[ajitkommini]

Originally Posted by PhrozenFire

My sincerest apologies if this has been covered on this thread before, but there are 46 pages to go through!
Anyway, there was a point of contention recently between my friends and me, over which is the correct usage:
To whomsoever it may concern
To whoever it may concern
To whomever it may concern

The common usage is the first one, which also sounds right, maybe because of it's universal acceptance. But after a whole lot of checking up, it turns out that 'whomever' is the correct form of usage. Which doesn't quite sound so right! Maybe because I, personally, have never come across this form of addressal.

Any ideas on this guys?

I've also seen "To whom it may concern"

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by PhrozenFire

To whomsoever it may concern
To whoever it may concern
To whomever it may concern

Of those three I would automatically choose whomsoever. Whomsoever is correct, albeit a little old fashioned and formal.

It is something we tend to use quite a lot in India, our legal systems states certain letters to be made out to whomsoever it may concern.

However I find whom to work just as well and sound more contemporary.

To whom it may concern is definitely something I would use.

Originally Posted by PhrozenFire

But after a whole lot of checking up, it turns out that 'whomever' is the correct form of usage.

Could you give us some references that pointed you to that conclusion? To whomever it may concern sounds pretty incorrect to me, but I am willing to be wrong.

[aah78]

Originally Posted by PhrozenFire

To whomsoever it may concern

I've seen this used in Indian English. Maybe British English too?

Originally Posted by ajitkommini

I've also seen "To whom it may concern"

American's seem to prefer this term.

"To whomever it may concern" is grammatically correct but it isn't a commonly used term.

I haven't seen "To whoever it may concern" used in formal writing.

[Cyrus43]

When you type on MS Word, If you type "to Whom.." It automatically displays a tag saying "To Whom It may Concern" I never use that. As far as i have been taught, It has always been "To Whomsoever It May Concern"

[PhrozenFire]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Could you give us some references that pointed you to that conclusion? To whomever it may concern sounds pretty incorrect to me, but I am willing to be wrong.

This debate first started off when I was preparing for CAT in a coaching class. A debate among us students led to us going to the faculty, and a debate among them ensued! Finally the head faculty for English was called in, and as he too wasn't sure, he contacted the editor of TOI Pune edition. He confirmed that 'whomever' is the correct usage, although 'whomsoever' is near universally accepted and used in India. Its, correctness, he said, was debatable.

[sultanofswing]

Well well!

This thread has captivated me more than any other ICE thread.

Mr. Sam (ji) brilliant initiative!

I shall now start reading the pages one by one...

(here I suppose the usage of "..." was correct)

[Sar]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

I would not agree with you on this one Anup. I am pretty sure the phrase "to get tied up in knots" has no relation to putting one's foot in his mouth.

As far as I have understood it, to get tied up in knots is either to get tongue-tied and confused, or to be up against a wall with no solution or reply OR to get very anxious and/or nervous about something.

I agree with Sam. Foot in mouth : This is used to describe someone who has just said something embarrassing, inappropriate, wrong or stupid.

Tie yourself (up) in Knots :
1. to become very confused or worried when you are trying to make a decision or solve a problem. They tied themselves in knots over the seating arrangements. (often + over)
2. to become very confused when you are trying to explain something. She tied herself up in knots trying to tell me how to operate the video recorder.

This is such a brilliant thread, great for scratching those dormant grey cells hey ?

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Heres another common Indianism - i'd be interested to know how it originated. (Assuming that it is not "correct English").

Varun, Shruti and Bill are sitting at the table after lunch at a new restaurant.

Varun: Shruti, how did you find the food?
Shruti: It was really good, i loved my pasta.

Varun: Bill, how did you find the food?
Bill: Umm, i didn't really have to search much - actually, the waiter brought it right to me!

cya
R

You'll find the same usage, and the same joke, in British English. Here's a common example:

"How did you find America?"

"That was the easy bit: I just got off the plane and there it was!"

The nature of English, with its different meanings, or shades of meaning, for the same word, makes it very open to this kind of humour.

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

When you type on MS Word, If you type "to Whom.." It automatically displays a tag saying "To Whom It may Concern" I never use that. As far as i have been taught, It has always been "To Whomsoever It May Concern"

In this instance, I agree with MS Word (not something I say very often)!

To whom It may concern is the standard British business/legal English usage. There is no need for an -ever or a -soever.

Not being addressed to a particular whom just includes all the other possible whoms!

Another possible technical view is that it is addressing the whom that happens to be reading it at the time. They may be one or many, but that is not relevant.

[PhrozenFire]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

In this instance, I agree with MS Word (not something I say very often)!

To whom It may concern is the standard British business/legal English usage. There is no need for an -ever or a -soever.

Not being addressed to a particular whom just includes all the other possible whoms!

Another possible technical view is that it is addressing the whom that happens to be reading it at the time. They may be one or many, but that is not relevant.

. Your logic makes complete sense. However, it seemed to me 'To whom...' was the American form of usage. If it is the standard British business/legal usage as well, I wonder why and how 'whomsoever' came to be so popularly used!

[shankar.balan]

well said Ram

Auric Goldfinger - rather sinister chap eh?

I love that statement he made in the movie. "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action." - the actual quote from Ian Fleming.

Incidentally, a coincidence can be described as an unique concatenation of circumstances - a la Wodehouse's inimitable Jeeves.

Originally Posted by Ram

A happenstance is a chance happening or event. [happen + (circum)stance]

A coincidence is an accidental coinciding set of events that only appears to have been pre-arranged.
By a strange coincidence we were both enroute to Pune.

In reference to his second encounter with James Bond, the character Auric Goldfinger says that unexpected meetings like theirs follow a pattern: "Once is happenstance, Twice is coincidence, Three times is enemy action, Mr. Bond"

yes - to get one's self tied up in knots is usually a description of a no win scenario when one is up against a wall with no solution in sight.

putting one's foot in one's mouth is generally used when describing a situation where someone has committed a social gaffe.

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

I would not agree with you on this one Anup. I am pretty sure the phrase "to get tied up in knots" has no relation to putting one's foot in his mouth.

As far as I have understood it, to get tied up in knots is either to get tongue-tied and confused, or to be up against a wall with no solution or reply OR to get very anxious and/or nervous about something.

Thats funny
Sometimes here in BLR they say STRAITTU -

and in the Nilgiris once when asking for directions, I was told by a local passerby in Tamil, "saar, go there and you will see a "straight corner" and then take it the right" - left me rather flummoxed I must admit, until we reached there and realised that it was a slightly squiggly road with a fork.

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

I've often heard that in Bangalore.

Strite go.

And I'm not sure if that's a compromise between right and straight.

In Northern and Western India a lot of people say - "If you go to see...." - I think this is a literal translation of "Dekhe Jaye to..." Am I right?

then many people say "close the light" - literal translation of "Batti Bandh Karo" - amazing - luckily they dont say "Burn the light" as a literal translation of "Batti Jala Do"

then that most brilliant Indian-ism - Prepone as an opposite of Postpone - why should one not use this brilliantly logical word? I believe it has recently been accepted as an addition into the Oxford Dictionary.

What about cousin brother and cousin sister? Again a brilliant Indian invention. Why should one baldly say cousin and leave it at that?

What about ones like "Phillum" or "Filim" instead of Film
Then "I does not know saar"

On the golf course many people regularly say to the caddies - "Phive I-Run Dhe Dho" - Iron pronounced incorrectly with the stress on the "r".

And if you dont mind my pointing it out DerAlte - the word you've used is actually supposed to be "penchant" and not penchance.

Originally Posted by DerAlte

[Very similar to the Amdavadi/Vadodara penchance to pronounce the 'gue' at the end of a word as 'gayu'. Now imagine how 'fatigue' is pronounced]

like the "Caution - Power Break" signs on the backs of our dear old lorries. or "AC- No Hand Signal" - on the backs of Tourist Cabs or the ubiquitous "HORN OK PLEASE" behind our lorries and buses along with a wicked looking Rakshasa's mug.

Originally Posted by vnabhi

I am shocked to see the number of members on this forum who spell 'brakes' as 'breaks'.

what about that archaic and interesting "abusive epithet" - "You misbegotten son of an intemperate Camel!!!" - similar abuses usually occur in the Tintin series (atleast in the unexpurgated versions).

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

gotten is a strange word: common in USA English, but long-forgotten in UK English, except when we quote the saying, Ill-gotten gains.

hey i forgot

"what's your good name?" - clearly this must be a literal translation of App ka Shubh Naam Kya Hai?

[vnabhi]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

what about that archaic and interesting "abusive epithet" - "You misbegotten son of an intemperate Camel!!!" - similar abuses usually occur in the Tintin series (atleast in the unexpurgated versions).

Like 'Thundering typhoons' or 'blistering barnacles'? Don't remember others as it's been almost 2 decades since I read Tintin comics.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

then many people say "close the light" - literal translation of "Batti Bandh Karo" - amazing - luckily they dont say "Burn the light" as a literal translation of "Batti Jala Do"

Please refer to my earlier post on this, which reads as:-
"Hmm, reminds me of a South Indian pal who was educated in Bihar. He said 'open the fan' (fan kholo), and I remember responding with 'aint got no screw-driver'."

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by PhrozenFire

. Your logic makes complete sense. However, it seemed to me 'To whom...' was the American form of usage. If it is the standard British business/legal usage as well, I wonder why and how 'whomsoever' came to be so popularly used!

I think that some Americans and some Indians value a word according to how many syllables it has! Upgradation being my most-hated example!

Originally Posted by vnabhi

Please refer to my earlier post on this, which reads as:-
"Hmm, reminds me of a South Indian pal who was educated in Bihar. He said 'open the fan' (fan kholo), and I remember responding with 'aint got no screw-driver'."

Did you have to slow the radio so you could hear what he said?

[shankar.balan]

i collect tintin and asterix too - this is a bit off topic but I love the names.

good to forget the world around you sometimes and go back to childhood though some of the puns and allusions in both tintin and asterix are more likely to be appreciated by Adults

some of the names in Asterix are fantastic as are tha characters these names are matched to- I think the entire credit must go to the translators in this case!

prawnsinaspix - "prawns in aspic"
timandahaf - "tim and a half" and the others - telegraf, fotograf, riffraff etc

then tibia,fibula and metatarsus - bones in the human body

and the Roman chaps - Marcus Ginantonicus - "Gin and Tonic"
Caius Fatuous - "Fatuous"
Centurion Gaius Veriambitius -"very ambitious"

The Egyptian Architects- Artifis and Edifis

The Greek - "Iam Diabetes, a guide"

not to forget the Gauls - Getafix, Unhygienix, Fulliautomatix, Cacofonix, Vitalstatistix etc

Originally Posted by vnabhi

Like 'Thundering typhoons' or 'blistering barnacles'? Don't remember others as it's been almost 2 decades since I read Tintin comics.

I read that one - literal translation!

Originally Posted by vnabhi

Please refer to my earlier post on this, which reads as:-
"Hmm, reminds me of a South Indian pal who was educated in Bihar. He said 'open the fan' (fan kholo), and I remember responding with 'aint got no screw-driver'."

Note from the Team-BHP Support Staff : Please use the "edit" button if posting within 15 minutes of the first post, instead of creating another back-to-back post.

Also use "Multi Quote" option for quoting Multiple posts.

[Maverick1977]

Price & Worth - Synonyms
Priceless & Worthless - Antonyms
No wonder English is a funny language

[shankar.balan]

thats a fine thing you've posted - OFF TOPIC (SORRY)- my sister married into a Telugu family and within 6 months into her marriage she learnt the Telugu language. She speaks it fluently. I think it is a question of attitude thats all.
I ve been trying to learn Kannada since I live in Bangalore now - but Im learning very slowly. However, I do my best to speak to local fruit vendors, auto rickshaw drivers and so on, whenever I get the chance. Since most of the grocery shop people appear to be from Kerala, atleast I get a chance to air out my Malayalam!

Originally Posted by Samurai

There was a Tamil girl in my office in 1996, she had freshly moved to Bangalore from a small Tamilnadu town. She didn't know a word of Kannada. A year later she fell in love and married a local colleague. When I met the couple again in 1998 in USA, I was shocked to see her hold near perfect conversation in Kannada. If one is constantly exposed to a language, I feel it is hard not to pickup the language.

My recently deceased aunt who lived 50 years of her married life in Mumbai could speak better Marathi and Hindi than her mother tongue Tulu. In fact her Tulu was always sprinkled with Marathi words.

Hmm, I think we are getting away from English grammar which is the real topic here...