this topic with another similar thread if it exists.

Well, maybe the topic “The curious case of missing Surnames in South India” is alien to many of you! But in South india, especially in Tamilnadu, surnames literally do not exist, at least not with urban kids growing up in the 90’s and later. I have not seen this trend in a big way with Kerala, Karnataka and Andhra. I could be incorrect, and would be glad to stand corrected as well.

Why this trivial topic now, you may ask! Just last week, there was an article in the times of India which mentioned that U.A.E is not going to be giving visas to folks who do not have a surname in their passports! Really, why? I just couldn’t comprehend the reasons behind this move!

Now, some context to my situation, rather my 10 year old Son’s situation. I know we don’t actually mention our names in the forum, but this topic needs me to do that, so I’m going to go ahead. My name is “Sujith”, yes, just “Sujith”. No sur name, no middle name. When i was a kid, all my school records had it as “ S. Sujith”, with the initial “S” standing for my father’s rather unique name “Sabanayagam”.

No problem with my initial and my name until class 7. I moved to an anglo-Indian boarding school for Class 7, and thats when I realised that the school records had no initials, they always used the full name! So my name suddenly became “Sabanayagam Sujith”! Can you imagine the anglo indian teachers calling out my father’s name! Most people just called me “Subramaniam Sujith”! Obviously my father’s name was so synonymous with “Subramaniam”!

Anyway, I was fortunate that the school teachers just stuck to using my name for the rest of the 4 years and spared the ridiculous pronunciation attempts of my father’s name.

By the time i passed out of class 10, i somehow realised that my father’s name is now sort of my surname. My class 10 mark sheets had the full name now, so that was it. From thereon, all my records started to have the full name, except my pan Card which still had “S.Sujith” and i had to recently change it as well.

Finally by the time Aadhar etc came in, i managed to keep all my records as one name “Sujith Sabanayagam”, rather unique due to my father’s name being very rare! I can get my name as my email id anywhere! Quite sure no one has this combination!

To put something in perspective, i don't have anything against having my father’s name as my surname. At times it does help me to sort of establish my identity, since my father’s name is a very strong tamil name, and I’m sort of happy to have some connection in my name to my roots.

Whats the big deal in a name, you may ask. Well, When I mention my name to anyone, the first question I get asked is “ Which part of Kerala are you from?”! Well, my native place, Coimbatore is about 40-50kms from Kerala and I don’t know if that makes me a Keralite! Me being named “Sujith” had only one reason. My elder brother got named “ Ranjith” and obviously my name had to rhyme with his! A lot folks born in the 80’s and early 90’s would be able to relate to the rhyming names for siblings! Did our parents do this so that they can always call either of us by any of the names and still get away with it cause they rhyme? Well, we will never know!

Anyway, i’m now 40 and the whole name thing is all sorted. All my records have “Sujith Sabanayagam” and at times I get called as “Sabanayagam” so I’m used to it by now. The only issue is to get folks to pronounce it correctly, sometimes i just give up, especially when someone is calling me “Mr.Subramaniam”!

Coming to the issue at hand, my son was born in 2012, and my wife and I wanted to keep his name very simple. So we named him “Dhruv”, just the single name. All his records have just this given name. His passport has the surname to be blank. We did travel to Dubai 2-3 years ago, no issues then. When i heard about this new ruling of having surname field to be mandatory, I checked with a few travel agents and they did confirm that its a new ruling and it may affect visas of few other countries in the future too.

What can i do now? I don’t want to add my name as his surname. In some countries he may get called by his surname, which is nothing but my name! “Dhruv Sujith” sounds like two first names, no two ways about it! And he certainly wouldn’t respond to “Mr.Sujith”!
It sort of creates an issue with his own identity. And I cannot now find a new surname just to satisfy these new rules as well! That would be weird after 10 years!

There is no immediate travel plan at hand, but I might as well do something about this right now rather than leaving it for too late.

My wife and I always had to offer some explanations with our names, like I’m not from kerala, my name is not “Sabanayagam” etc. My wife’s name too has its complications due to the way it’s spelt, so we always got mistaken for who we were not. Its no big deal, but when you end up offering explanations all the time, may be it is! So we wanted our son to have a name that need not be explained. A name. Just a name!

And now, he has to go through all that I went through! I’m unable to understand why!

Apologies if this seems like a trivial topic or if I have offended anyone’s perception on this topic.

Would be great to hear from people who have gone through something like this!

[Indian2003]

Cant you just go down to some office and change your name? A friend of mine Roger Jayesingha changed his name to Roger Endlesspain and that today is his legal name.

[Sran]

I can tell you about Unified Bihar and Purvanchal(U.P) and lack of surnames or unique surnames. During 80s and 90s, a lot of caste war was going on. Maoist, naxalites went through a bone chilling killing spree throughout the area. "Bhura Baal saaf karo" (Clean the 4 upper caste) was a call in 90s by the biggest leader of state. They would summarily execute whole family or sometimes whole village. Many upper caste people stopped using surnames or started using vague surnames like Kumar or Ranjan. Many of my friends do not have surnames and it is certainly a pain in paperwork like passport or DL. I have a vague surname and so does my 10 cousin brothers. Till 9th standard my first name was different in school but, so many murder happened in my village and surrounding areas that I even had to change my First name in 10th standard at random. I now have a First name that has nothing to do with my state.

Caste war was also ongoing in T.N and unified A.P at that time and maybe it was the reason you didn't get a surname.

[Latheesh]

Oh Sujith, that is a common millennial name in Kerala. It is like someone outside TN having name like Murugan.

It is better to add surname (not just initial), otherwise it creates lot of problems when filling some visa, tax, or any other forms online in some countries (where those fields are mandatory).

I have a typical Kerala first name, but some people calls me Latheef and wish me on Ramzan/Eid. My last name sounds like an Eastern European name and it confuses some people.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by motorworks

“The curious case of missing Surnames in South India” is alien to many of you! But in South india, especially in Tamilnadu, surnames literally do not exist, at least not with urban kids growing up in the 90’s and later.

Would be great to hear from people who have gone through something like this!

Well, I am from Kerala but have roots in TN as well. I am very much familiar with this issue since I too just had the first name in my school records and passport, right through to my first job. Had to explain to people once in a while but it was never a hassle. However, I do remember one of my teachers who had previously worked in the middle east telling me that I will have a problem if I ever wanted to go to the gulf.

The first time I really faced a problem was when applying for MS in a US university. The last name field was mandatory in the online application portal and I had to figure out my surname. Now both of my parents don't have "proper" surnames (will come to it later). However, going further back, the grandparents used to have caste as part of their names. So I chose to go with that.

Originally Posted by Sran

Caste war was also ongoing in T.N and unified A.P at that time and maybe it was the reason you didn't get a surname.

This probably defines why my parents didn't have caste in their names.


The surname by definition is a hereditary name common to all members of a family. In many cases, it indicates the bloodline and one doesn't marry a person with the same surname. But like you said, at least in many parts of south India, there is no standard when it comes to the last/surname. And this is what I meant by not having a proper surname. A lot of people either use their caste or father's name as their last name. In some cases, the women get their mother's name while the men get their father's. Sometimes, even brothers are given different last names. I believe it was Narayan Murthy who said that he and his brother have different last names. In KL, some, especially artists, add their native place to their names. All this defeats the whole purpose of a surname, which the west uses to identify a family with. But then again, it is an alien phenomenon to our culture which unfortunately we have to deal with.

Coming to your son's case, my suggestion is to add the last name before his 10th standard to avoid headaches later in life. Using your name is the easiest option but that will not solve the problem for future generations. You may go back to your family tree and see if there was some family name that got lost and use that. Or you may come up with somerhing unique on your own. Just make sure to choose something that is easy and for which your son doensn't have to give much explanation.

[ontheroad]

As a person currently living in UK, I should say that, without surname no online application can be done here. I also have no surname but had two fore name in passport. Ex Prasanth Gangadharan. Here I enter "Gangadharan" as surname when required.

[download2live]

Originally Posted by Sran

I can tell you about Unified Bihar and Purvanchal(U.P) and lack of surnames or unique surnames.

I am finally close to solving the riddle of Bihar ways of naming kids.

I have seen so many friends from Bihar having actually two proper names instead of a name and title.
Example: Alok Ranjan, Aditya Anubhav, Udit Narayan and so on.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by motorworks

What can i do now? I don’t want to add my name as his surname.

The answer to some problems are always the obvious ones even if we don't like it. The world runs on a model with surnames so better we stick to it. In addition to UAE, in the US it's a pain to not have a surname with all documentation carrying a placeholder LNU (last name unknown) for such individuals.

I see 4 options
1. Keep your name as his last name
2. Give your current surname (/your father's name) to him
3. Opt for some common (caste/location/etc based) surname
4. Give your wife's surname (if she has one from her family side)

Btw option 2 worked for me, ironically with my father's name that is a common surname in the west & north India.

[Viju]

Hi Sujith

Good to see a thread on this topic. I fully empathise with you. Let me explain! I was born in 1981, so I know exactly what you mean with rhyming names. My elder sister was named Vindu after my father's younger brother Govind (who had tragically passed away while in the military). Of course, I had to be Viju. And yes, I am from Kerala!

PS: It's hard to believe you are not from Kerala --> my brother-in-law is Sujith, my school senior was Sujith, I had 3 batchmates in college named Sujith!

As my parents were from different religions, they probably wanted to keep a 'neutral' name from me. So they named me Viju Raj, and added my father's first name as my initial. So all through my school name, my name was Viju Raj N.

All was fine, until I received my driver's license, in which my name was written as Vijuraj N. I went to the RTO and question why, and they showed me my SSLC certificate in which my name was indeed written as Vijuraj N., and not Viju Raj N.! Probably, some school staff was dictating the names to another member who wrote it down as he pleased and passed it on to the SSLC board.

Well, I was fine with that after a few days. Then, the next big change was when I applied for my passport, in which of course, you are expected to write your full name! So, my name became:
First name: Vijuraj
Surname (expansion of N, which was my father's name): Narayana Shenoy

Then, I moved to Japan where everyone has a surname, but no one has a middle name! So the Japs get all confused if they have to call me Vijuraj-san, Narayana-san or Shenoy-san, and this continues until today. In office, I have just told everyone Viju-san is fine. When I go to a government office or talk to a car dealer or a customer, I tell them my name is Shenoy. So they call me Shenoy-san. As long as we are comfortable with our names, we should be fine.

I agree with all the suggestions that ninjatalli has provided. I think the order of priority should be 1, 2 or 4, and 3. Many new gen parents give the mother's surname, or even the mother's maiden name as the surname or middle name for their kids, and I think there is nothing wrong with that either. Why should we use only the father's name for the kids!

[shankar.balan]

In the old days, in the naming convention in the erstwhile ‘Travancore State’ which comprised vast swathes of today’s Kerala and South western TN, and in the Erstwhile Madras Presidency, they used mention the village name and the actual given name, the father’s name and the ‘caste’. At least that used to be the case. However, once English education and the Western ways had taken root strongly in the mid-late 19th century, many families adopted the more ‘convenient’ or if you will, ‘conformist’, naming convention of first name and surname and perhaps there was an initial or two to denote village and all.
Largely I believe (basis what my Granddad told me sometime in the 1970’s and conversations with my late Mum with whom I used to regularly discuss these things, because of her excellent knowledge of chronological, anthropological and socio-economic history), this was to make the whole school certificate thing a little easier, so that the then career path to college and there onwards to a job and so on, would be made a little smoother. Those days a ‘Convent Education’ and ‘Boarding/ Public School Education’ and ‘University’ were highly prized and sought after. We know in the Deep South and TN and Kerala and all, that the names in general are pretty long-winded. Many forward thinking and economically stronger families also sent some of their children outside of India to study. Notably England, Germany and the USA. Hence the Western naming convention was simply used as being more convenient. So in many cases, the parents just shortened the names in order to conform with the then rapidly changing circumstances and in order to cement their opportunities with an eye to the future that they were able to foresee, which basically meant Government Service, Professional Service or Sterling Company etc. Also, there was a social reason. Many forward thinking people also, no longer wanted to be associated or identified basis the ‘caste’ they were born into. They much preferred the anonymity of just the given name and fathers name. This is especially true of the 1950’s onwards, when a sort of ‘caste based revolution’ swept the Southern States and where in particular a certain bias was spawned.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by motorworks

What can i do now? I don’t want to add my name as his surname. In some countries he may get called by his surname, which is nothing but my name! “Dhruv Sujith” sounds like two first names, no two ways about it! And he certainly wouldn’t respond to “Mr.Sujith”!
It sort of creates an issue with his own identity. And I cannot now find a new surname just to satisfy these new rules as well! That would be weird after 10 years!

There is no immediate travel plan at hand, but I might as well do something about this right now rather than leaving it for too late.

My wife and I always had to offer some explanations with our names, like I’m not from kerala, my name is not “Sabanayagam” etc. My wife’s name too has its complications due to the way it’s spelt, so we always got mistaken for who we were not. Its no big deal, but when you end up offering explanations all the time, may be it is! So we wanted our son to have a name that need not be explained. A name. Just a name!

And now, he has to go through all that I went through! I’m unable to understand why!

Would be great to hear from people who have gone through something like this!

This is quite a common predicament for NRI/OCIs from TN. Over a period of time people have learnt from the past and have moved on to using surnames for their kids instead of initials. For now, we usually pick the options from what Ninjatalli has provided.

I understand your concern of having a typical first name (your or your father’s first name) as your son’s last name. If they are going to live abroad then, it doesn’t matter as much. That’s the least of our problem. However if you insist on not having a surname and wanting them to travel, study, work, migrate abroad then, you are going to make their life miserable. That’s the reality.

My parents bestowed me with four words and 26 characters in my name in the typical “initial plus first name” TN format. The ubiquitous “Kumar” of the 80s/90s was also thrown in the mix. I started using the first and last name format after I applied for passport/when I started work. I moved on to using just two words after I migrated. For official purposes I have to explain why the second word in my first name is not my middle name. Some IT systems won’t accept it and things like identify verification is a two step process for me since I have to ask them rerun the scans by trying different combinations.

So based on my experience, I’ll request you to make it easy for your son by trying to align with the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

The answer to some problems are always the obvious ones even if we don't like it. The world runs on a model with surnames so better we stick to it. In addition to UAE, in the US it's a pain to not have a surname with all documentation carrying a placeholder LNU (last name unknown) for such individuals.

I see 4 options
1. Keep your name as his last name
2. Give your current surname (/your father's name) to him
3. Opt for some common (caste/location/etc based) surname
4. Give your wife's surname (if she has one from her family side)

Btw option 2 worked for me, ironically with my father's name that is a common surname in the west & north India.

+1.

[Shreyans_Jain]

This is not a uniquely South Indian thing. Even here up north, a lot of our surnames are simply the names of the caste or the native village or perhaps just the name of the ancestral occupation.

I didn’t even know the words ‘surname’ or ‘last name’ existed, up until I was 8-9 years old and after we moved to Gujarat. Here in Haryana, it was always called name and caste, even in school.

It is also a fact that a lot of people used the word Kumar or Kumari as surname, simply as a clean break from the traditional surname system.

[condor]

And why is it curious ?

The title suggests that everyone must have a surname, and people who dont, are well, lacking in something ?

Not to sound harsh, but cultures and customs dont have to be the same everywhere.

Even with people who have surnames have long since cut down on the nomenclature. Even a few decades back, a person's name would include his name, his father's name and surname. In case of married women, the husband's name was used. Today how many follow this ? One's father's name was then shortened to an initial and then even dropped altogether.

Go back even further, and one's place was also included in the name at the start. This way, just the name was enough to identify and even reach the person.

But then, with the extent of migration of people today from their original place, the significance of having the place of origin in one's name has reduced.

Even with south Indians, if you expand the initials, you can often find the place of origin and father's name there.


I am not excluding people of other states, but I find that many Maharashtrians still have their father's name in their name. And I appreciate and respect them for this, and all others who still follow this.

[jkrishnakj]

Aha! Hailing from TN, Ive been there and had to work my way to being addressed as Mr. Xxx in my fathers name. Over the decades, I forgot what my initials were and it’s always my fathers name as my surname. My son is slowly getting used to being addressed as Mr. My name in hotels, airlines, visas etc and he’s learning to live with it.

What’s in a name, after all. Oh, quite a bit. I hate to be addressed with a salutation and my fathers name. But it’s sunk in.

[Sankar]

Icelandic surnames are cool, because even if some one calls you by your surname it still means "you" and not your father. They even got the genders correct in the sur-naming convention. Technically the same system can be adapted to use mother's name.