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Just as a perspective.

One can choose to lock up 3 - 5 Cr of Capital if one looks at the prevailing prices around South East Central Bangalore.

Or

One can choose to pay 80K or 100K a month worth of rental.

If 3 Cr, assume around 7% rate of return one gets say 21 lacs out of it in a year.

If 100K per month rental, one is spending 12 lac in a year.

Worth thinking about.
More so, if there is no Next Gen and no other major obligation.

(This is a piece of wisdom imparted to me over casual conversations with a Senior neighbour of mine whom I meet on my walks and whom I talk to very often, largely to shoot the breeze on general topics. This topic came up simply because of the furious and fast paced ‘rash’ of construction around us in the neighbourhood.)

Interesting take on house purchase. Something that makes absolute financial sense but fails the peace of mind parameter for the majority.

Just for some perspective: do you live on rent in Bengaluru?

If yes, why; if no, why not?

The choices to be a ‘renter’ in some suitable home (for anyone at all) could be motivated by multi-fold reasons.

1. Location.
2. Access to things and places.
3. Sheer Habit. (Ask any elder and you’ll understand)
4. Overall Cost efficiency. (As outlined earlier) (liquid vs illiquid - Op-ex vs Cap-ex.)
5. Some may never have had access to capital for down payment and perhaps may not be eligible for loans for properties which are in line with their aspirations. (Champagne Taste on a Beer Budget.) And some may not want to be on ‘loan’. (Loan-Phobia)
6. Less management headaches.
7. Nomadic tendencies (cage-claustrophobia).
8. Inability to decide where one wishes to park long term.
9. Nature of transferable job or the psychological need for the freedom to choose employment or life activity.
10. Ability to move and relocate as per will and wish.
11. A wish to be relatively free and unencumbered.
12. Avoidance of the black-hole-like opacity of Indian property dealings.
13. Some people are just ‘rootless’ like those ‘landless labourers’.
14. Some are just not wishing to put down ‘any roots’ at all - they may want to keep their options open.
15. Some have a positive ‘phobia’ about being ‘tied down’.
16. Some simply ‘don't care’ what the conventional world wisdom may think or say.
17. Some may have evolved long ago into the ‘usage based/ user engagement’ thought process long before it became a ‘buzzword’. A bit like opting for leasing/ renting a car or Uber-ing/ Ola-ing it everywhere). Can enjoy the use of the machine (or a house) and the convenience of it without the capital outlay.
18. Anyone who has had stints outside of India however short or long, would most probably have been a ‘renter’ rather than an owner. And anyone similarly whose work profile has taken them across cities in India would typically have been a ‘renter’ or recipient of ‘Company Accommodation’.
19. Some may be ‘hybrids’ - buy, own and rent out while living somewhere else on rent themselves.
20. Some may have simply bought properties of a different profile to what is suitable for their own use. (Consider the possibility of being able to afford only a single floor 3 or 4 bedroom place or so, in a nice location, but preferring to live on rent in a larger 4 bedroom villa or independent house in an equally nice location, for whatever reason(s).)
21. Some may simply be so secure in theirselves that they don’t need or want to ‘conform’ or even ‘wish’ to ‘prove’ their ‘worth’ to other external people, by buying and owning property.
22. Some may simply be ‘Happy go lucky’ and be judged to be ‘fools’ by others.
23. Some may subscribe to ‘Squatter’s Rights’.

Consider this quote from the poet John Dryden - “There’s a pleasure, sure, in being Mad, that None but Madmen know! “

End of the day there is no right or wrong answer to this. It is all about what works for each individual.

I live on rent in South Bangalore to stay close to my in-laws, even though I have an own flat 7 kms away.

Interestingly I have moved twice within Bangalore in the last 7 years, to stay closer to work. In both these flats the owners moved to a rental flat within Bangalore while I enjoyed the prime locality flats at 2.5% cost (vis-a-vis owning it). In the first case, the owner moved from a 2 bhk to 3 bhk (as their parents came to live with them); in the second case, it was to get closer to their kids's school.

Those who think buying a flat brings in stability, think really hard.

@shankar_balan & DigitalOne, isn't there a difference in already owning a piece of residence and then living on rent elsewhere to fulfill a specific need VS living on rent without owning/intending to ever own a house of one's own?

Even our own Kuvempu of the Vishmanava fame, thought it fit to build a home for himself even after steadfastly proclaiming:

I feel that rather than Dryden, it is Naipaul's Mr.Biswas who should be remembered in the context of this discussion.

:)

Hi
Looks like my feeble attempt at humour fell flat on this ‘serious’ topic of Home and Hearth.
1. Cannot read the first reference hence that is lost on me.
2. Haven’t read Naipaul hence the second reference is also lost on me.
In the matter of owning vs renting, One Man’s meat will always be Another’s Poison.
Different strokes for different folks.

Au contraire, I love your deadpan humour. There are very few posts that are as thought out, arranged and articulated as yours.

:thumbs up

Yet, I find that you chose to skip my one pointed query.

:D

Being an itinerant government servant and currently living in the seventeenth abode in the forty first year of my human life, I cannot but stress the importance of having a place that I can call my own. One can rent a limousine occasionally, but the beater is the one that will take you to the hospital in the middle of the night.

As you implied, what is good for geese may not be good for gander. (1) I can understand, (2) pls look up A House for Mr. Biswas.

It is very important to own a house somewhere. It is better to own it soon, best to own it now. Inflation is not imaginary, nor is homelessness.

Home is where the Heart & Hearth is!

Several Seniors in the family had transferable jobs including my Dad. We loved all the homes in all the places we lived in and the lifestyle that we enjoyed throughout, but somehow we never felt a sense of insecurity about permanence or the lack of it.

Probably because Nothing IS permanent except ‘Death and Taxes’ as the great Ben Franklin is purported to have said.

This is also borne out by the ever-changing fortunes of the extended family. What was once, (by the standards of conventional thinking and societal wisdom), a really well-established, well-known and respected, close-knit and financially ‘feather-cushioned’ family, has been steadily done to dust and scattered to the seven winds in a matter of the last 9 decades. Of course there have also been and continue to be, plenty of highs and successes along with some troughs too. Just like the waves of the ocean. The trick is to ‘bob’ along like a little sailboat does.

As you have pointed out, this kind of experience and in a sense, the lack of these perceived ‘anchors’, may cause some of us to seek permanence by way of acquiring immovable properties. And equally may cause some of us to simply ‘wing it’ and generally enjoy life while they can.

As I said earlier in some post(s), yes I have also fallen prey to the tide of peer pressure and judgement and opinion, to going out, buying and ‘owning’ some property (ies) here and there, which I do not choose to live in at the moment. I am also a practical subscriber to the philosophies of ‘liquidity’ and ‘Op-Ex’. That ought to answer your ‘pointed’ question. The reasons for all of this are truly multifold and you can ‘read between the lines’, if you will, from my earlier post(s).

Yes, I will look up and even read ‘A House for Mr Biswas’ as part of my own mind-opening process.
Yes I agree that Home is where the Heart and Hearth is. But it need not be an ‘Owned’ Home.

Yes, one may own a Home but may not live in it or wish to live in it. Yes, Inflation is not imaginary. I definitely resonate with that. Just consider that a Villa in Palm Meadows in Bangalore in 2003-2004 could be had for Rs 32 Lacs. Today perhaps it may cost 15 Crores with none available.

Homelessness is also not imaginary, yes. One must respect that fact. But one should not become ‘fear-driven’ or ‘spooked’ by it and a victim to such fear-driven thinking. If not here, today, there will always very likely be somewhere else, tomorrow. Therefore,
‘Soon’ is relative.
(Nothing is permanent, remember?)

Leaving you here, my friend, with some more idiotic attempts at feeble humour. But you’ll probabky recognise them to be extremely Topical, as the World of Tintin always is!:cool:

This is in continuation of my musing on Bangalore property. My musings on real estate investments in Chennai, Visakhapatnam and other cities some time later.

I have decided to leave Bangalore for good as planning to relocate back to silicon valley of USA. I kept my Villa besides ITPL in whitefield for sale on No broker including designer furniture brought from California in a ship. This is a paid service of 8K for 3 months. The villa was bought around 13 years back for 1 C and I am expecting now 3 C. In the first one month, more than 100 people visited the property. It became overwhelming for me to show all the customers all rooms in a 3 storeyed building. My personal observation regarding the psyche of customers mostly from IT is that they are casually looking to see the market as it came as a shock to all new buyers from October 1 when guideline values have increased by huge percentage near ITPL. One year back, my Villa valuation was around 1.75 C. Now, in 2023 December , the people are hoping to bargain at around 2C. They just missed the bus of affordable real estate by a few months. Now they cannot get even an empty land for 2 C in this part of Bangalore.

Due to overwhelming response of visitors who are not able to digest the price increase, I have asked No broker to remove my ad for one month and put it back again to see if any genuine buyers who have digested the inevitable situation will come terms and plunge to buy. In any case, I am not in any hurry to sell as I will lock my Villa and go to USA. I think this attitude of sellers not dropping prices is also another factor for this present situation.

I personally don’t blame No broker for my present situation as they are doing a perfect job giving me updates etc.

Young people have to pay their JEE/NEET coaching loans, then their college loans, and now with super high rents and real estate prices this. All this does is lock us to slavery to pay those monthly EMIs and sucks out the last of the innovation that Indian youth has to offer.

Buying an independent house or a flat in a 'tier 1' society is nothing but a joke. Have fun sorting out power backup and other nonsense in an independent house that should be a given in a metro city. This city closes its parks right when school kids finish their school, tuition and have time to play outside. Public parks don't even get built anymore because mummy doesn't want her fair kid play with the dark kids from poorer backgrounds (Of course the economics of privatising land is the main reason for that, but you get my social point here). This awful city cannot even figure out that share autos can eliminate the bulk of ola and uber car traffic on roads in areas like Indiranagar, Koramangala, HSR, and will instead insist on putting up on no parking signs in every commercial road so that the police can legally extort people every month end, This city will make arbitrary roads one way to cater to ever growing SUV traffic in a city once known for having weather so good, you did not need air conditioning. But sure, 2cr houses give you peace of mind amirite.

Most highrises have nightmarish security rules that photograph every single visitor including your friends like a prison mugshot. Educated boomers cannot stand the sight of their maids using the same elevators as people living there, and yet will litter the commons like it is their god given right. These lands are approved for high rise development by city bureaucrats and yet somehow do not have city water connection by the time of occupancy and need to ferry water through trucks. They have 'swimming pools' that are can barely hold 10 people at a time, let alone be useful enough to put in a couple of laps. And of course, no pools are deep enough for diving and with parents unwilling to take even the smallest iota of responsibility for their kids' behaviour, we can't even use terraces past sundown, so I have to kiss my dreams of diving into a 10m deep pool goodbye. But sure 1cr flats makes me feel like I am living in a cultured, sophisticated community full of passionate people amirite.

These are the cities that boomers collectively built with their so-called wisdom and experience with which they are quick to hide behind when we claim their ways are wrong. And if by some miracle they do accept their fault, they have nothing to say except, "well we had our hands full arranging two coppers from dirt to send you to school". Seriously, shame on our government, our parents, relatives, who force us to buy a 'house' in these terrible terrible cities, people who 'invest' in what is supposed to be a basic human necessity, everyone who is a part of this racket. You will all reap what you have sown in 40 years.

I don't quite see the point of your rant. Land privatization started looking before the boomer generation. If you think about it another way, the point of kingdoms and wars in many cases haa been about making the land their (victors) own. Its not like then equitable land distribution or ensuring everyone had a house was happening. Has the situation changed significantly with the modern countries coming about with inviolable borders etc? Land and by consequence the opportunity to own some to build a house/home has always been a distant dream for a large part of the population and continues to be so today as well in my opinion.

Yes in our country the problem is more exacerbated with the growing rich/poor divide and lop-sided development of our urban cities. But this didn't happen overnight and while it's easy to tar everyone with the same brush in anger, frustration and maybe disappointment, I don't accept that everyone is being "forced" into buying a home - affordable or otherwise. Even if some in the new generation are being pressured by parents, relatives, peers or whoever, I believe most of them have the smarts to do the homework/analysis and either jump in knowing what they are getting into. Or push back if it doesn't align with their view of things.

Yes, buying a home in today's Indian cities is more and more prohibitively expensive, but it's not like blaming everyone else for this situation is going to get anywhere. Both my adult kids are very clear that they'll not buy because they want the freedom to live and work anywhere and not get tied down simply because of a house. Neither can afford one today anyway, but that's not the point.

Many of us will end up have to see what the future will bring in 40 years hence. I for one am not looking forward to it given what we humans as a species have wrought on our only home.

There, that's my rant done.

P.S - expressing differing opinions and thoughts are perfectly fine, but keeping to the intent of the OP on this thread might be more useful

Yes. Yes, it has. With how weak our passport is I am sure everyone knows this pain if they try to travel internationally legally.

Just because something has been the case for thousands of years does not mean it should remain so. We can be better, we can do better. Construction tech has improved a lot, we can build buildings with tens of storeys now. Surely, land privatisation and acquisition is not the bottleneck anymore, it is public policy. Boomers will instantly point out highrise buildings have poor UDS and other stuff, but you know what, all I (and my friends) want is a place to live damnit, not fantasise about paper value of a building which if built well should last a good half century. I know boomers are insistent about what I call 'paper value of land' because they want to pass it on to their kids. I say, if housing is affordable, you don't have to. We can all be happy. There is nothing stopping us from expanding Bangalore in each direction for the next 20km. That is a lot of building area. Leave some space for parks, build fun stuff in every area, public transport in every area and even Whitefield, Electronic city can be genuinely as desirable (not due to something as foolishly survivalist as supply and demand) as JP Nagar, Malleshwaram.

Have you ever thought that they 'prefer to be free' precisely because they cannot afford homes. Your kids might be telling you they prefer to be free, but that might partially be a way to brush things aside.

None of my friends have a driving licence. A lot of them don't know how to ride a even something as simple as scooter. What is the point when we all live in PGs and cannot even park a scooter they say, and they are not wrong (and also stuff like depreciating assets, insurance, legal liability, cost of riding gear, helmet hair does not help either). Most of my friends own laptops only (you can run enterprise tier servers from a simple 2BHK) because the safety of a desktop cannot be guaranteed in a PG. I had dreams of running ZFS raid 10 and had to give up the dream once I realised that I cannot fully finish a ZFS scrub (which takes days when you are looking at 20TB of storage) if there is a power cut (I also made a few expensive mistakes in my setup so there is that too, I am not fully blaming our finicky power supply). These are only two of the countless examples you see of people giving up their hobbies. These people are precisely why Bangalore is filled with empty malls and pubs because that is the only thing we are allowed (gently guided to) to spend money on. Imagine, yet another generation, this time, one who had real wealth in their hands grow up to be the next set of boomers without any real hobbies (a lot of boomers don't have many hobbies which is why they keep fiddling with their adult children's lives). Economically, imagine the opportunity cost of wasting your best years without exploring homelabs, automobiles and even basic things like cooking.


For every story of perfectly alright adults that Indian parents have raised, there are dozens of kids broken on the inside. It is not easy to go against a parent's will for indulging them a little, especially when you know your parents really did work hard to get you this far. If you truly have good adult kids that have a good relationship with you, good for you mate. You succeeded in life where many couldn't. Take a bow. Enjoy Christmas. No snark intended here.

Then I hope you will be there as witness to current early teens being morbidly obese, necks drooping down their back, hands with carpal tunnel, having social skills of a computer that understands only ones and zeros because their middle class parents got priced out by richer parents in securing playgrounds and sports for their kids. I hear stories of school children and how poorly parented they are compared to me and its an absolute horror show.

To all renters, keep fighting the good fight guys. Tennyson once said "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all". I say it is better to have lived (a full life of hobbies) and lost (the real estate game) than never to have lived at all.

I understand my sentiments might not be popular in a forum mostly full of people older than me, a demographic that has more or less already made it as house owners and have enough space to park a car or two going by the self selection of car enthusiasts here. My post here is to spread awareness on how young people suffer without good affordable housing and offer alternatives to how it can be improved. I did not just rant for the lols in my post. I did mention how public transport and improving boomer attitudes are easy wins we can still get, as early as tomorrow. There are plenty of rich people here on this forum, some influential ones too. Plus this is an open forum anyone can reach through google. If my post and ideas reach at least one person with power to change things, it is worth it. I understand that calling old people boomers is not particularly constructive to this discussion either, but its precisely these 'its always been like this. so what. gonna cry' arguments from older people that make life so frustrating.

Mentioning this once at the end because it is worth highlighting I think. I know boomers are insistent about what I call 'paper value of land' because they want to pass it on to their kids. I say, if housing is affordable, you don't have to. We can all be happy.

@hikozaru - you make really genuinely good points in your responses. And I sincerely appreciate your candor and thoughtfulness in articulating the current state of affairs on this topic.

I don't mind being called a 'boomer' or an older person as that's not the point here. While I can understand the state of mind of today's generation, all I was trying to point out it is not something that was solely caused by yesterday's boomers or the folks in their 40s-60s today. I am sure many middle-aged or older folks can attest to the sea of challenges they faced when are trying to buy land and/or build a home. While the prices sound astronomical today, believe me, when I bought my home, the prices were astronomical for me then. Had to go through the grind of large home loans, stress of EMIs, insecurity of whether loan could be cleared in time, dot-com bubble bust, 2009 financial market meltdown etc. I guess you get the gist of what I am trying to say. Not to trivialize or invalidate your comments, but every generation has had its share of issues to work through when it comes to land and housing. Some more, some less and probably the current situation is more alarmist looking at the future.

Again, I would only say that tarring all with the same brush - focused mainly on notional land value and looking to pass wealth to next generation, lack of hobbies and actively driving their children's lives - is too broad a generalization. Leave aside globally, India or even Bangalore for that matter, this particular notion cannot be true for all members on this forum itself. Like yourself, I am sure there would be some folks here that have similar aspirations to get a self-owned affordable home earlier in life than later. And similarly, there are other members who may have achieved the home-owner tag recently, some still working towards it and likely some who have multiple properties etc. In most cases, they have got there by their own efforts and hard work - maybe a little bit of luck in some cases.

I only mentioned my kids because I see their interests closely mirror what you have mentioned - excessive screen time, minimal social interaction within family etc. Regarding real estate, affordability is not the main reason they are not for home ownership. With globalization, the potential opportunities available and what one can do if they are adaptable/flexible appears more attractive than looking to invest in land/build or flat to live/rent. And there is a plethora of other investment options that align more with their mindset which is not wrong in my opinion. While your words are kind, I very much doubt that they would agree to having a great relationship with their parents. Once more I digress from the point.

The home buying related problems you highlight are well known already and this requires a concerted effort with involvement of all stakeholders in society (you and I included!) to come up with solutions for the short-term (if at all possible) and longer term. It is not something that the government is going to be able to do by itself. Trusting all other involved parties to have the greater good will be a start point. The 'boomers' you are mentioning are only one a small cog in this wheel and assigning the problem as created by them doesn't move anything forward other than a back-and-forth exchange which doesn't help with this situation.

I only wish that in my lifetime, we in India specifically are able to move the needle significantly forward in ensuring a wider and more equitable distribution of all our resources across our burgeoning population. And not just leave it rhetorical slogans around fastest growing economy, age demographic advantage.

@ninjatalli - my apologies for hijacking the thread with your challenges in finding a home with your requirements. I end my general musings here and if I get a promising lead for you, will let you know :)

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars -Oscar Wilde

The problems you point out are genuine but the times are most certainly better than before on every parameter except for pollution. Nobody is sorry for not making it any easier for you.

Hi I am from the boomer generation. I do have multiple properties which I have rented out and I am living in a rented property in one of the busy location but with a green garden, a decent swimming pool tennis court and excellent community. I do have significant peer pressure to "own" a home, which I refuse to budge. My take is it is criminal to own a single home or villa. It is environmentally and socially damaging. A good 100 villa community could have been developed into a 1000apartmemt complex with excellent garden and shared amenities. And also to supply service the villas or individual house we spend much more fuel and manpower than a highrise Apartment.
Yes i do not own my floor or roof or wall, none of us ever will own the six feet land we would end up in, but I own my life and I owe my life to my fellow citizens. But Iam From the boomer generation. rl: