[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

I agree with most of your post except this little note. Some of the best managers that I have known are not really people/people in the classical sense of the term - ie being extroverted. They are generally thoughtful & analytical introverts who are really good at their domain and are content to stay in the background when needed so that the team can get the limelight.

By saying People People my intent was not to say extroverted at all.
A good Manager needs to care genuinely about his or her ‘people’. The latter part of your post bears me out.

[sgmuser]

I am not following closely what is being said in the news regarding this. I am still not sure how come in such a young age, within 3 months of stress, she had met with that extreme destiny. My awareness or understanding is that, this takes time, few years at least. Within 3 months, the body starting to crumble like this under pressure is something unfathomable. A medical expert could throw some light on this. Time is changing!

She might have had similar work load while preparing for the CA exams itself, because that is nothing less to start with. I could be wrong but I wish the learnings from this episode becomes a lesson for others who thinks physical body can withstand whatever you throw at it. Still I find it really challenging to digest this episode.
I really feel for her and the parents. She achieved too much in an early age but she did not have the time to enjoy fruits of it.

I wish the truth comes out with more investigation from health angle which helps others in similar situation. I see my daughter in a management course suffers a lot with back pain due to long laptop hours, less sleeps, stress due to issues with the projects and conflicts arriving out of it etc. etc. Very sad, these kids get the chronic back pain at such an young age which I got only at around 40 or so. Forget about other lifestyle diseases they might come across before hitting 40 with this kinds of lifestyle. Continuous laptop usage is a big health hazard for the back and immobility is as bad as diabetes. Hopefully, the future potentials learn to adopt and find ways to over come them rather than it cripples their day to day simple pleasures.

[aayusht]

My 2 paise (or cents)

Overwork or dedication to work or working in high pressure environment on a regular basis is more of an Asian expectation.

Quoting a few examples from Asia:

1. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...overwork-link/
   
   
2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...hours-overtime
   
3. https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...-of-long-hours

Sharing an experience when I briefly worked for a European client 2 years back.
- I was trying to help him understand that the timelines of the project were unrealistic and we needed more time & he responded in saying: "you guys (Indians) are used to it, arnt you, so whats the problem". Clearly the rest of the world also knows that Indians/Asian stretch working hours.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by aayusht

My 2 paise (or cents)

- I was trying to help him understand that the timelines of the project were unrealistic and we needed more time & he responded in saying: "you guys (Indians) are used to it, arnt you, so whats the problem". Clearly the rest of the world also knows that Indians/Asian stretch working hours.

So true. I have known Japanese and Koreans who slog for crazy hours much more than the Indians.

The Koreans in particular had very low sleep. They would work at Samsung HQ in Suwon till 12 in the night...come back to Seoul, then go to drink with colleagues till 2-3am, go home and be back at 7am for the bus ride again to Suwon. Of course it was very male dominated workplace.

[sunbaj]

Came across another sad incident that happened in Chennai. Indian corporate world specially IT needs to think about the work ethics.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India...274db3e19&ei=5

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by aayusht

My 2 paise (or cents)...Overwork or dedication to work or working in high pressure environment on a regular basis is more of an Asian expectation.....Sharing an experience when I briefly worked for a European client 2 years back.
- I was trying to help him understand that the timelines of the project were unrealistic and we needed more time & he responded in saying: "you guys (Indians) are used to it, arnt you, so whats the problem". Clearly the rest of the world also knows that Indians/Asian stretch working hours.

Other than the fact that we are a developing economy and are way overpopulated, doesn't it look like the famous work:life balance and stop your work when the clock strikes of Europe depends on much of Asia slogging overtime on outsourced jobs?

Much like how much of the Western world stays clean and environment friendly, while bulk of the dirty manufacturing and industries stay in the developing world.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Other than the fact that we are a developing economy and are way overpopulated, doesn't it look like the famous work:life balance and stop your work when the clock strikes of Europe depends on much of Asia slogging overtime on outsourced jobs?

Much like how much of the Western world stays clean and environment friendly, while bulk of the dirty manufacturing and industries stay in the developing world.

Good point.
Its like the ‘climate agenda’ and ‘emissions’ and ‘carbon neutrality’.
The developed world (rich world) was early to consume, grow and exit and now are able to sit on the pulpit and preach and impose strictures. Whereas the developing world (poor world) are still ascending their respective consumption cycles.

[Fuldagap]

A bank executive, reportedly working for HDFC private sector bank, died after falling off her chair at work. Her colleagues cited "work pressure" as a possible reason behind her death, Lokmat Times Nagpur reported. A postmortem was reportedly conducted. Mint could not independently verify the reports.

The woman was identified as Sadaf Fatima. Accoridng to Dainik Bhaskar, she was posted as Additional Deputy Vice-President at HDFC Bank’s Vibuti Khand branch in Gomtinagar.

Source

[Mystic]

There is news today about Shashi Tharoor’s opinion in TOI:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../113696125.cms

The ground reality of the big 4 companies is very clear as they are the biggest auditors in the world, very powerful and knowledgeable. They make statements in such a way that it stands right in the court of law.

During my tenure at big 4 couple of decades back, I asked the partner in all hands meeting in front of all employees. We usually work more than 8 hours per day and it is a fact everybody agrees. How many hours do I need to put on the time sheets which are sent for approval to the client. The answer from the lady partner in a very clear crisp language is as follows:

“Work only for the hours you are reporting in the time sheet and Report in the timesheet only the hours you are working.”

The above answers is legally perfect. It is very tricky to justify that one is working more than 8 hours and can document the output by minutes on what exactly one worked in case of an audit. There may be times when we take up personal work or do multi tasking for other clients and the employee is at a disadvantage. Hence the psychology of the employee says to work for 12 hours but report only 8 hours in time sheets to be on safe side as there is a fear of being laid off in case client complaints on the timesheet hours and the employee is investigated.

In reality only in extreme conditions, with the pre approval of client, consultants are allowed to report more than 8 hours officially as it may come under the radar of labour department.

[dragonfire]

Who came up with the 8 hour workday? I mean, I personally can never do more than 5. And most days all I do is 2-4 hours of work. I have spent 25 years in the industry and I hardly see anybody actually working for more than 4-5 hours. Rest of the time is spent on chit chat, lunch/tea breaks, browsing random sites, doing personal work etc.

And, every person is different. Some person will be able to complete a task in an hour which I may take 2. The onus is on the individual to determine how much one is willing to toil to keep himself afloat. That your peer is putting long hours at work does not mean you need to beat him. If you do decide to compete with him and let yourself burn out at the end of the day, then you are to blame, not him.

Choice is not an illusion, it is real. It just depends on what you are willing to sacrifice to exercise that choice.

[Noctis]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Who came up with the 8 hour workday? I mean, I personally can never do more than 5. And most days all I do is 2-4 hours of work. I have spent 25 years in the industry and I hardly see anybody actually working for more than 4-5 hours.

The eight hour workday divided into two four hour shifts was introduced in the context of factory labour, which mostly involved routine/repetitive physical tasks.

As you rightly pointed out, it has no real relevance in the service industry but unfortunately many industry leaders are going the other way to try and extend it even further.

[kushagra452]

I wonder how Elon Musk manages to run multiple multi billion $$ companies, play video games (top ranked player in Diablo), spend time with his kids (6?) and help Donald Trump become the President. Insane capacity to grind, absorb all the pressure and come out on top! He really is a super human.

I guess the human body and mind is much more capable than we can ever imagine.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by kushagra452

I wonder how Elon Musk manages to run multiple...

Whether or not this particular person really manages to do it all, or he's great at assembling a team and delegating, taking one example of a particular individual, or even the few at the top might not be the best thing.

I used to go for swimming lessons as a kid. Back in the 90s, there was very little concept of coaching or coaches who had any sort of training, or empathy. After 'imparting' some basic techniques, the coach at the public pool would just grab and chuck us kids off the middle diving board, into the deep end. Those who managed to paddle through stayed on and became pretty good swimmers (including me). Most kids were traumatized (including a friend of mine) and probably never went near the water again.

If you looked at only the kids who somehow made it through, you'd say he was a great coach and all his trainees 'managed' to do well. But the reality is that such people shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children!

Similarly, going by the final product, those who have made it to the top of the corporate food chain doesn't necessarily mean everyone is suited to that, should put themselves through that, or that there is nothing wrong with the work culture.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Who came up with the 8 hour workday? I mean, I personally can never do more than 5. And most days all I do is 2-4 hours of work. I have spent 25 years in the industry and I hardly see anybody actually working for more than 4-5 hours. Rest of the time is spent on chit chat, lunch/tea breaks, browsing random sites, doing personal work etc.

Not all industries are like that. I work in semiconductor devices and it is just not possible to complete things if you work say 5 hours a day. It is not that people are inefficient. It is the nature of task and the dynamics of the industry. We are directly competing with East Asian countries who have insane work ethic and you have to step-up to match them else you are out.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by am1m

I used to go for swimming lessons as a kid. Back in the 90s, there was very little concept of coaching or coaches who had any sort of training, or empathy. After 'imparting' some basic techniques, the coach at the public pool would just grab and chuck us kids off the middle diving board, into the deep end. Those who managed to paddle through stayed on and became pretty good swimmers (including me). Most kids were traumatized (including a friend of mine) and probably never went near the water again.

If you looked at only the kids who somehow made it through, you'd say he was a great coach and all his trainees 'managed' to do well. But the reality is that such people shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children!

Thats a great example and is completely rings true with me.

When I was 5-6 years old my mother's brother threw me into the deeper area of the beach in the Atlantic ocean to teach me how to swim. I had recently moved from India and had never seen a beach nor tasted salt water. I was traumatised by this experience and till this day I never learned how to swim and I get very nervous standing near any deep body of water. Whenever I get salt water in my nose or mouth in a beach I start to panic